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Thread: The Wine Cellar

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    The Wine Cellar

    In 1997, PR says the always latched the cellar door, but a year later Ramnesia sets in and says she “would not have specifically necessarily locked it.”
    Specifically, necessarily??????

    Ah yes, but the ever so courteous intruder/pedophile/kidnapper/murderer took the time out of his busy schedule to latch it?
    (Also, the small pivoting peg is not readily obvious, nor would it by likely that someone would expect something that archaic as a means of securing a door.)




    TT: Okay. Um, that, that cellar door, that peg on that, does that have to be down to deep that door closed?
    PR: Uh, well, no it will close. It, you know, it kind of sort of sticks on the carpet a little bit.
    TT: Um hum.
    PR: I mean, it will close, but that kind of I always kind of flipped that down just so the kids wouldn’t get in there.
    TT: Okay. But it doesn’t the door won’t open up because of the carpet without that lock down. If you leave the lock in the up position the door doesn’t just swing (inaudible).
    PR: No.
    TT: Okay. Were you ever, you were not ever in the basement that morning before the police got there?
    PR: No, I was not.
    Patsy Ramsey, 1997 Interview

    PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. This is back, this is what we referred to as the (inaudible) cover, these are (inaudible) painting here. When were these pictures taken, before we found JonBenet?
    TRIP DEMUTH: Yes.
    PATSY RAMSEY: See that door is locked there, because there is a little tab thing on there.
    TOM HANEY: Is that the way it is normally secured with that, is it a block of wood?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
    TOM HANEY: And how firmly or loosely is that attached?
    PATSY RAMSEY: You mean the wood?
    TOM HANEY: Yes, the wood, the block.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, it bends, you know. I mean, you have to turn it.
    TOM HANEY: You have to actually apply some force?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    TOM HANEY: Would it be capable of falling down on its own?
    PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't know, and I wasn't always -- you know, I was hiding some Christmas presents and stuff back in there for Christmas.
    TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall –
    PATSY RAMSEY: What I was going to say, I mean, after bringing the stuff up out of there after Christmas, I would not have specifically necessarily locked it because it kind of drags on the carpet.
    TOM HANEY: All right.
    PATSY RAMSEY: So I can't say that I personally left it neat and tidy shut and closed after I had gotten all of the toys out of there.
    TOM HANEY: You said it kind of drags on the bottom of the carpet. The carpet is too high or the door is too low. How tough is it to open, I mean is it –
    PATSY RAMSEY: You can do it. I can do it, but you had some resistance.
    TOM HANEY: Okay. Is there a spot where you couldn't open past that?
    PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    TOM HANEY: So if we refer to your 90 degrees to pull over, it would do that with just some effort?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
    Patsy Ramsey, 1998 Interview

    JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I remember grabbing the handle because the door was latched because I expected it not to be latched. I reached out, flipped the latch and opened the door and immediately looked down.
    LOU SMIT: And you say immediately?
    JOHN RAMSEY: There was a white blanket. And I just knew that I had found her.
    LOU SMIT: How were you standing in the doorway when you observed that?
    JOHN RAMSEY: I was probably right there. The door pulled open. The handle was on the left side of the door and it opened this way, as I recall.
    LOU SMIT: So now, I just want to get that right because when you opened the door, you could look inside the room. Is the light on or off at the time you open the door?
    JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was off. I don't remember it being on. It was off.
    LOU SMIT: Would you be able to see into that room if the light was off?
    JOHN RAMSEY: I saw clearly, instantly. Yeah.

    MIKE KANE: Okay. Now when you went around to the wine cellar door, you said you pulled at it and, I think you said that you were surprised that it was latched?
    JOHN RAMSEY: I just said I remember pulling on it almost popping out of hand because it's always been open. And I don't think the latch was latched.
    MIKE KANE: I think you said, (I didn't expect it to be latched.̃ Was it normally not?
    JOHN RAMSEY: I'd say, I mean, the door was kind of stuck anyway, so it wasn't common to latch it.
    MIKE KANE: Did that latch, and I've seen pictures of it, it was on like a pivot?
    JOHN RAMSEY: It was on a block of wood.
    MIKE KANE: A block of wood, but it was pivoted?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    MIKE KANE: Was it enough that it would fall down on its own or did you have to physically turn it?
    JOHN RAMSEY: I think you had to physically turn it.
    John Ramsey, 1998 Interview

