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Thread: MI - Oakland County Child Killer, "The Babysitter Murders" , 1976-77 #2

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    MI - Oakland County Child Killer, "The Babysitter Murders" , 1976-77 #2

    For 13 months from 1976 to 1977, four children were abducted and killed. The killer was dubbed "the Baby-sitter" because he kept his victims alive for days, feeding and bathing them before murdering the children, leaving their bodies for others to find.

    The victims were 12-year-old Mark Stebbins, abducted while walking near his Ferndale home Feb. 15, 1976; 12-year-old Jill Robinson, taken in Royal Oak on Dec. 22, 1976; 10-year-old Kristine Mihelich, snatched near her Berkley home Jan. 2, 1977; and 11-year-old Timothy King, kidnapped from a grocery store parking lot near his home in Birmingham on March 16, 1977.



    This is a fresh start for those who have been actively discussing and sleuthing these cases. Please attack the post, not the poster, link all info to the MSM source or documents. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact a Mod. Please do not discuss previously moderated posts or any posters who have been moderated.

    Feel free to bring over any posts from the old thread that you feel are relevant.

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    "The Babysitter" Oakland County Michigan 1976-77

    I started the origional thread on "The Babysitter" here on Websleuths back in 2004. Since that time, there have been close to 20,000 viewings of it.

    I hardly think that we need to start another thread from scratch and assign credit to a new "thread starter" because of some innapropriate comments that have already been removed.

    At least transfer the basic case summary and dates to get things started again. The way this thread is set up, it is absolutely necessary to look at the origional thread to comment on this one.

    <modsnip>
    This is a discussion type of forum, and therefore mistakes, misunderstandings and certainly disagreements take place. I, for one, certainly do not claim to have all the answers on this case or on any case for that matter. I hope none of my posts have offended anyone, but if so please don't hesitate to let me know.

    Here is a link to the origional thread:

    "The Babysitter" Oakland County Michigan 1976-77 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

    LINK:

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16394"]MI - "The Babysitter" Oakland County Michigan 1976-77 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
    Last edited by believe09; 03-10-2011 at 04:33 PM. Reason: objecting to moderation

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    Richard, I totally agree with you - why start another thread from scratch?

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    The deed is done, and the thread is closed. This is a great opportunity for those who wish to resurrect discussion lines without the distraction.
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    It was very scary at the time that this was happening. I had 3 young children at the time and we were afraid to even let our kids go outside to play. We constantly watched for the car fitting the description of the suspect's vehicle. We read in the newspaper that the bodies were always put out by the road after a fresh snow. The whole thing was so bazaar. Years later, some people thought a certain man who had died had been the killer. He was eventually exhumed and his DNA didn't match a hair found on one of the children. Back to square one. I can't remember the name of the woman who thought she knew the killer and she followed him up north and talked with him and saw things he had collected in a box that appeared to have belonged to some of the missing victims. Police didn't take her very seriously. She had a blog about it on the Internet. I still think the police should have done more research into her claims and on the man she believed was the killer. I sometimes wonder if the crimes will ever be solved and if the killer is still alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan View Post
    It was very scary at the time that this was happening. I had 3 young children at the time and we were afraid to even let our kids go outside to play. We constantly watched for the car fitting the description of the suspect's vehicle. We read in the newspaper that the bodies were always put out by the road after a fresh snow. The whole thing was so bazaar. Years later, some people thought a certain man who had died had been the killer. He was eventually exhumed and his DNA didn't match a hair found on one of the children. Back to square one. I can't remember the name of the woman who thought she knew the killer and she followed him up north and talked with him and saw things he had collected in a box that appeared to have belonged to some of the missing victims. Police didn't take her very seriously. She had a blog about it on the Internet. I still think the police should have done more research into her claims and on the man she believed was the killer. I sometimes wonder if the crimes will ever be solved and if the killer is still alive.
    I believe she posted on here for a little while Jan-is this who you are thinking of? (Check the first thread for her posts)

