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  1. #1
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    so there is no DNA evidence that ties the WM3.....

    to the crime scene so they must be innocent, but they found Terry Hobbs DNA/ David Jacoby's DNA so they must be guilty.

    Give me a break.

    I have yet to hear TH & DJ confess to killing 3 innocent children. (They have had 18 years to do so).

    How come TH has never confessed to PH about killing her son? maybe because he didn't do it.

    The right 3 are in prison. they got a fair trial. they were not convicted for wearing black clothing, reading horror novels, heavy metal music like supporters would like for people to believe.

    People who are new to this case, please bypass Paradise Lost 1 & 2.

    They did not show everything in the trial. both are biased documentaries to make JMB (1st one) the culprit and the WM3 look innocent.

    PLEASE look at the evidence in this case and then make up your mind.

  2. #2
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    Since you've told people to ignore so much evidence, what is it you want them to consider?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    Since you've told people to ignore so much evidence, what is it you want them to consider?
    People can't go by Paradise Lost 1 & 2 they need to read the facts for themselves. Callahan's is a great place to start.

    I also heard a rumor that Jessie is still confessing to his counselors. I don't know how true that is or not. Somebody on a Topix board said that.

    I would like to know the evidence they did not show.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by iluvmua View Post
    to the crime scene so they must be innocent, but they found Terry Hobbs DNA/ David Jacoby's DNA so they must be guilty.

    Give me a break.

    I have yet to hear TH & DJ confess to killing 3 innocent children. (They have had 18 years to do so).

    How come TH has never confessed to PH about killing her son? maybe because he didn't do it.

    The right 3 are in prison. they got a fair trial. they were not convicted for wearing black clothing, reading horror novels, heavy metal music like supporters would like for people to believe.

    People who are new to this case, please bypass Paradise Lost 1 & 2.

    They did not show everything in the trial. both are biased documentaries to make JMB (1st one) the culprit and the WM3 look innocent.

    PLEASE look at the evidence in this case and then make up your mind.
    Yes, the DNA excludes the WM3 and points to TH as the killer. I personally do not believe DJ was involved. I believe his hair was brought to the scene on TH's clothes since they were playing guitars shortly before the boys disappeared. However, since this was not a sex crime, DNA alone cannot prove or disprove who is responsible for this horrendous crime.

    So TH has not confessed to anyone (including PH)? Do all killers eventually confess to their crimes? The fact that TH has not confessed does not prove that he did not commit these crimes. The fact that the WMPD were able to coerce a statement from a teen with a low intelligence does not prove that the WM3 are guilty, either. The number of times false confessions have led to unjust convictions is well documented and has been discussed previously.

    The WM3 were not convicted solely because they wore black clothing and listened to heavy metal music. Those things were what brought them to the attention of the WMPD, but even in West Memphis, more had to happen to get them convicted. What convicted the WM3 (after a vindictive juvenile officer who is now in jail on unrelated charges pointed the WMPD to Damien) was small-town mentality, a horrendous crime that needed to be solved immediately, a State-leaning judge and the "satanic panic" that was prevalent in the country at the time.

    The small-town mentality caused the town to be very susceptible to news stories at the time (both televised and in the print media) which convicted the WM3 before the trials. The police were under intense pressure to solve the crime; the juvenile officer gave them a prime suspect; the police found a poor kid who supposedly knew the suspect and who was also slightly slow witted and got him to "confess" to the crime and implicate two others; the town wanted the crime solved, so it was "solved." The WM3 were poor and therefore could not obtain adequate defense (especially with a State-leaning judge). IMO, the feeling at the time was that these three wouldn't be missed by society, so we'll railroad them.

    The documentaries exposed the ineptitude of the investigation and the defense. They exposed the probability that someone else committed these murders. True, at the time, the finger seemed to point to JMB, but he has since been cleared. TH had not even talked to the police until 2007, even though parents and step parents are usually the first to be interrogated in crimes such as this. What many people fail to realize is that all documentaries tend to be biased, usually toward whichever position the film makers support. In fact, when the original documentary was begun, it was going to be about how the WM3 were guilty of the crime. It was only as the filming began that the film makers realized what had happened.

