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Thread: The Wine Cellar

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    If JonBenet was being dumped outdoors then the blanket as an undoing feature could be salient, but she was placed indoors in a relativley warm room.
    Wrapping in an outdoor setting is a more dramatic example of undoing, however, a cold, mildewy, dirty floor is also something to “protect” a child against.
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)


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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    If the window screens had been placed against the wall, covering JBR's body, they would have provided additional camoflauge.
    Even though her body was behind the door, she lay exposed?
    I know the screens you speak of, but I don't believe they were placed over JB's body at any time. I don't what the point of that would be. I believe she was put in the WC because the Rs claimed she was kidnapped- knew police would come to he house, but they didn't think police would actually do a search. After all they said she was kidnapped- presumed NOT to be in the house.
    I feel what the Rs really planned to do was to wait till the police left, then at some point call them back and say she had been returned- dead- because they had called police.
    See- to me- this is how some of those puzzle pieces fit. The ransom note- yet the body being found in the house. Why hide the body only to "find" her after police come.
    But if their plan (after JB was fatally injured) was to claim she had been returned to them dead because they defied the note and called police that would seem (to them) that they could not be suspects, that no one could ever suspect they had done this because, after all- they were warned not to call anyone , yet they did, so OF COURSE, JB was killed.
    BUT- when it became apparent that police were NOT going to leave that day, and that they themselves might have to leave (and leave JB behind in the WC while the process of death made finding her ever so much more horrific) JR was forced to do what he did- "find" her himself.
    I think they couldn't just go away without finding her at that point. Though they were not experts on forensics, everyone knows what happens to a dead body as the hours (or days) pass. They couldn't let it go that long.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

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  5. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    AC, it’s difficult to tell from this combination of “fuzzy” questions and “fuzzy” answers:

    TRIP DEMUTH: Patsy, I would like to know, the best of your memory, prior to this Christmas, who had gone in that wine cellar.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Well, at Thanksgiving time I asked my cleaning lady, I had kept my big artificial trees in there, and I asked her to come and, you know, put those up while I was gone at Thanksgiving. So I don't know exactly who was with her to help her. She insinuated this is when they were going to also clean some of the windows, she and her husband. I think she also mentioned that her daughter had come to help her, Kristen, I think.
    And they were there on Thanksgiving day, I know, because they (inaudible). They said they brought them something over for Thanksgiving to eat. So I would know that group, one or all of them, took the -- because the trees were up when I got back, so they had to have been in there to get them out of there.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. You know, it wasn't like a full-blown wine cellar, but we kept a couple boxes of wine in there. And I want to say that -- I don't remember whether it was the night of the 23rd, that party or some party we had, I remember somebody saying we are out of red wine. And I said please (inaudible) to or something. But at some time, please go to the basement to get some more red wine, but he would know where that was.
    TOM HANEY: Okay.
    PATSY RAMSEY: This guy named Bob Ballis (phonetic) who did some Christmas decorations, he made these things, you know, a year or more before when we had the Christmas open house. He would know about that.
    TRIP DEMUTH: My question is: Who had been in that room prior to Christmas of '96, Bob Ballis, was he the Christmas of '95?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Right.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. In the months prior to Christmas of 1996 Fleet would have gone in there?
    PATSY RAMSEY: I would say Fleet, the cleaning lady and –
    TRIP DEMUTH: Maybe the husband?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe the husband and maybe the daughter.
    TRIP DEMUTH: How about yourself?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Me, taking hiding.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Would the children go in there?
    PATSY RAMSEY: No. If I had presents in there I would have locked it up.
    TRIP DEMUTH: They couldn't reach that?
    PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Anyone else besides those people actually go into the wine cellar?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Let me think. There were paint cans in there. I think Jay Pedify (phonetic)
    would have been likely back there, but I don't remember when we had him, if he was there painting that fall or not.