    The sergeant found no evidence of forced entry during a walk through the house, then went outside. A light dusting of snow and frost lay atop an earlier crusty snow in spotty patches on the grass. He saw no fresh shoe impressions, found no open doors or windows, nothing to indicate a break-in, but walking on the driveway and sidewalks left no visible prints. It was frigid, about nine degrees, and Reichenbach returned inside.
    He went down into the sprawling basement and walked through it. At the far end was a white door secured at the top by a block of wood that pivoted on a screw. Reichenbach tried to open the door, stopped when he felt resistance, then returned upstairs. Reichenbach, Officer French, and one of the friends Patsy had called, Fleet White, would all check that white door in the basement during the morning, and White would even open it. They found nothing.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 19-20

    Earlier, Rick French, the first police officer to respond to the mother’s 911 call, had immediately searched the house for the child and for any sign of forced entry, but he found nothing. Then he read the ransom note
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 7

    When Rick French, the first officer on the scene after Patsy’s report of a kidnapping, later saw the spot where the body had been found, he remembered his search of the house in the early morning. In the first minutes, French, seeing from where he stood that the door was latched shut, had thought there was no need to open it. Now he was baffled by his own decision. How hard would it have been to open the door? Had JonBenét still been alive when he stood just a few feet away and decided not to open the door? The thought devastated him.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 21

    White told the detectives that he had been there only a few minutes when he started to search the house. Alone, he went down to the basement, found some of the lights on, and started calling out JonBenét’s name. It was so cluttered down there—with boxes stacked everywhere and shelves overflowing with odds and ends—that he could hardly see any open spaces where she might be. He started in Burke’s train and hobby room, where he saw a suitcase sitting under a broken window. On the floor under the window, he found small pieces of glass. He placed some of them on the windowsill. Then he moved the suitcase a few feet to get a closer look at the window. White said he was sure the window was closed but unlatched. After he left the train room, he turned right, into the boiler room. At the back of the room, he said, he saw a door to what the Ramseys called the wine cellar. He turned the closed wooden latch and opened the door. The room was pitch-black, he said. He didn’t enter, and he saw nothing. When he couldn’t find a light switch, he closed the door and went back upstairs. He did not remember whether or not he relatched the door. Later, when White saw John Fernie, he told him that a window downstairs had been punched open. The police wondered why White had not seen JonBenét’s body and later Ramsey had, since they both stood at the same spot after opening the door to the wine cellar.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 44

    He then described going to the little cellar room on the subsequent trip downstairs with Fleet White, unlatching and opening the white door. He snapped his fingers and said, “It was instant, I mean, as soon as I opened the door I saw the white blanket. . . and I knew what was up.” She was on her back on the floor with the white blanket folded around her, her arms were tied, and there was a piece of black tape over her lips, he said, and her head was cocked to one side.
    The door opens outward, so he would have had to step back or aside before moving through. He did not say he saw the blanket after turning on the light but “instantly.” Fleet White had stood in that same doorway that morning and could see nothing in the windowless darkness. I had always considered that Ramsey might have known something before he entered, and with this new admission of going to the basement earlier, I was sure of it. By the time he went back downstairs with Fleet White, I thought he knew exactly where the body was.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 192-193

    We conducted tedious re-creations in the small room where the body was found, duplicating lighting conditions with the help of a photographic expert with sensitive meters and placing a white cotton blanket where JonBenét had lain.
    John Ramsey had said he spotted the blanket instantly when he opened the door. It was as dark as a coal mine at midnight in there, and to open the door, he would have had to step back to a point where a blind corner would have blocked his view. I stood where Ramsey had been and saw only a wall of impenetrable blackness.
    Lou Smit: “I can see in there.”
    Even with the light on, Detective Gosage said, “I had to step completely into the cellar and look around the corner to my left to see the blanket on the floor.”
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 220

    Ramsey stuck to his original story of seeing the girl’s body “clearly and instantly” when he opened the cellar door and for the first time said he did not turn on the light. Our tests and the testimony of Fleet White had convinced us that it was impossible to see anything in the darkness, particularly when the view was blocked by a jutting interior corner.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 361

    (It does appear to be extremely dark in the room, especially when the door is partially open and someone is standing at the entrance as depicted in the fourth picture below.
    The last picture shows that you do have to step inside and look down and to left to have any chance of seeing the body.)