    The trial was by no means fair. The judge excluded alibi witnesses and allowed testimony by a "doctor" with a mail-order degree. The jury foreman at the E/B trial introduced into deliberations Jessie's statement (which was excluded by the judge), and at least two jurors have stated that Jessie's statement was the primary reason for their vote for conviction. During the Misskelley trial, the judge made an off-hand comment as the jury was beginning deliberations that could possibly have tainted the results. These are just the things that have been made public.

    I encourage anyone researching this case to read all the documents on Callahan's. However, there is other information available that should also be read. When TH brought his (failed) defamation suit against Natalie Maines Pasdar and The Dixie Chicks, depositions were taken by many people involved in this case. Those depositions should be read, and they are not all on Callahan's. Unfortunately, much of the information discovered since the original trials by the defense is not available to the public currently. I understand totally why this information is not currently available. Hopefully, it will be made available after the hearing. So, read Callahan's definitely, but don't stop there. Get the whole picture - both sides.

    I don't understand why people who believe the WM3 are guilty are so adamantly opposed to a new trial. If they're guilty, why fear a new trial? I just think that, before a man is put to death, the State should be totally confident of his guilt. Let's see what the hearing shows. We have been promised additional evidence and additional test results. Maybe we will be able to get some definitive proof of innocence or guilt from these things. IMO, the wrong men are in prison and need to be freed.

  5. #5
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    Well I believe the WM3 are guilty, and I don't fear a new trial at all.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by justthinkin View Post
    Well I believe the WM3 are guilty, and I don't fear a new trial at all.
    Will any of the trials (if there are any) be any different than the ones in 1994?

    What would the Pros do differently that they did not do the first time around?

    from what I hear, TH has never been a suspect, not has he ever considered to be one.

    I think that this was nothing more than a 'thrill kill'.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Compassionate Reader View Post
    Yes, the DNA excludes the WM3 and points to TH as the killer. I personally do not believe DJ was involved. I believe his hair was brought to the scene on TH's clothes since they were playing guitars shortly before the boys disappeared. However, since this was not a sex crime, DNA alone cannot prove or disprove who is responsible for this horrendous crime.

    So TH has not confessed to anyone (including PH)? Do all killers eventually confess to their crimes? The fact that TH has not confessed does not prove that he did not commit these crimes. The fact that the WMPD were able to coerce a statement from a teen with a low intelligence does not prove that the WM3 are guilty, either. The number of times false confessions have led to unjust convictions is well documented and has been discussed previously.

    The WM3 were not convicted solely because they wore black clothing and listened to heavy metal music. Those things were what brought them to the attention of the WMPD, but even in West Memphis, more had to happen to get them convicted. What convicted the WM3 (after a vindictive juvenile officer who is now in jail on unrelated charges pointed the WMPD to Damien) was small-town mentality, a horrendous crime that needed to be solved immediately, a State-leaning judge and the "satanic panic" that was prevalent in the country at the time.

    The small-town mentality caused the town to be very susceptible to news stories at the time (both televised and in the print media) which convicted the WM3 before the trials. The police were under intense pressure to solve the crime; the juvenile officer gave them a prime suspect; the police found a poor kid who supposedly knew the suspect and who was also slightly slow witted and got him to "confess" to the crime and implicate two others; the town wanted the crime solved, so it was "solved." The WM3 were poor and therefore could not obtain adequate defense (especially with a State-leaning judge). IMO, the feeling at the time was that these three wouldn't be missed by society, so we'll railroad them.