    It’s not clear when or if FW may have previously been in the room.
    If he was in the room, he may have been there helping someone such as JR who obviously did know where the light switch was.
    PR may also have been trying to throw FW under the bus.

    Here is a more detailed account of the wine cellar encounter on Dec. 26:
    A. There was a latch, as I recall, that was at the top of the door, and I unlatched it and then opened the -- opened the door and just looked in the room.
    Q. Did you open the door completely to look in?
    A. Wide enough to look in.
    Q. And what did you see?
    A. It was dark
    Q. Totally dark?
    A. As I recall, it was quite dark.
    Q. Did any of the light in the hallway illuminate the area when you opened the door, to some extent?
    A. Perhaps to some extent, but it was quite dark.
    Q. It is my understanding you tried to find a light switch unsuccessfully?
    A. Yes.
    Q. Which side of the wall did you reach for? Left? Right? Describe for me the extent of your effort to locate a light switch in the wine cellar.
    A. I believe I just reached in and felt the wall next to the door and didn't find one, so --
    Q. Did you actually step into the room, though?
    A. I may have put one -- I may have leaned in, placed one foot in.
    Q. Would there be any reason why you would not have simply walked into the room, even though dark, to make an observation?
    A. I don't -- I don't remember why I didn't walk in the room
    Q. But you did not?
    A. I did not walk in the room, other than to, perhaps, lean in or -- far enough to reach around and look for a switch.
    Q. When you couldn't find a switch, what did you do?
    A. I closed the door.
    Q. Did you relatch it?
    A. I believe I relatched it.
    Q. Were you wearing gloves that morning?
    A. No.
    Q. Did you ever -- were you ever asked to give a palm print or fingerprints to the Boulder Police Department?
    A. Yes.
    Q. And you did so?
    A. Yes.
    Q. Do you recall when you were first asked to give fingerprints and palm prints?
    A. Within a few days.
    Q. Within a few days of the murder?
    A. Yes.
    Q. What did you do --
    A. As I recall.
    Q.-- after you closed the door to the wine cellar?
    A. I went back upstairs.
    Fleet White Deposition



    Thank you for clearing that up for me. I swear it was FW that had been there for the wine. I made sure to change my notes (LOL) my notes are scribbles compared to yours.

    Cynic, let me ask you this-- I have also read that JR had bad eye-site thats why he had hired MA. I didnt keep that source in my notes and I could kick myself. But heres what I was wondering, if JR had bad eye-site how is it he saw JBR and FW didnt?

    UK, I so agree with you, FW knows a lot more then we think he does. I would give anything to see the notes that he took that day as well as his thoughts in the days that followed. His actions when he came up after JBR had been found, when he crouched by the table and dialled the 3 numbers and just hung up, curious to know your take on that.

    Also, shouldnt FW have smelled the decay in the room? Or would the smell have been different if she was father back in the room when he himself had looked in there?
    There are things that we don't want to happen but have to accept, things we don't want to know but have to learn, and people we can't live without but have to let go.


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  7. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agatha_C View Post
    Thank you for clearing that up for me. I swear it was FW that had been there for the wine. I made sure to change my notes (LOL) my notes are scribbles compared to yours.

    Cynic, let me ask you this-- I have also read that JR had bad eye-site thats why he had hired MA. I didnt keep that source in my notes and I could kick myself. But heres what I was wondering, if JR had bad eye-site how is it he saw JBR and FW didnt?

    UK, I so agree with you, FW knows a lot more then we think he does. I would give anything to see the notes that he took that day as well as his thoughts in the days that followed. His actions when he came up after JBR had been found, when he crouched by the table and dialled the 3 numbers and just hung up, curious to know your take on that.

    Also, shouldnt FW have smelled the decay in the room? Or would the smell have been different if she was father back in the room when he himself had looked in there?