    CASKU further said that placing JonBenét in the basement was consistent with a parent not wanting to put the body outside in the winter elements. The familiarity with and relocking of the peg on the white cellar door were noted. The ligatures, they said, indicated staging rather than control, and the garrote was used from behind so the killer could avoid eye contact, typical of someone who cares for the victim.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 243

    It was time to let Sergeant Wickman confront the Intruder Theory.

    “The prominent red flag in the big picture is the utter illogic of such an intruder’s actions and behaviors,” Wickman said. “For one to believe an intruder committed this crime, one would also have to believe all of these things.” Enumerating conflicting points, Wickman asked, “Would an intruder”:

    Have taken the time to close JonBenét’s bedroom door, which Patsy said had been found closed?

    Have taken the time to relatch the obscure cellar door peg that police and Fleet White found in the locked position?

    Have placed JonBenét beneath a blanket and taken the care to place her favorite pink nightgown with her?
    ...

    Have wiped and/or re-dressed JonBenét after the assault and murder?

    Have fed her pineapple, then kept her alive in the house for a couple of hours while she digested it? (That same fresh-cut pineapple that was consistent, right down to the rind, with a bowl on the breakfast table that had the print of Patsy Ramsey’s right middle finger on it.)
    ...

    Have been able to navigate silently through a dark, confusing, and occupied house without a sound in the quiet of Christmas night?
    ...

    Be a stranger who could write a note with characteristics so similar to those of Patsy Ramsey’s writing that numerous experts would be unable to eliminate her as the author?
    ...


    Have been so unprepared for this most high-risk of crimes that the individuals representing a “small foreign faction” failed to bring the necessary equipment to facilitate the crime?

    Have been able to murder the child in such a violent fashion but so quietly that her parents and brother slept through the event, despite a scream loud enough to be heard by a neighbor across the street?
    ...

    And, Wickman pointed out, given the medical opinions of prior vaginal trauma, the night of the murder must not have been the intruder’s first visit, unless the vaginal abuse and the murder were done by different people.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 346-347
    Last edited by cynic; 02-22-2011 at 06:05 PM.
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)

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  3. #2
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    It's crazy, the number of lies, that the R's told and that were left unchallenged. It may have been a much different case/much different outcome, if they had not been treated as 'victims' from day 1, but, instead have been questioned, separately, so as to be cleared or prosecuted from the beginning!

    Thar lies, along with their behaviors have been totally over the top and nothing like true parent victims!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnieRN View Post
    It's crazy, the number of lies, that the R's told and that were left unchallenged. It may have been a much different case/much different outcome, if they had not been treated as 'victims' from day 1, but, instead have been questioned, separately, so as to be cleared or prosecuted from the beginning!

    Thar lies, along with their behaviors have been totally over the top and nothing like true parent victims!
    It is amazing. The closest parallel that I can think of would be the Skakel/Moxley case where money and power nearly foiled justice.
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)

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  7. #4
    The thing about this kind of latch is that you can't shut the door without swinging it up and when it is up and the door is closed, it swings back. Works well, I have a few of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    The thing about this kind of latch is that you can't shut the door without swinging it up and when it is up and the door is closed, it swings back. Works well, I have a few of them.
    Are you suggesting that this latch automatically drops down into the locked position?
    That is definitely not the case.
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)

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  11. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    Are you suggesting that this latch automatically drops down into the locked position?
    That is definitely not the case.
    Yes, absolutely. If you just swing it to the 3 or 9 o'clock position to open the door, it will fall back to 6 o'clock and you have to move it again to close the door. If you push it up between the 11 and 2 o'clock position, it will stay put. That's how they work, so you can leave it unlatched if you wish or not. So it depends on where you push the block whether it stays upright or falls down.

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  13. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    The thing about this kind of latch is that you can't shut the door without swinging it up and when it is up and the door is closed, it swings back. Works well, I have a few of them.
    That depends on how tightly the screw or nail is fastened into the wood latch. I have a rustic wooden cabinet that has two doors, each with exactly that kind of latch. One one, it DOES swing down when the door is opened, and I cannot close the door unless I manually hold the wood latch in a horizontal position with one hand while closing the door with the other. However, on the other, the wood latch is held more tightly, there is less "play" and the latch will remain in the horizontal position when the door is opened.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    That depends on how tightly the screw or nail is fastened into the wood latch. I have a rustic wooden cabinet that has two doors, each with exactly that kind of latch. One one, it DOES swing down when the door is opened, and I cannot close the door unless I manually hold the wood latch in a horizontal position with one hand while closing the door with the other. However, on the other, the wood latch is held more tightly, there is less "play" and the latch will remain in the horizontal position when the door is opened.


