Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #7

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Salem

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Please continue here. Please be mindful of TOS and don't let emotion get the better part of the discussion. Be sure your posts attacks the information and not the poster or posters in general.


Thread 1

Thread 2

Thread 3

Thread 4 - On hold.

Thread 5

Thread 6


Appeal is to be decided in March 2011.

Thanks,

Salem
 
Pardon the intrusion -- it feels like I'm entering a private conversation. In the previous thread Otto wrote (post 287):

We can't have it both ways. Either Knox is a normal, educated, healthy, average person, or she is a feeble minded, helpless, person that cannot distinguish between helping and telling lies, and cannot adapt to new situations without difficulty.
Click to expand...

I wonder if these are necessarily the only two options. It seems to me at least one other possibility is a selfish, thoughtless, twenty year old who could be irresponsible and prefer hanging out and smoking some pot or drinking to working, and who maybe couldn't see out of her own bubble well enough to be attuned to others around her or understand how her actions appeared to others. Which sort of sounds like an awful lot of ordinary twenty year olds who are self-absorbed without being sociopathic.

I'm not defending AK or her actions (if these second- and third-hand reports are true), just trying to offer other possible interpretations.
 
angel10510 said:
Pardon the intrusion -- it feels like I'm entering a private conversation. In the previous thread Otto wrote (post 287):



I wonder if these are necessarily the only two options. It seems to me at least one other possibility is a selfish, thoughtless, twenty year old who could be irresponsible and prefer hanging out and smoking some pot or drinking to working, and who maybe couldn't see out of her own bubble well enough to be attuned to others around her or understand how her actions appeared to others. Which sort of sounds like an awful lot of ordinary twenty year olds who are self-absorbed without being sociopathic.

I'm not defending AK or her actions (if these second- and third-hand reports are true), just trying to offer other possible interpretations.
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If this conversation is private, you are most certainly included, angel!

I agree with you re AK. As SleuthyGal said on the last thread, most of AK's "inappropriate" behavior would just seem like run-of-the-mill immaturity if she hadn't been accused of murder.

The false statements are another matter, of course, but also not uncommon, given the pressure of the situation. AK's immaturity may have contributed to that as well.
 
Hi angel! Welcome to the discussion. Nothing private about it, and everyone is welcome.

I happen to concur with your thoughts. I've always viewed AK as a (somewhat typical) immature 20 yr old college gal, but also flaky, not a great communicator, seems to have trouble staying on one train of thought at a time (at least that's my impression through her writings and speech patterns). Add in smoking pot and some drinking, and she doesn't present as a pulled-together young woman. But lots of gals her age aren't either, so that's not very unusual. I probably wouldn't have been friends with her if I were that age and had met her since I tend more towards the serious and am not a partier.

That doesn't make her a sociopath or a murderer. Heck, she could be the biggest pot smoking, boozing, flirty, bed-hopping, STI-carrying, flaky, spoiled floozy around, and that also doesn't make her murderer.

Only committing murder would make her a murderer and there is no clear forensic or witness statement evidence that she committed a murder.

There is evidence that she had some interaction with the location of the crime (i.e. the apt) after bloodshed, but there is nothing that actually proves she was in the apt during the crime or participated in MK's murder. Even her rambling statements, in which she imagines herself to be in the apt, don't have her in MK's room. And there is no evidence showing she was ever in MK's room during the murder either.

That is why I see reasonable doubt in the case. Involved? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe isn't a good enough level for me to say "GUILTY!"
 
SleuthyGal said:
Hi angel! Welcome to the discussion. Nothing private about it, and everyone is welcome.

I happen to concur with your thoughts. I've always viewed AK as a (somewhat typical) immature 20 yr old college gal, but also flaky, not a great communicator, seems to have trouble staying on one train of thought at a time (at least that's my impression through her writings and speech patterns). Add in smoking pot and some drinking, and she doesn't present as a pulled-together young woman. But lots of gals her age aren't either, so that's not very unusual. I probably wouldn't have been friends with her if I were that age and had met her since I tend more towards the serious and am not a partier.

That doesn't make her a sociopath or a murderer. Heck, she could be the biggest pot smoking, boozing, flirty, bed-hopping, STI-carrying, flaky, spoiled floozy around, and that also doesn't make her murderer.

Only committing murder would make her a murderer and there is no clear forensic or witness statement evidence that she committed a murder.

There is evidence that she had some interaction with the location of the crime (i.e. the apt) after bloodshed, but there is nothing that actually proves she was in the apt during the crime or participated in MK's murder. Even her rambling statements, in which she imagines herself to be in the apt, don't have her in MK's room. And there is no evidence showing she was ever in MK's room during the murder either.

That is why I see reasonable doubt in the case. Involved? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe isn't a good enough level for me to say "GUILTY!"
Click to expand...

As I've said, I taught for 15 years at a well-known university and the only things that would have stood out about AK are (a) her obvious talent for languages, and (b) that she was charged with murder. Nothing reported about her drug use or sexual history are in any way remarkable.