    The odor at that point isn't THAT strong. Det. Arndt, being familiar with this kind of thing, recognized what at that point is more like a sickly- sweet odor. More like a person who hasn't bathed in a week or so. NOT like what the full-wet-decomposition odor would be. Putrefaction is a horrendous odor. Neighbors or passers-by would smell it. But JB was nowhere near that stage of decomposition.
    A lot of what Arndt smelled was the stale, dried urine too. That would also not be too strong. Kind of like a cloth diaper that had dried with urine in it. FW probably spent seconds, not minutes, looking in the WC. And he was undoubtedly stressed as anyone would be in that situation. The odor wasn't strong enough to hit him in the face. It isn't unusual that he didn't notice it.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.


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  9. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agatha_C View Post
    Cynic, let me ask you this-- I have also read that JR had bad eye-site thats why he had hired MA. I didnt keep that source in my notes and I could kick myself. But heres what I was wondering, if JR had bad eye-site how is it he saw JBR and FW didnt?
    He only required glasses for reading
    LOU SMIT: Let's think back just a little bit, John, because sometimes that's important. The
    sequence of things. First of all, I notice that you need glasses to read. How was it that you could read that note?
    JOHN RAMSEY: It was fairly large print, as I recall. But I can read, if I have to.
    LOU SMIT: What was the lighting like there?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Seems to me it was -- I don't remember it being dark out. But the light was good.
    John Ramsey 1998 interview.
    UK, I so agree with you, FW knows a lot more then we think he does. I would give anything to see the notes that he took that day as well as his thoughts in the days that followed.
    I agree and would like to know as well.
    Also, shouldn’t FW have smelled the decay in the room? Or would the smell have been different if she was father back in the room when he himself had looked in there?
    In addition to what DeeDee said, I would like to add that there would have been a 5.5 hour, or so, time difference between when FW peeked in and when JBR was brought upstairs by JR.
    Last edited by cynic; 02-28-2011 at 11:32 PM.
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)


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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    The odor at that point isn't THAT strong. Det. Arndt, being familiar with this kind of thing, recognized what at that point is more like a sickly- sweet odor. More like a person who hasn't bathed in a week or so. NOT like what the full-wet-decomposition odor would be. Putrefaction is a horrendous odor. Neighbors or passers-by would smell it. But JB was nowhere near that stage of decomposition.
    A lot of what Arndt smelled was the stale, dried urine too. That would also not be too strong. Kind of like a cloth diaper that had dried with urine in it. FW probably spent seconds, not minutes, looking in the WC. And he was undoubtedly stressed as anyone would be in that situation. The odor wasn't strong enough to hit him in the face. It isn't unusual that he didn't notice it.


    Ahhh, I get it now. This really helped me to sort out some things in my mind. Poor FW, Ive been at him hard and he didnt even do it (LOL) Yet I strongly believe that he knows who did. I bet it haunts him.
    There are things that we don't want to happen but have to accept, things we don't want to know but have to learn, and people we can't live without but have to let go.


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  13. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I believe she was put in the WC because the Rs claimed she was kidnapped- knew police would come to he house, but they didn't think police would actually do a search. After all they said she was kidnapped- presumed NOT to be in the house.
    I feel what the Rs really planned to do was to wait till the police left, then at some point call them back and say she had been returned- dead- because they had called police.
    Bits removed from above quote...

    DeeDee, do you really think that given "they" said in their ransom letter not to talk to anyone or her remains wouldn't be returned that any "kidnapper" would risk returning to the house with a dead child and "deliver" her?

    This just strikes me as overkill...especially if the police were going to be keeping an eye on the place and then there's the neighbours who would supposedly keep a closer eye on things. Wouldn't someone notice a LACK of car delivering the body?

    Nah...I don't think they thought much beyond what happened to be honest.
    Smart in that they've got away with it, dumb in that it almost entirely relied on the incompetence of others to work.


