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Thread: Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #6

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    Frankly, SG, and while the term may have very precise meanings for professionals, among the media and general public the term "sociopath" is so overused I think it's become meaningless.

    It certainly isnít a catch phase or a misuse of term by me when expressing my opinion.

    It is complex and has implications throughout the justice system most practically when it comes to release of diagnosed individuals and perceptions of their rehabilitation.

    It is important these disorders not be trivialized but understood by the general public both for their own safety and the safety of others.

    Sweeping the disorders under the rug especially as they are becoming more defined and understood is counterproductive to protecting society.

    To be dismissive of media and the general public for recognizing and referring to the disorders is an insult to all mental health professional who work to educate the public

    All imo

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  3. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jade View Post
    The lack of comparisons is self evident.

    There is no need to go off on a tangent to defend a comparison that is farfetched.
    RBBM: I am going to have to remember this sentence, as going off on tangents to defends far-fetched comparison seems to be a popular tactic which, I can only guess, is an attempt to deflect from evidence, and discourage people to use their common sense and look at the big picture.

    Jade, I am really appreciating your input--thought-provoking
    Last edited by flourish; 02-09-2011 at 06:14 PM. Reason: Changed some wording and added some words:)

    Unless specified otherwise and linked, my posts are simply random thoughts of mine, in no particular order, not directed at any post or poster, including but not limited to the ones directly above mine. My opinion only, yours may vary. IMO. JMO. IMHO. JMHO. MOO. Disclaimer, small print, asterisk, and etc.

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  5. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by SleuthyGal View Post
    That's a good point. I think 'sociopath' has come to be equated with someone seen as 'evil.' So that may be interchangeable. Either way, it's not intended as a term of endearment, that's for sure! ;-)
    A sociopath is someone that lacks the ability to experience empathy; someone that does not experience normal emotional responses, not someone that is evil.

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  7. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by trillian View Post
    Are you suggesting that AK, who was MK's roommate for only 6 weeks, should have been grieving the same way as a spouse or a parent?!!
    It is Amanda that on occasionally described Meredith as her good friend.

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  9. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    A sociopath is someone that lacks the ability to experience empathy; someone that does not experience normal emotional responses, not someone that is evil.
    The Definition of a Sociopath



    Sociopaths have little regard for the feelings of others and manipulate others in order to get what they desire. The term "sociopath" is no longer used in psychology and psychiatry, and the disorder is now called "antisocial personality disorder." People who have this disorder often have no sense of right or wrong and many only receive treatment when forced to by the judicial system, an employer or family member. The disorder is relatively rare, with approximately 0.6 percent of Americans affected, according to the National Institute of Mental

    Read more: The Definition of a Sociopath | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5067762_de...#ixzz1DVVauoTk

    Behavior

    People who have antisocial personality disorder may engage is such risky behavior as violence, vandalism, theft, bullying and cruelty to animals. They are skilled liars and often quite good at conning other people. They may be aggressive and violent, but show no remorse if they hurt other people. Sociopaths often react impulsively, failing to consider how their actions could harm themselves or others. Many have no respect for authority and have a history of losing jobs and being expelled from school. Drug and alcohol problems are common in people with antisocial personality disorders

    Read more: The Definition of a Sociopath | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5067762_de...#ixzz1DVVr80YX

  10. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by flourish View Post
    I've asked it before, and I'll ask it again: was she ever given a hair drug test?
    How long do benzos (or its metabolites or other evidence of its use) stay in the hair?
    I answered this

    90 days but has been known to stay in the hair for 25 years with just one drug use

    not to my knowledge

  11. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by trillian View Post
    How long should it take to get a false confession from a 20yr old college student interrogated in a language she didnt fully understand?

    Have you ever been a smart yet naive 20yr old girl studying abroad? I have. Have you ever been intimidated into signing something that was not true? I have. I can easily see how it happened.
    Good question. Amanda is supposed to be an intelligent, well educated woman from a good, albeit divorced, family. She was in an Italian police station, and appears to have severely underestimated the seriousness of the situation. After stretching and doing gymnastics, she was told to "cut it out" and at 11:30 pm placed in a nearby room - not a room equipped for interrogation (video). From here, we are to believe that Amanda was swarmed by 10 or more police officers who were yelling at her and hitting her. In less than two hours, she came up with an elaborate story about Patrick, Meredith, her fear of Patrick, Patrick's infatuation with Meredith, the scream, how she stood in the kitchen covering her ears but did not run to the nearby door for help when hearing the scream, and ... did I miss anything?

    Coerced confessions are typically situations where the details of the confession are fed by police to the accused. If police were feeding confession details to Amanda, why didn't they ensure that the story they gave her was consistent with the story from Raffaele, or coerce her into saying that she was involved in the actual attack - as that is certainly the police theory?