    Quote Originally Posted by Helen Dagner View Post
    Hi,so happy to be here...and to see that Richard started this thread...i have been working on this case for over 14years...and i spent 9mo's with John...who told me he is the OCCK...or The Babysitter...as some still call him.I have over40,000 post on the web...and am still at it...I would like all of you...who are Interested to go on line...see what is out there...and then come back...and we can talk....http://www.geocities.com/jtoddmatthe...ders.html?This is the url...for the original story....you can however type into a search...Helen Dagner or Oakland County Child Killer...and you will find many post...of interest...This is the 28th year...that this case has gone unsolved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Helen Dagner View Post
    Richard,I do know where John is today,however because something has just come up in the OCCK case in the past two weeks...maybe I should hold off on telling you.Actually there are no dozen suspects...that was an error that was made by a Detroit TV producer...then picked up by that areas...newspaper media.I agree that most killings that stop...are for the reasons you stated...How ever John...is not your run of the mill Serial Killer...and I'm not really sure he has stopped...or that he ever did stop...I'm thinking now...that he may have just....changed his MO....I guess it may sound to some that John...was just bragging to me about the murders....but that wasn't the case....first he talked to me in the third person...then he made a Freudian slip...and I persued it.Richard,when john killed the 4 children,now known as the Oakland County Child Killer victims....he had already been practicing...for a few years...when he perfected his craft...that is when he designed his MO....his motive...was not to kill the children...like in being EVIL...he told me...at the time....he felt he was saving the children-from life as he knew it....and making a statement to the world...he said he had no other way of doing it...what ever his reasoning...the children still ended up dead.
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    EXCLUSIVE: New Person Identified In Oakland County Child Killer Case

    POSTED: Wednesday, May 18, 2011
    UPDATED: 8:06 am EDT May 19, 2011


    snip
    There are four blockbuster new pieces of evidence:

    1. White animal hair connects all four cases.
    2. A DNA match from new hairs discovered on one of the victims leads to this new suspect.
    3. Police find a startling drawing at a suspect's home.
    4. A police report surfaces from the 1970s that sent investigators looking around a northern Michigan cottage Tuesday afternoon.
    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/27944695/detail.html
    "LIGHTING THE WAY HOME"

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfrohning View Post
    EXCLUSIVE: New Person Identified In Oakland County Child Killer Case

    POSTED: Wednesday, May 18, 2011
    UPDATED: 8:06 am EDT May 19, 2011


    snip
    There are four blockbuster new pieces of evidence:

    1. White animal hair connects all four cases.
    2. A DNA match from new hairs discovered on one of the victims leads to this new suspect.
    3. Police find a startling drawing at a suspect's home.
    4. A police report surfaces from the 1970s that sent investigators looking around a northern Michigan cottage Tuesday afternoon.
    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/27944695/detail.html
    According to police reports obtained by the Defenders, police think the hair belongs to 49-year-old James Vincent Gunnels. Gunnels was in police custody until just one month ago, living in a halfway house in Kalamazoo. He has a long history of property crimes, but never has been charged in any criminal sexual case. The victims' families were recently told Gunnels would stay in prison for decades unless he cooperated in the Oakland County Child Killer case. But tonight Gunnels is a free man -- police saying they do not have enough evidence to hold him or charge him.
    According to hundreds of police documents scrutinized by the Defenders, investigators believe Gunnels may have been part of a group involved in the child killings or a lure to draw the kids closer to the killer. Gunnels was only 16-years-old at the time. Police investigating Gunnels have learned he was molested by a key suspect in the Oakland County Child Killer case -- a man named Christopher Busch.
    More at the link...

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    I watched the news segment on this last night and was disappointed. Sounds like another dead end. This new evidence is largely useless. The DNA, as it turns out, is mitochondrial DNA which means that it did not narrow down the suspects to an individual but only to “one percent of the Caucasian male population” which Gunnels falls into. The problem is, of course, tens of millions of people fall into this category at any given time and thousands of them live in Michigan at any given time.

    The segment also brought up a snatch of a phone conversation overheard between Gunnels and his sister as she talked to him through prison glass while he was incarcerated recently. She told him his DNA was found all over the OCCK victims to which he responded, “I wasn’t there when it happened.” That response, obviously, could mean almost anything. What it cannot mean is that Gunnels was confessing to the murders or admitting any guilt at all. Also brought up was that Gunnels took a polygraph concerning the murders but appeared to be holding his breath to cause false readings. But what does this mean? Nothing or anything, take your pick.

    Busch’s death was covered in the segment including the showing of bloody ligatures found at the scene and a pencil drawing of a screaming boy said to look like Mark Stebbins. The problem, of course, is that it is only a drawing and could have been anybody. Even stranger was the picture of Mark Stebbins to which the drawing was compared for our convenience also appeared to be a drawing (???). How valid is comparing one drawing to another for identification purposes when photographs are available? Because, juding from the only photograph I've ever seen of Mark Stebbins, he actually doesn't look all that much like the drawing found at the Busch death scene. Maybe I'm wrong but why didn't they give us a photo to look at?? The segment also admitted nothing at the scene of Busch’s death linked Busch to OCCK including DNA testing of items removed from the scene. Whether anything there linked him to Gunnels was also not mentioned. While the segment presented the photos of the ligatures and screaming boy drawing as never before seen in public, the news of these items have nevertheless long been known among internet sleuthers.