    The documentaries exposed the ineptitude of the investigation and the defense. They exposed the probability that someone else committed these murders. True, at the time, the finger seemed to point to JMB, but he has since been cleared. TH had not even talked to the police until 2007, even though parents and step parents are usually the first to be interrogated in crimes such as this. What many people fail to realize is that all documentaries tend to be biased, usually toward whichever position the film makers support. In fact, when the original documentary was begun, it was going to be about how the WM3 were guilty of the crime. It was only as the filming began that the film makers realized what had happened.

    The trial was by no means fair. The judge excluded alibi witnesses and allowed testimony by a "doctor" with a mail-order degree. The jury foreman at the E/B trial introduced into deliberations Jessie's statement (which was excluded by the judge), and at least two jurors have stated that Jessie's statement was the primary reason for their vote for conviction. During the Misskelley trial, the judge made an off-hand comment as the jury was beginning deliberations that could possibly have tainted the results. These are just the things that have been made public.

    I encourage anyone researching this case to read all the documents on Callahan's. However, there is other information available that should also be read. When TH brought his (failed) defamation suit against Natalie Maines Pasdar and The Dixie Chicks, depositions were taken by many people involved in this case. Those depositions should be read, and they are not all on Callahan's. Unfortunately, much of the information discovered since the original trials by the defense is not available to the public currently. I understand totally why this information is not currently available. Hopefully, it will be made available after the hearing. So, read Callahan's definitely, but don't stop there. Get the whole picture - both sides.

    I don't understand why people who believe the WM3 are guilty are so adamantly opposed to a new trial. If they're guilty, why fear a new trial? I just think that, before a man is put to death, the State should be totally confident of his guilt. Let's see what the hearing shows. We have been promised additional evidence and additional test results. Maybe we will be able to get some definitive proof of innocence or guilt from these things. IMO, the wrong men are in prison and need to be freed.
    I believe that both sides have new information that has not been made public yet, and yes, I do agree with you, the state needs to be totally confident they have the right man before they put someone to death.

    it will be interesting to see what each side has.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by iluvmua View Post
    Will any of the trials (if there are any) be any different than the ones in 1994?

    What would the Pros do differently that they did not do the first time around?

    from what I hear, TH has never been a suspect, not has he ever considered to be one.

    I think that this was nothing more than a 'thrill kill'.
    I believe one thing that will be different is that the State will drop the ridiculous "occult killing" motive. There never was any proof of that except Griffis, the mail-order "doctor" who was supposedly an occult expert. Also, I look for no mention of the infamous "Lake knife" as the wounds have now been identified by experts as animal predation and the knife as a possible murder weapon cannot be proven. In fact, there is some talk of someone who states that the knife was placed in the lake before the murders. I hope for testimony from that person. Hopefully, the new judge will not exclude the alibi witnesses that were excluded by the original judge.

    One of the most important things that will be different in this trial is that the judge from '94 will not be there as he was elected to the State Senate. Although the new judge does have some proclivities toward State decisions, personally I don't think he is as State-leaning as the original judge was. IMO, there will be more witnesses to support the innocence of the WM3 and additional witnesses that will provide evidence implicating an alternate suspect.

    TH will have to be given more consideration as a suspect now IMO. At least some attempt to explain his DNA at the scene will have to be put forth. Secondary transfer just doesn't get it IMO because of the location of his DNA - in the ligature of MM and not his own step son. Also, additional information has come out about TH through the Pasdar case that gives him much more of a motive than the three. IMO the WMPD will have to explain why he wasn't questioned or suspected in '93. He seemed to always find a way to be where the police were not back then, but the police seemed reluctant to pursue him. Personally, I would like an explanation for this behavior.

    If these murders had been "thrill kills," then why was the scene left so clean? Usually a "thrill kill" leaves a very messy scene. Think about the murders depicted in Truman Capote's novel, In Cold Blood. There are other examples that I could cite as well. If these three teens were out to kill someone for the thrill of it, IMO there would be plenty of evidence. There was none.