    From what I read in Cynics post, the wood was tight and required some force to move. So I agree with you DeeDee, not all of them swing back down on their own, which apparently was the case with the WC lock.
    There are things that we don't want to happen but have to accept, things we don't want to know but have to learn, and people we can't live without but have to let go.

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    it's obvious from what PR says (and I believe her ) that the room was normally secured/latched

    and IMO this was a slip:

    JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I remember grabbing the handle because the door was latched because I expected it not to be latched.


    he left it unlatched when he went down earlier so that "finding JB" will be easier if he goes there again in someone else's company.....different effect....woah,grabbing the door,there she is...you see her "instantly"....having to unlatch the door slows everything down and in that situation you don't want that,you want it to be over as soon as possible

    OR maybe he thought no one will notice the latch and JB will never be found,three people went down there and didn't find her,maybe he wanted to make things easier for whoever searches the basement again

    STILL,nothing explains how come FW didn't see anything and JR saw her instantly.
    this is beyond my understanding,always was,always will be.IT STINKS.

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    Cynic, you never cease to amaze me! In case I haven't told you lately, I truly appreciate you.

    (Snipped from Cynic)

    TT: Okay. Um, that, that cellar door, that peg on that, does that have to be down to deep that door closed?
    PR: Uh, well, no it will close. It, you know, it kind of sort of sticks on the carpet a little bit.
    TT: Um hum.
    PR: I mean, it will close, but that kind of I always kind of flipped that down just so the kids wouldn’t get in there.
    TT: Okay. But it doesn’t the door won’t open up because of the carpet without that lock down. If you leave the lock in the up position the door doesn’t just swing (inaudible).
    PR: No.
    TT: Okay. Were you ever, you were not ever in the basement that morning before the police got there?
    PR: No, I was not.

    Patsy Ramsey, 1997 Interview

    PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. This is back, this is what we referred to as the (inaudible) cover, these are (inaudible) painting here. When were these pictures taken, before we found JonBenet?
    TRIP DEMUTH: Yes.
    PATSY RAMSEY: See that door is locked there, because there is a little tab thing on there.

    TOM HANEY: Is that the way it is normally secured with that, is it a block of wood?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
    TOM HANEY: And how firmly or loosely is that attached?
    PATSY RAMSEY: You mean the wood?
    TOM HANEY: Yes, the wood, the block.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, it bends, you know. I mean, you have to turn it.
    TOM HANEY: You have to actually apply some force?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    TOM HANEY: Would it be capable of falling down on its own?
    PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't know, and I wasn't always -- you know, I was hiding some Christmas presents and stuff back in there for Christmas.
    TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall –
    PATSY RAMSEY: What I was going to say, I mean, after bringing the stuff up out of there after Christmas, I would not have specifically necessarily locked it because it kind of drags on the carpet.
    TOM HANEY: All right.
    PATSY RAMSEY: So I can't say that I personally left it neat and tidy shut and closed after I had gotten all of the toys out of there.

    TOM HANEY: You said it kind of drags on the bottom of the carpet. The carpet is too high or the door is too low. How tough is it to open, I mean is it –
    PATSY RAMSEY: You can do it. I can do it, but you had some resistance.
    TOM HANEY: Okay. Is there a spot where you couldn't open past that?
    PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    TOM HANEY: So if we refer to your 90 degrees to pull over, it would do that with just some effort?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
    Patsy Ramsey, 1998 Interview


    Okay, this piece of interview has bothered me for sometime now. My first thought is, if she hadnt been down in the basement at all that morning, than how did she know the door was locked? She clearly states that she cant remember if she locked it or not. How did she know that LE hadnt relocked it for photo purposes? Why would she make it a point, to bring attention to that? Why give an explination for a question not even asked?

    Patsy recognises the locked door in the photo and points it out. It was as if she was saying oh see, the door was still locked, see that piece of wood its just where we left it. Who is we?

    even more bothersome, is the fact that Jonbenet was still in there and it didnt bother her to know that. No crying like when she saw the Tiara or the red turtleneck.
    There are things that we don't want to happen but have to accept, things we don't want to know but have to learn, and people we can't live without but have to let go.