    There was a recent report on CNN about the NC forensic lab problems, and one of the cases was about a man with the mental abilities of a 7 year old. It took 9 hours to get a confession from him ... and then it was little more than the authority writing a statement and having him sign it ... and he incorrectly spelled his name. If a man with the mental ability of a 7 year old can withstand coercion for 9 hours, how can someone like Amanda cave after less than 2?

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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    It is Amanda that on occasionally described Meredith as her good friend.
    Fine. So how much grieving is normal for a "good friend" of 6 weeks?

    If she broke down in devastation each day, would that not seem odd given the short time they knew each other? There is just no way she had developed that type of emotional investment and heart-wrenching feelings of loss like that of a parent or close family and friends.

    Kissing her own boyfriend? Normal. And probably a reassuring gensture to her. It seemed sweet. They were NOT making out or anything.

    Buying underwear when you dont have any? Normal.

    Sticking your tongue out? Well if she was doing it at MK's body or to the police you would have a point. otherwise, normal.

    Cartwheels? Normal. You know, I was in a hospital recently in the waiting area for a few hours. The guy in the next row would get up, pace, and once got on the floor to do about 20 push ups. Other people were playing games. Sitting around waiting can be tough even when the circumstances are serious. Especially high energy people.

    Perhaps you would rather her not kiss, not wear underwear, and not be allowed to release some energy while she waited. For me it is all normal. Not even inappropriate, as many people on both sides may think.

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  15. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by flourish View Post
    I don't understand what you mean by an "anti-AK" site? Is that a site dedicated to hating AK or are you referring to sites which support her guilty conviction?
    Maybe it's ones that do it under the guise of "In Memory of Meredith Kercher"

  16. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by trillian View Post
    Fine. So how much grieving is normal for a "good friend" of 6 weeks?

    If she broke down in devastation each day, would that not seem odd given the short time they knew each other? There is just no way she had developed that type of emotional investment and heart-wrenching feelings of loss like that of a parent or close family and friends.

    Kissing her own boyfriend? Normal. And probably a reassuring gensture to her. It seemed sweet. They were NOT making out or anything.

    Buying underwear when you dont have any? Normal.

    Sticking your tongue out? Well if she was doing it at MK's body or to the police you would have a point. otherwise, normal.

    Cartwheels? Normal. You know, I was in a hospital recently in the waiting area for a few hours. The guy in the next row would get up, pace, and once got on the floor to do about 20 push ups. Other people were playing games. Sitting around waiting can be tough even when the circumstances are serious. Especially high energy people.

    Perhaps you would rather her not kiss, not wear underwear, and not be allowed to release some energy while she waited. For me it is all normal. Not even inappropriate, as many people on both sides may think.
    Either Amanda did not grieve the loss of her "good friend", or she grieved in a way not consistent with norms.

    It's funny ... when you put it that way, there's nothing wrong with what Amanda was doing. Let's put it in context now:

    Knox and her former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, both on trial for the murder, had "kissed and joked" at Perugia's police station, said Robyn Butterworth, 23. "There was laughter. She stuck her tongue out at Raffaele. They moved their chairs. She put her feet up on him, they were kissing and cuddling."

    A second witness, Amy Frost, thought Knox had "gone crazy," as she waited with Sollecito and the English students to be interviewed by the police.

    Both defendants deny the charges. Knox told investigators she returned from a night at Sollecito's flat in Perugia on 2 November 2007 to find Kercher's bedroom door locked and bloodstains in the bathroom, where she took a shower.

    Knox did not enter Kercher's bedroom when the door was finally opened in the presence of the police, but Butterworth said that when a second British friend, Natalie Hayward, commented at the police station that she hoped Kercher had not suffered, Knox replied: "What do you think? She ****ing bled to death."


    Ref: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...-kercher-trial


    Even Bremner tries to downplay Knox antics.

    Accounts of Knox doing splits and cartwheels as she awaited questioning by the police are a distortion of the behavior of a teenager exhibiting restlessness, Bremner argues, and depictions of a hypersexualized relationship with her "on-again, off-again" boyfriend Sollecito have been overly dramatized.

    Ref: http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...#ixzz1DVrEu8Ky

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  18. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allusonz View Post
    Maybe it's ones that do it under the guise of "In Memory of Meredith Kercher"
    "guise" ?? What makes you think it's not legitimate or sincerely in memory of MK?

    Unless specified otherwise and linked, my posts are simply random thoughts of mine, in no particular order, not directed at any post or poster, including but not limited to the ones directly above mine. My opinion only, yours may vary. IMO. JMO. IMHO. JMHO. MOO. Disclaimer, small print, asterisk, and etc.