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  15. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I know the screens you speak of, but I don't believe they were placed over JB's body at any time. I don't what the point of that would be. I believe she was put in the WC because the Rs claimed she was kidnapped- knew police would come to he house, but they didn't think police would actually do a search. After all they said she was kidnapped- presumed NOT to be in the house.
    I feel what the Rs really planned to do was to wait till the police left, then at some point call them back and say she had been returned- dead- because they had called police.
    See- to me- this is how some of those puzzle pieces fit. The ransom note- yet the body being found in the house. Why hide the body only to "find" her after police come.
    But if their plan (after JB was fatally injured) was to claim she had been returned to them dead because they defied the note and called police that would seem (to them) that they could not be suspects, that no one could ever suspect they had done this because, after all- they were warned not to call anyone , yet they did, so OF COURSE, JB was killed.
    BUT- when it became apparent that police were NOT going to leave that day, and that they themselves might have to leave (and leave JB behind in the WC while the process of death made finding her ever so much more horrific) JR was forced to do what he did- "find" her himself.
    I think they couldn't just go away without finding her at that point. Though they were not experts on forensics, everyone knows what happens to a dead body as the hours (or days) pass. They couldn't let it go that long.
    Heyya DeeDee,

    There are not many items in the wine cellar to further hide JBR's body.
    A few screens piled at an angle do obstruct vision, so I wonered if her body could have been further hidden at one point in time. But regardless, the 'staging' ended with her wrapped in a blanket.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I feel what the Rs really planned to do was to wait till the police left, then at some point call them back and say she had been returned- dead-
    Like a drive by body dump off.


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  17. #54
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    The important difference, is that FW looked around, inside the room, even if it was only near the door, for a light switch, and saw nothing!

    John said, as soon as he pulled open the door, he saw the white blanket and knew he had found her.

    First off, you couldn't see where JonBenet was, until you stepped forward, which he hadn't yet and in experiments, they proved his statements false.

    As for the smell, the wine cellar was not that small, it had a damp odor and JonBenet was wrapped up,

    If nothing else,FW MUST suspect John moved her from deeper within the room. Or, he can see through walls. What do they teach people at Subic Bay?
    ___________________

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  19. #55
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    this really sounds like BS to me.....
    IMO he KNOWS exactly what and how it happened.exactly.

    LOU SMIT: Just a couple of

    23 questions and these are just miscellaneous

    24 questions that I had. In what area of the house

    25 do you think that JonBenet received the injuries

    0727

    1 to her head? This is just from your own --

    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I guess my

    3 impression
    (impression based on what?) is that it was in the basement. But

    4 that's just purely an assumption. We didn't

    5 hear a thing. I think if she had cried out or

    6 -- you know, we would have heard that. I didn't

    7 know she had any head injury at all
    (WHEN didn't you know?). It

    8 wasn't -- I just didn't see --

    9 LOU SMIT: You had no knowledge?

    10 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE

    11 RESPONSE.) I don't know. I just, that's

    12 something that's been difficult for me to think

    13 about it, is what exactly happened
    .

    14 LOU SMIT: And where?

    15 JOHN RAMSEY: And where.

    16 LOU SMIT: Do you think that the

    17 head injury occurred at the same place as the

    18 other injuries, say with the literature?

    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean it's just no

    20 reason to -- to know that. I mean I guess --

    21 well, like I say, I just
    -- that's very

    22 difficult to think about and imagine
    , but I

    23 wondered whether the head injury didn't kill her

    24 and after that they strangled her.



    they who?PR and BR?
    you know,this never crossed my mind....... PDI+BDI.....will think about it


    and "that's very difficult to think about and imagine" is ALWAYS his get-out line!whenever he says that it sounds to me like he actually doesn't wanna fall into a trap!annoying


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  21. #56
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    ughhhhh.....
    what was wrong with these cops?why did they never push or pursue a certain subject?i am so sure one of them would have cracked! and my bet would be on JR!yes.not her,she was way stronger.she played with the cops,she was bored by them,JR was scared.