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  21. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    it's obvious from what PR says (and I believe her ) that the room was normally secured/latched

    and IMO this was a slip:

    JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I remember grabbing the handle because the door was latched because I expected it not to be latched.


    he left it unlatched when he went down earlier so that "finding JB" will be easier if he goes there again in someone else's company.....different effect....woah,grabbing the door,there she is...you see her "instantly"....having to unlatch the door slows everything down and in that situation you don't want that,you want it to be over as soon as possible

    OR maybe he thought no one will notice the latch and JB will never be found,three people went down there and didn't find her,maybe he wanted to make things easier for whoever searches the basement again

    STILL,nothing explains how come FW didn't see anything and JR saw her instantly.
    this is beyond my understanding,always was,always will be.IT STINKS.
    I agree, it stinks to high heaven. This SFF was brilliant & has remained undetected for more than a decade and a half. As another poster mentioned... they were nice enough to close JBR's bedroom door, smart enough to safety latch the cellar door, smart enough to write a long-winded ransom note to implicate PR as a potential author, crept through that maze of a house undetected, yet dumb enough to forget pen & paper (so they just used PR's pad) and nicely placed the cap back on the pen and put it back where it was found, also dumb enough to try stand on an old fashioned suitcase and expect it to support their weight to escape a basement window without disturbing a cobweb or leaving footprints. Dumb enough to mispell simple words but smart enough to spell "Attache" correctly including the accent/emphasis mark.

    When I consider all the terrorist attrocities of the last 30 - 40 years in Northern Ireland - one thing has remained constant... the group responsible for the crime always claimed responsibility for their crimes. That is how they gained notoriety & money from sympathizers all over the world.

    But not the SFF they have kept quiet all these years and didn't even attempt to collect the whopping $110,000 ransom.

    I did read, somewhere, that shortly after PR said: "we didn't mean for this to happen, can't you just make this all go away?" I can't remember who she said it to, but I think it was Pam Paugh. If this is actually true, then it speaks volumes to me.

    Sometimes I get nauseated wondering why the hammer hasn't already fallen on the guilty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Credible View Post
    I agree, it stinks to high heaven. This SFF was brilliant & has remained undetected for more than a decade and a half. As another poster mentioned... they were nice enough to close JBR's bedroom door, smart enough to safety latch the cellar door, smart enough to write a long-winded ransom note to implicate PR as a potential author, crept through that maze of a house undetected, yet dumb enough to forget pen & paper (so they just used PR's pad) and nicely placed the cap back on the pen and put it back where it was found, also dumb enough to try stand on an old fashioned suitcase and expect it to support their weight to escape a basement window without disturbing a cobweb or leaving footprints. Dumb enough to mispell simple words but smart enough to spell "Attache" correctly including the accent/emphasis mark.


    I did read, somewhere, that shortly after PR said: "we didn't mean for this to happen, can't you just make this all go away?" I can't remember who she said it to, but I think it was Pam Paugh. If this is actually true, then it speaks volumes to me.


    .
    The comment about "can't you fix this for me" was, I believe, something Patsy said to her friend/photographer Judith (Phillips?). I am not sure who the other comment was made by or to, but one of the parents said it to LE, I think.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    The comment about "can't you fix this for me" was, I believe, something Patsy said to her friend/photographer Judith (Phillips?). I am not sure who the other comment was made by or to, but one of the parents said it to LE, I think.
    At the Fernies’, Pam and Kristine found that Patsy was overdosing on Valium. She’d been taking the powerful tranquilizer every few hours and had probably lost track of the amount. Pam, a former registered nurse, touched Patsy’s skin and realized she was dehydrated. She brought Patsy some water and made her drink it.

    Later that afternoon, Kristine and Pam sat on either side of Patsy, holding her hands. “You know,” Patsy said quietly to Pam, as if she were telling someone for the first time, “they’ve killed my baby.” Pam noticed that Patsy used the word they.

    “You need to brush your hair,” Pam told her. “You need to lie down a little bit.” But Patsy stood up to greet each new person who arrived, and as she did, tears streamed down her face. These friends, Pam observed, were entirely different from the people she and Patsy knew in common—their pageant friends. The people visiting her here were strangers to Pam. Hours later, Patsy finally took Pam’s advice and lay down in the Fernies’ bedroom.