  19. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    It is Amanda that on occasionally described Meredith as her good friend.
    In all fairness MK could not testify whether or not she thought of her as a friend or not

  20. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allusonz View Post
    Maybe it's ones that do it under the guise of "In Memory of Meredith Kercher"
    Meredith Kercher is the victim.

    Raffaele Sollecito, Rudy Guede and Amanda Knox are the convicted murderers. Seeking justice for the victim is what sites like this are typically about ... but for some strange reason, perhaps because it's hard to believe that 20 year old women can commit murder, one of the murderers has been painted as a victim.

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  22. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allusonz View Post
    In all fairness MK could not testify whether or not she thought of her as a friend or not
    Why not? She had no problem describing the murder as "yucky"

    "AMANDA KNOX yesterday startled the Italian court trying her for the murder of Meredith Kercher by saying the English student's death was “yucky, disgusting” and comparing it to crimes in CSI, the popular US television series"

    "Knox said she considered Kercher a friend. Had she suffered for the death of her friend, Maresca asked? “Yes, I was very shocked.” Did she remember Kercher in her daily life? “Yes I remember her; but, in the end I knew her for a month, and first of all I’m trying to get on with my life.”


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6493655.ece

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  24. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    So which is it??? The point was lack of ..... , was not the reason for the accusation against Patrick.

    Lack of food?
    Lack of sleep?
    Lack of water?
    Intimidation?
    Coercion?
    Naivety?
    Confusion?
    Pot haze?

    Can't have 'em all... especially after only 2 hours.

    Did you confess to being at a murder scene, allowing the killer into a cottage, then doing nothing to help your 'friend'???
    maybe none of them, maybe all of them

    or maybe simply a translation issue with a text message

  25. #141
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    http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

    DSM-IV Definition

    Antisocial personality disorder is characterized by a lack of regard for the moral or legal standards in the local culture. There is a marked inability to get along with others or abide by societal rules. Individuals with this disorder are sometimes called psychopaths or sociopaths.

    Diagnostic Criteria (DSM-IV)

    1. Since the age of fifteen there has been a disregard for and violation of the right's of others, those right's considered normal by the local culture, as indicated by at least three of the following:
    A. Repeated acts that could lead to arrest.
    B. Conning for pleasure or profit, repeated lying, or the use of aliases.
    C. Failure to plan ahead or being impulsive.
    D. Repeated assaults on others.
    E. Reckless when it comes to their or others safety.
    F. Poor work behavior or failure to honor financial obligations.
    G. Rationalizing the pain they inflict on others.

    2. At least eighteen years in age.

    3. Evidence of a Conduct Disorder, with its onset before the age of fifteen.

    4. Symptoms not due to another mental disorder.
    Lots more info at the link. Disclaimer: I am providing this information so the diagnostic criteria for an Antisocial Personality Disorder. I am not diagnosing anyone nor attempting to do so.

    Unless specified otherwise and linked, my posts are simply random thoughts of mine, in no particular order, not directed at any post or poster, including but not limited to the ones directly above mine. My opinion only, yours may vary. IMO. JMO. IMHO. JMHO. MOO. Disclaimer, small print, asterisk, and etc.

  26. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by flourish View Post
    Yeah, in the urine test given several days later.
    you forgot the blood tests

  27. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    One can't miss the irony that the prosecutor wants AK to serve additional time for slander, but the officials who told her she was HIV+ apparently go unpunished.
    yes this little piece of information is oft overlooked

  28. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by flourish View Post
    http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html



    Lots more info at the link. Disclaimer: I am providing this information so the diagnostic criteria for an Antisocial Personality Disorder. I am not diagnosing anyone nor attempting to do so.
    I personally don't believe anyone can label anyone with such a term unless they first have the medical expertise and secondly have been involved appropriately with the diagnosis. It is why i personally try never to pin a label on any individual
    Last edited by Allusonz; 02-09-2011 at 08:08 PM. Reason: add info

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  30. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Good question. Amanda is supposed to be an intelligent, well educated woman from a good, albeit divorced, family. She was in an Italian police station, and appears to have severely underestimated the seriousness of the situation. After stretching and doing gymnastics, she was told to "cut it out" and at 11:30 pm placed in a nearby room - not a room equipped for interrogation (video).
    This certainly could all be true.
    Quote Originally Posted by otto
    From here, we are to believe that Amanda was swarmed by 10 or more police officers who were yelling at her and hitting her. In less than two hours, she came up with an elaborate story about Patrick, Meredith, her fear of Patrick, Patrick's infatuation with Meredith, the scream, how she stood in the kitchen covering her ears but did not run to the nearby door for help when hearing the scream, and ... did I miss anything?
    We dont know how much she came up with since there is no recording but let's just say this part is true as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by otto
    Coerced confessions are typically situations where the details of the confession are fed by police to the accused. If police were feeding confession details to Amanda, why didn't they ensure that the story they gave her was consistent with the story from Raffaele, or coerce her into saying that she was involved in the actual attack - as that is certainly the police theory?
    It seems they were insinuating to her they had a suspicious text and solid proof she was there. They were threatening her with 30yrs in prison unless she came clean about what happened. We cannot know how much was "fed" to her without a recording.