    If there aren't new trials, it will be because the WMPD will choose not to reopen the case. I am confident that the evidentiary hearing will order new trials and vacate the original verdicts. I am not so sure that the WMPD will be willing to retry this case in the light of everything that has happened since 1993, especially the unanimous decision by the ASSC that ordered the evidentiary hearing and gave a verbal smack in the face to the original judge and the original investigation and trials.

    If the WMPD chooses not to reopen the case, the WM3 will be freed because the original verdicts will be vacated when the evidentiary hearing is ordered. Unfortunately, this will put them in limbo - freed but not exonerated. For that reason, I hope that there is a new trial - so that the WM3 can be exonerated and get on with their lives.

  9. #9
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    It would be interesting to see what if anything would be mentioned concerning TH DNA at a new trial of the WM3. That's kind of why I don't think it will get as far as a new trial for the WM3.

    Even though TH's DNA was found at the crime scene, he is a step-father of Steve Branch, and his DNA could have gotten there by transfer. I know what you will say already, CR, but in a new trial, it is just as apt that TH evidence would be excluded because it could throw suspicion on TH. The state's idea of a new trial would not be to include suspicion of TH, but to exclude or definitively include involvement by the WM3 and that can only be done fairly(in the state's eyes) by excluding the TH DNA.

    Naturally supporters of the WM3 would like to see the TH DNA brought up in a new trial of the WM3, but I think hello would freeze over before that ever becomes the case because it could, in some jurors eyes, be seen as reasonable doubt whether it is or isn't.

    The state of Arkansas is not going to allow that to happen IMHO. They are not going to deliberately throw out the convictions they've already attained, but that is what you would like them to do, and that is what they would be doing if they were to allow TH's DNA or even DJ's in as evidence.

    Now should the WM3 be acquitted by a new trial, then and only then, do I think the TH DNA might be called into question, and the possibility of a future trial of TH brought up. IMO, it'll never happen because one hair isn't enough evidence to support that TH was responsible, and most especially if that hair got there by innocent transfer.

    Sorry, but it looks to me that the WM3 are going to stay convicted unless they take this to the Supreme Court of the US. That is their only hope IMO.
    Last edited by justthinkin; 02-12-2011 at 07:03 PM.

  10. #10
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    I am not convinced the WM3 committed these crimes. Where is the DNA? Come on, if you're at a scene long enough to kill 3 children, then you must have sloughed off some DNA. Whether it was on the children or the surrounding kill site.

    I have yet to find a biological link to the WM3 and the murder of these innocent children. May the truth come out.

    I do agree, that the hair is a moot point. IMHO this is transfer hair and nothing more, nothing less.

    MOO

    Mel


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by justthinkin View Post
    It would be interesting to see what if anything would be mentioned concerning TH DNA at a new trial of the WM3. That's kind of why I don't think it will get as far as a new trial for the WM3.

    Even though TH's DNA was found at the crime scene, he is a step-father of Steve Branch, and his DNA could have gotten there by transfer. I know what you will say already, CR, but in a new trial, it is just as apt that TH evidence would be excluded because it could throw suspicion on TH. The idea of a new trial is not to include suspicion of TH, but to exclude or definitively include involvement by the WM3 and that can only be done fairly by excluding the TH DNA.

    Naturally supporters of the WM3 would like to see the TH DNA brought up in a new trial of the WM3, but I think hello would freeze over before that ever becomes the case because it could, in some jurors eyes, be seen as reasonable doubt whether it is or isn't.

    The state of Arkansas is not going to allow that to happen IMHO. They are not going to deliberately throw out the convictions they've already attained, but that is what you would like them to do, and that is what they would be doing if they were to allow that in as evidence.

    Now should the WM3 be acquitted by a new trial, then and only then, do I think the TH DNA might be called into question, and the possibility of a future trial of TH brought up. IMO, it'll never happen because one hair isn't enough evidence to support that TH was responsible, and most especially if that hair got there by innocent transfer.