Neither the scattered nature of her writing nor its morbid subject matter is in any way surprising, for reasons i've explained at length. (I swear that most of my work with college freshman was getting them to write one or two pages in a coherent fashion. Anything longer than that was a lost cause for most; it seems to have something to do with how writing is taught in younger grades, but I don't pretend to be an expert on that.)

I agree with SleuthyGal that we can't know everything that happened in the cottage that night, but there is no way the guilt of AK or RS has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. (And if that's not the burden of proof in Italy, too bad; it should be.)
 
Do not know where to put this........but lifetime channel just showed an advertisement for the 'Amanda Knox Story".............looking for the airtime.........
 
Passionflower,

The Lifetime Amanda Knox movie will be airing Monday, February 21 at 9:00 pm EST. At 11:00 pm, they are doing a one hour special loooking at the case. I believe interviews with Amanda's familty will be included. :)
 
http://abcnews.go.com/International/amanda-knoxs-parents-ordered-italian-judge-stand-trial/story?id=12919741

The parents of Amanda Knox were ordered by an Italian judge today to stand trial for libel for saying in a newspaper interview that their daughter had been mistreated by homicide police during a night-long interrogation.

Knox is appealing her murder conviction for the 2007 stabbing death of roommate Meredith Kercher. Part of her defense is that she was abused by police who grilled her for hours without an attorney present. She also claims the police cuffed her on the back of the head, denied her food and water, and yelled at her.

During that overnight interrogation, Knox told police that she had a "vision" that she was in the cottage when Kercher was killed and heard her scream, placing herself at the scene of the crime. Although Knox tried to retract the statement the next morning, it was used as evidence against her in her trial which resulted in a 26 year prison term. Knox, who is from Seattle, has since been charged with slander for saying the police was abusive. Her parents, who repeated their daughter's explanation in an interview with Sunday Times of London in 2009, have now also been ordered tried for libel. The trial date for the parents, Edda Mellas and Curt Knox, was set for July 4 in Perugia, Italy. MORE AT LINK ABOVE
 
"Lawyers for U.S. student Amanda Knox and her ex-boyfriend, who were found guilty of killing Knox's British roommate in Italy, have formally demanded that U.S. television channel Lifetime scrap a planned film about their trial.

Attorneys Carlo Dalla Vedova and Luca Maori said Saturday they had sent letters to Lifetime warning they would go to U.S. court to try to sequester the film if it isn't canceled and a trailer removed from Lifetime's website.

"Amanda Knox: Murder on Trial in Italy," which features "Heroes" star Hayden Panettiere in the title role, is due to air Feb. 21.

There was no answer at Lifetime's New York offices Saturday."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/05/world/main7321624.shtml
 
Daisyjane said:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/amanda-knoxs-parents-ordered-italian-judge-stand-trial/story?id=12919741

The parents of Amanda Knox were ordered by an Italian judge today to stand trial for libel for saying in a newspaper interview that their daughter had been mistreated by homicide police during a night-long interrogation.

Knox is appealing her murder conviction for the 2007 stabbing death of roommate Meredith Kercher. Part of her defense is that she was abused by police who grilled her for hours without an attorney present. She also claims the police cuffed her on the back of the head, denied her food and water, and yelled at her.

During that overnight interrogation, Knox told police that she had a "vision" that she was in the cottage when Kercher was killed and heard her scream, placing herself at the scene of the crime. Although Knox tried to retract the statement the next morning, it was used as evidence against her in her trial which resulted in a 26 year prison term. Knox, who is from Seattle, has since been charged with slander for saying the police was abusive. Her parents, who repeated their daughter's explanation in an interview with Sunday Times of London in 2009, have now also been ordered tried for libel. The trial date for the parents, Edda Mellas and Curt Knox, was set for July 4 in Perugia, Italy. MORE AT LINK ABOVE
Click to expand...

This seems a bit excessive to me. I mean, they weren't there, so it's basically hearsay, right? They are obviously going to believe what their daughter says to be true.
 
missyjane77 said:
This seems a bit excessive to me. I mean, they weren't there, so it's basically hearsay, right? They are obviously going to believe what their daughter says to be true.
Click to expand...

I think that is the point ... they weren't there, so they don't know what happened. They are more than welcome to believe their daughter, but when they are aware of the fact that police say it isn't true, and then repeat their daughter's claims in the EU news, that becomes a problem. Going from memory, but isn't that the problem ... that they announced the lies as truth on British television?

"Knox's parents also face slander charges for repeating their daughter's claims to a British newspaper, but her mother isn't worried.