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  23. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agatha_C View Post
    Thank you for clearing that up for me. I swear it was FW that had been there for the wine. I made sure to change my notes (LOL) my notes are scribbles compared to yours.

    Cynic, let me ask you this-- I have also read that JR had bad eye-site thats why he had hired MA. I didnt keep that source in my notes and I could kick myself. But heres what I was wondering, if JR had bad eye-site how is it he saw JBR and FW didnt?

    UK, I so agree with you, FW knows a lot more then we think he does. I would give anything to see the notes that he took that day as well as his thoughts in the days that followed. His actions when he came up after JBR had been found, when he crouched by the table and dialled the 3 numbers and just hung up, curious to know your take on that.

    Also, shouldnt FW have smelled the decay in the room? Or would the smell have been different if she was father back in the room when he himself had looked in there?
    Agatha_C,
    Cynic, let me ask you this-- I have also read that JR had bad eye-site thats why he had hired MA. I didnt keep that source in my notes and I could kick myself. But heres what I was wondering, if JR had bad eye-site how is it he saw JBR and FW didnt?
    I agree, I also read something similar John's eyesight was not as good as it used to be. So he hired an air-pilot.

    if JR had bad eye-site how is it he saw JBR and FW didnt?
    Spot on. This conflicts with other personal theories, just like the barbie-nightgown, which was simply an oversight on the stagers part, e.g. static cling, and the explanation for it being missed: bad visibility!

    .


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  25. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    Wrapping in an outdoor setting is a more dramatic example of undoing, however, a cold, mildewy, dirty floor is also something to “protect” a child against.
    cynic,

    Well it looks to me as if the Wine-Cellar is a convenient location to hide a body, and the blanket is a convenient artifact for encapsulating the body and other crime-scene items so to carry them to the the interior of the Wine-Cellar. Job Done!

    Undoing, Redoing, to me these are prior subjective states of mind that I have no access to.

    After JonBenet being physically assaulted, whacked on the head, strangled, sexually molested, restrained with nylon cord etc, then placed into the Wine-Cellar. I fail to see why the blanket should assume any particular psychological significance, why not her size-12's, do these represent something in the mind of the stager?


    .


  26. #59
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    So JR had bad eye site and needed reading glasses to boot. Yet he saw his daughters lifeless body on the floor of a pitch dark room and was able to read the RN in poor lighting without his glasses. OMG, JR is really Clark Kent/Superman and he was living right there in Boulder and no one knew it. Maybe we should call the Daily Planet.

    What a bunch of liars the Rs are. I wonder what it must be like to have to live with the reputation those two gave themselves, all while trying to save that very same reputation. Guess what JR, not only do we still see you and yours as guilty and liars. We now see you as Dumb A$$'s, idiots, jerks, slime and worse than beer can collectors, your the scum left in the bottom the trash cans used for recycling. You are/were dung beetles and human trash. I would rather be homeless than rich if this is what money makes of you.

    Sorry, I suddenly had to get that out of my system. The only thing that would feel better is knowing that he reads this.

    JR didnt need his eyes, he already knew she was in the WC (he helped to stage) and knew what was in that RN (He helped to write).
    Last edited by Agatha_C; 03-01-2011 at 03:21 PM.
    There are things that we don't want to happen but have to accept, things we don't want to know but have to learn, and people we can't live without but have to let go.


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  28. #60
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    UK,

    On page 88 of Steve Thomas' book he states that " When Cataracts diminished his vision, JR had to hire a private pilot."

    JR, had cateracts, and he could still see his child in the dark and read in poor lighting... LIARS!

    Heres a link to that page... http://books.google.com/books?id=daO...0Sr41xfJHhfxiA
    Last edited by Agatha_C; 03-01-2011 at 04:39 PM.
    There are things that we don't want to happen but have to accept, things we don't want to know but have to learn, and people we can't live without but have to let go.


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