    Sorry, but it looks to me that the WM3 are going to stay convicted unless they take this to the Supreme Court of the US. That is their only hope IMO.
    I'd need more than a hair to be convinced that TH is the perp.

    For people to say watch the Docs, the Docs, don't prove anything. they did not show everything presented in the trial.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgardner View Post
    I am not convinced the WM3 committed these crimes. Where is the DNA? Come on, if you're at a scene long enough to kill 3 children, then you must have sloughed off some DNA. Whether it was on the children or the surrounding kill site.

    I have yet to find a biological link to the WM3 and the murder of these innocent children. May the truth come out.

    I do agree, that the hair is a moot point. IMHO this is transfer hair and nothing more, nothing less.

    MOO

    Mel

    I believe there was no DNA because it had rained the day before and the children were found in a rain filled ditch.

  13. #13
    The one TH hair is not enough to convict TH, I agree. However, when seen with the additional DJ hair, it is much more convincing. How did the DJ hair get there? DJ says that he was not near the discovery site. Either he's lying or TH is lying because he also denies being at the discovery site prior to the discovery of the bodies. Direct transfer from DJ himself or secondary transfer from TH IMO are the only ways to account for the DJ hair. One (or both) had to be there, so one is lying. I vote that TH is the liar.

    I believe that more evidence against TH will be presented at the hearing, and I agree that the State will fight like all get out to exclude the TH hair (and the depositions from the Pasdar case), but this will not be an issue until a new trial. Those things will come out at the hearing, and when they do, no excluding them from trial will totally take away their impact on the case.

    Yes, TH was the step father of Stevie Branch at the time of the murders. However, as I've said before, the hair was not found in Stevie's ligature but in Michael's. I just don't see how that can be innocent transfer.

    Like mgardner said, if the WM3 were guilty of this crime, they would have left some sort of biological evidence, either at the discovery site or on the bodies. Whoever tied up those little boys had to touch the shoestrings. When they did, they would have left touch DNA at least. That type of evidence is not washed away by water or time. I hope that the shoestrings can be tested for touch DNA.

    I guess we are all anxiously awaiting the findings and revelations from the hearing.

  14. #14
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    "Scientific experts testified Wednesday at the Chandra Levy murder trial that there is no DNA or forensic evidence linking defendant Ingmar Guandique to the crime scene in Rock Creek Park where Levy's remains were found."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...110307302.html

    Note: defendant was convicted
    ----
    "TRENTON ó Preliminary DNA tests found no evidence of semen on a 7-year-old New Jersey girl who police said was gang-raped after her stepsister sold her for sex.

    The lack of DNA evidence will not cripple the state's case against two men and three teenagers who have been charged with rape."
    http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...und_in_ra.html

    Note: Doesn't appear verdict is in on this case yet.
    ----
    Adam Walsh - Case Closed
    No DNA Evidence, but Prime Suspect Ottis Toole is Named

    Read more at Suite101: Adam Walsh - Case Closed: No DNA Evidence, but Prime Suspect Ottis Toole is Named http://www.suite101.com/content/adam...#ixzz1DnKEcsUI


    DNA is not the be all, end all in all cases as these cases may represent. The defendant WAS convicted in the Chandra Levy Case without DNA evidence.

    While Toole was never tried in the Adam Walsh Case, still lack of DNA did not stop LE from naming their suspect. Something LE usually doesn't do. The Trenton case has yet to be decided as far as I can find out.

    While we all prefer to see DNA evidence, sometimes there just isn't any, but trials still take place.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by iluvmua View Post
    I'd need more than a hair to be convinced that TH is the perp.

    For people to say watch the Docs, the Docs, don't prove anything. they did not show everything presented in the trial.
    I don't believe anyone has said the documentaries contained ALL the important evidence. In fact, CR just left a lengthy post praising Callahan's and talking about info that isn't even available to the public.

    But the docs contain what they contain, and post people find that useful, I believe.

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