"The lawyers have told me that the charges, especially mine, to not worry [about]. She has the right under Italian law to defend herself and tell her side of the story, which is what she's done. I don't think they are particularly worried about that. [It's] just one more thing we have to go through," Edda Mellas, Knox's mother, told CBS' "The Early Show" Monday. "
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/27/earlyshow/main6904181.shtml

The parents of Amanda Knox were ordered by an Italian judge today to stand trial for libel for saying in a newspaper interview that their daughter had been mistreated by homicide police during a night-long interrogation. ... Part of her defense is that she was abused by police who grilled her for hours without an attorney present. She also claims the police cuffed her on the back of the head, denied her food and water, and yelled at her. ...Her parents, who repeated their daughter's explanation in an interview with Sunday Times of London in 2009, have now also been ordered tried for libel. ... The preliminary hearing judge charged that "in particular, they said, contrary to the truth, that Amanda had not been assisted by an interpreter, that she hadn't been given food or water, that she had been abused both physically and verbally," and finally "that she had been slapped on the back of the head and threatened," according to the Italian news agency ANSA.

Libel is a criminal charge in Italy that carries a sentence of six months to three years, as well as a fine. If convicted the parents would be unlikely to serve any time since they have no previous judicial record."
http://abcnews.go.com/International...d-italian-judge-stand-trial/story?id=12919741
 
So the parents are guilty of what? Believing their daughter? This is ridiculous and my opinion of ILE sinks lower with every passing day.

I don't know what the Umbrian authorities think they accomplishing, but they've taken me from believing AK and RS are probably guilty to believing they are almost certain innocent.

ILE is way too quick to arrest and charge people. A little common sense (not to mention human compassion) ought to applied.
 
Nova said:
So the parents are guilty of what? Believing their daughter? This is ridiculous and my opinion of ILE sinks lower with every passing day.

I don't know what the Umbrian authorities think they accomplishing, but they've taken me from believing AK and RS are probably guilty to believing they are almost certain innocent.
Click to expand...

They are charged with libel, not yet guilty of anything.
 
otto said:
I think that is the point ... they weren't there, so they don't know what happened. They are more than welcome to believe their daughter, but when they are aware of the fact that police say it isn't true, and then repeat their daughter's claims in the EU news, that becomes a problem. Going from memory, but isn't that the problem ... that they announced the lies as truth on British television?
Click to expand...

So the police couldn't be lying?
 
otto said:
They are charged with libel, not yet guilty of anything.
Click to expand...

It's true the parents have not been proven guilty. But ILE has charged them, which is a claim of guilt. It was to that claim I referred.
 
missyjane77 said:
So the police couldn't be lying?
Click to expand...

Apparently not in Italy. This is what makes these various slander and libel charges so ridiculous. The whole world knows about the "thin blue line" and understands that police will tend to back up one another--except in Umbria.

If Umbrian police are so sensitive to charges of abuse, why weren't the interrogations taped?
 
I feel very bad for Amanda's parents. I also feel very bad for Meredith's parents who have, after all lost a child. I also feel for Raffaele's father. They all are suffering greatly through this ordeal.

It is my understanding that Amanda's parents have been relying on donated funds to finance Amanda’s defense and the travel expenses they have incurred. I would expect that it would be difficult raise legal defense funds without the assumption that the defendant is "factually" innocent. The American media, particularly in the Seattle area, have painted a picture of the situation in Perugia that is very sympathetic to Amanda. Evidentially they are concerned that Lifetime's portrayal of the case will not be so sympathetic. It is my understanding that Lifetime is not broadcast in Italy. Therefore I don't see any legal; issues.

It is my understanding that Amanda's parents have established a "high profile" in Italy. They have freely given interviews with the media and have been very outspoken in their defense of Amanda and their belief that the prosecution and the police have acted illegally and unethically in their dealings with their daughter’s case. This is understandable but there are libel laws in Italy that do not exist in the US. Obviously Italian law applies. It is not clear if they were unaware of the risks they were taking or if it was all part of a campaign to generate sympathetic publicity in the US. My guess is that they will not be doing any "hard time", and their supporters in the US will be covering their legal expenses.
 
missyjane77 said:
So the police couldn't be lying?
Click to expand...

The police could be lying, but there is no evidence to support that. The police could be living on the moon, but there is no evidence to support that.

Knox could be lying, and there is evidence to support that. We know that Knox was lying at the very least regarding the claim that she did not have an interpreter. We know she had an interpreter as she admitted as much during trial testimony. Since it has been proven that parts of her claims were false, it is more likely that more of her claims are false.

This is from Amanda's Trial Testimony: "While I was there, there was an interpreter who explained to me an experience of hers, where she had gone through a traumatic experience that she could not remember at all, and she suggested that I was traumatized, and that I couldn't remember the truth."

Dated: June 12, 2009
 
otto said:
The police could be lying, but there is no evidence to support that. The police could be living on the moon, but there is no evidence to support that.

Knox could be lying, and there is evidence to support that. We know that Knox was lying at the very least regarding the claim that she did not have an interpreter. We know she had an interpreter as she admitted as much during trial testimony (note: I provided that link in the last thread and will not take time to research it again). Since it has been proven that parts of her claims were false, it is more likely that more of her claims are false.
Click to expand...

What evidence proves she was lying about being abused?
 
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