    Kristine went to the bathroom to get a cool washcloth for Patsy’s forehead. While she was gone, Patsy reached up and touched Pam’s face. “Couldn’t you fix this for me?” she asked. Pam thought she was delirious. It was as if Patsy were asking her to fix a ripped seam. “Patsy said something like, ‘We didn’t mean for that to happen,’” Pam would say later.

    After Patsy napped for almost an hour, Pam took her into the shower and washed her hair. Patsy was unable even to dry herself, and Pam wrapped a towel around her. Later, Pam couldn’t say why, but she remembered feeling as if Patsy knew who killed JonBenét but was afraid to say.

    Kristine, a former pageant winner, had been JonBenét’s role model. Patsy in turn had become one for Kristine and had been planning to groom the girl for the Miss America pageant. That afternoon Patsy asked Kristine, “Why couldn’t she have grown up? All Jonnie B ever wanted was to win a crown like yours.”
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)

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  27. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    Yes, absolutely. If you just swing it to the 3 or 9 o'clock position to open the door, it will fall back to 6 o'clock and you have to move it again to close the door. If you push it up between the 11 and 2 o'clock position, it will stay put. That's how they work, so you can leave it unlatched if you wish or not. So it depends on where you push the block whether it stays upright or falls down.
    TOM HANEY: And how firmly or loosely is that attached?
    PATSY RAMSEY: You mean the wood?
    TOM HANEY: Yes, the wood, the block.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, it bends, you know. I mean, you have to turn it.
    TOM HANEY: You have to actually apply some force?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
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  29. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    TOM HANEY: And how firmly or loosely is that attached?
    PATSY RAMSEY: You mean the wood?
    TOM HANEY: Yes, the wood, the block.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, it bends, you know. I mean, you have to turn it.
    TOM HANEY: You have to actually apply some force?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    I think it's altogether too difficult a task for most BPD and for some RDI to contemplate as well. It MUST have been them, no one else can understand it or get it to work LOL.

  30. #16
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    Murri, weren't you suggesting that the lock would have fallen into the six o'clock position all by itself? It's not RDI or BPD who has a problem understanding the latch. Also, it would have been negligent for the R's to not maintain this latch. Patsy could have been trapped in the room if the latch fell that easily. According to most IDI, a scream from that room may not have been heard on the floors above. She (or one of the kids) could have been trapped for hours.
    "This Time We Get it Right!"

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  32. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    The thing about this kind of latch is that you can't shut the door without swinging it up and when it is up and the door is closed, it swings back. Works well, I have a few of them.
    Are you suggesting that PR is lying in this interview? What would be her reason?

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  34. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistolina View Post
    Are you suggesting that PR is lying in this interview? What would be her reason?
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

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  36. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by joeskidbeck View Post
    Murri, weren't you suggesting that the lock would have fallen into the six o'clock position all by itself? It's not RDI or BPD who has a problem understanding the latch. Also, it would have been negligent for the R's to not maintain this latch. Patsy could have been trapped in the room if the latch fell that easily. According to most IDI, a scream from that room may not have been heard on the floors above. She (or one of the kids) could have been trapped for hours.
    Funny Beck, you obviously have no idea do you? If the latch was in the six oclock position you could not shut the door. You cannot latch the door from inside. So unless someone else shuts the door, moving the latch first, you cannot be locked inside. Nice try though.

  37. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    The thing about this kind of latch is that you can't shut the door without swinging it up and when it is up and the door is closed, it swings back. Works well, I have a few of them.
    Murri, you are suggesting here that the latch would automatically come down and "lock" the door when it closed, right? If so, how in the world would one get out of that room, then?
    "This Time We Get it Right!"

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  39. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by joeskidbeck View Post
    Murri, you are suggesting here that the latch would automatically come down and "lock" the door when it closed, right? If so, how in the world would one get out of that room, then?
    Asked and answered. No, you cannot lock yourself in.

  40. #22
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    Oh, I see now. You are saying Patsy lied.
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    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

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  42. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeskidbeck View Post
    Oh, I see now. You are saying Patsy lied.


    Is it too soon to celebrate???
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  44. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by joeskidbeck View Post
    Oh, I see now. You are saying Patsy lied.
    She said you could lock yourself in?

  45. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
    She said you could lock yourself in?
    No, Murri. Patsy (and John) said the latch did NOT automatically fall into the 6 o'clock position, it had to be turned in order to lock.
    "This Time We Get it Right!"

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

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