    Quote Originally Posted by otto
    There was a recent report on CNN about the NC forensic lab problems, and one of the cases was about a man with the mental abilities of a 7 year old. It took 9 hours to get a confession from him ... and then it was little more than the authority writing a statement and having him sign it ... and he incorrectly spelled his name. If a man with the mental ability of a 7 year old can withstand coercion for 9 hours, how can someone like Amanda cave after less than 2?
    Perhaps an incompetent person takes longer to understand what police want from them? I dont really know. Comprehension would certainly be diminished.
    Look at Kevin Fox. He, a 27yr old father of two, caved a few hours after they told him they told him he lied and failed his voluntary Ld test (he didnt fail) and they had absolute proof that he did it (they didnt) but that if he admitted it was an accident, he could be let go on bond. Otherwise, he would have murder charges and go to prison for 30yrs (sound familiar?). Then he made up the details of how he accidently killed his 4yr old daughter Riley. How could that happen?
    Last edited by trillian; 02-09-2011 at 08:14 PM. Reason: grammar

  31. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allusonz View Post
    you forgot the blood tests

    I must have missed something in our previous conversations about the testing. I was under the impression that she was given one urine test several days after the murder and that was that.

    When did the blood test(s) occur?

    Unless specified otherwise and linked, my posts are simply random thoughts of mine, in no particular order, not directed at any post or poster, including but not limited to the ones directly above mine. My opinion only, yours may vary. IMO. JMO. IMHO. JMHO. MOO. Disclaimer, small print, asterisk, and etc.

  32. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allusonz View Post
    I personally don't believe anyone can label anyone with such a term unless they first have the medical expertise and secondly have been involved appropriately with the diagnosis. It is why i personally try never to pin a label on any individual

    Uh, hence the "Disclaimer: I am providing this information so the diagnostic criteria for an Antisocial Personality Disorder. I am not diagnosing anyone nor attempting to do so."

    I was very clear that I was providing further information that I thought would supplement the information you provided earlier...so if you're indicating that I was labeling someone, you are incorrect...were you labeling when you provided that information earlier?

    Unless specified otherwise and linked, my posts are simply random thoughts of mine, in no particular order, not directed at any post or poster, including but not limited to the ones directly above mine. My opinion only, yours may vary. IMO. JMO. IMHO. JMHO. MOO. Disclaimer, small print, asterisk, and etc.

  33. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allusonz View Post
    yes this little piece of information is oft overlooked
    Is there a link to the evidence that they lied to her about an HIV test(s)?

    Unless specified otherwise and linked, my posts are simply random thoughts of mine, in no particular order, not directed at any post or poster, including but not limited to the ones directly above mine. My opinion only, yours may vary. IMO. JMO. IMHO. JMHO. MOO. Disclaimer, small print, asterisk, and etc.

  34. #149
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    This is the victim in this case:

    [ame="http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cdd_1194343910"]LiveLeak.com - Family Pay Tribute To Murdered Student.[/ame]

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  36. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by trillian View Post
    This certainly could all be true.

    We dont know how much she came up with since there is no recording but let's just say this part is true as well.


    It seems they were insinuating to her they had a suspicious text and solid proof she was there. They were threatening her with 30yrs in prison unless she came clean about what happened. We cannot know how much was "fed" to her without a recording.



    Perhaps an incompetent person takes longer to understand what police want from them? I dont really know. Comprehension would certainly be diminished.
    Look at Kevin Fox. He, a 27yr old father of two, caved a few hours after they told him they told him he lied and failed his voluntary Ld test (he didnt fail) and they had absolute proof that he did it (they didnt) but that if he admitted it was an accident, he could be let go on bond. Otherwise, he would have murder charges and go to prison for 30yrs (sound familiar?). Then he made up the details of how he accidently killed his 4yr old daughter Riley. How could that happen?
    Police often use the tactic of telling someone they have proof of more than they have ... that in itself does not result in false confessions.

    Not the old trick of "you will get 30 years in jail unless you confess" ... anyone with a mental capacity that exceeds that of a 7 year old should understand that the confession results in 30 years in jail, not the other way around.

    What do you mean by a "few hours"?

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