    They showed Mark Stebbins's brother commenting on the drawing and saying it looked just llike his brother. What was not brought up was that the Stebbins family had originally accused Theodore Lamborgine as the one who kidnapped and killed Mark. Now, it's Chris Busch. The problem is, if you look at any of the main suspects, you can make them look guilty if you play up on certain things and downplay others. The bottom line is that there is no evidence Chris Busch was ever in any contact with any of the victims.

    What was just as noteworthy in the segment was not so much what was said but what was not. For example, the segment brought up that identical dog hairs were found on the bodies of all the victims. Yet, the type of dog was not identified nor was there any mention of a dog at the Busch cottage. They told us what certain victims had seen while they were there but did not say that any of them saw a dog. If they had seen one, why didn't the reporter mention this? Obviously nobody saw one and the dog is very important because if you find out who owned it, you find the killer. No one knows of Busch owning a dog.

    Regarding Jill Robinson being shot in the face with a 12-gauge shotgun, the segment revealed that one boy who had been to the Busch cottage where Busch molested or attempted to molest him stated that Busch had also taught him how to fire a 12-gauge shotgun. But the segment neglected to mention that no 12-gauge shotgun was ever recovered in Busch’s possession and even if he did have one that by itself, of course, doesn’t prove anything since 12-gauge shotguns are extremely common among gun-owners in the United States. Also not addressed is why Busch would have abducted girls when he was strictly into boys. In fact, no female victims of Busch have ever come forward that I know of. They also forgot to mention that Busch passed a polygraph shortly after he was busted as part of the North Fox Island porn ring indicating he did not abduct or murder Mark Stebbins.

    I think the killer was too careful to leave his/her hairs on the victims. Why go through all the trouble of bathing the bodies and washing the clothes only to leave hairs on the victims’ bodies? The hairs, in all likelihood, do not belong to the killer and may even have been placed deliberately to confuse forensics experts.

    None of this evidence could pass muster in front of a grand jury although the segment reported that police are discussing the possibility. Unless something vital was withheld in the segment, nothing was presented other than circumstantial evidence and nothing beyond a reasonable doubt. The evidence is, in fact, very weak. This segment is just the latest in a long line of news specials that surface every few years to remind the public about the killings. All claim to have found new evidence. None of the evidence ever leads anywhere and certainly nothing from this latest one ever will. In fact, police have released Gunnels saying they have no evidence that compels them to continue holding him.

    I think the police might be trying to close this case due to pressure from the families of the victims and Chris Busch makes as good a scapegoat as any. I think the cops want this case closed--whatever it takes. When members of Tim King's family stated on this segment that even if Gunnels had nothing to with the killings, since he had been in Busch's car a number of times and the children had his hair on their clothes, it puts them in Busch's car as well. Needless to say, a red flag went up immediately in my mind. If they picked up Gennel's hair in Busch's car, wouldn't they have picked up SOMETHING from Busch himself since it was, after all, his car??? And despite what they say, they NOT proven the hair was Gunnels' hair--it COULD be. They are going to hang this on Chris Busch if they can without anything solid to do it with and that means that if he is not the killer--and nothing concrete says he is--then the real killer is going to get away with it. And that will be a huge shame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omori View Post
    . . .and that means that if he is not the killer--and nothing concrete says
    he is--then the real killer is going to get away with it. And that will be a huge shame.
    Whether you are right or wrong I am glad to know people are looking carefuly
    at the evidence & thinking about it all to be sure the truth comes out so whoever is guilty
    does not entirely get away with it.

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    I wonder if this dead guy is the same guy that a recent poster here told us about before the earlier thread was closed. IIRC, she said the guy was dead already, but he was one of the Long Island child molesters. I hope she comes back and tells us what she knows.
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    She doesn't know anything and she proved over and over again. Please don't encourage her.

    What I wonder is if the cops, have checked out what type of dog the hairs belong to and have then looked to see who owned that kind of dog in this area. Since dogs owners are required to license dogs then there's a pool of potential suspects to look at. by combing the records. Too late now probably. I mean, they MUST have done that, you would think. The killer is too crafty to be caught that easily, I suppose.

    The dog ties these murders together so it's a MAJOR clue--perhaps the most important clue in this entire case. Whose dog was it?? It was obviously employed to keep the children company. Why wasn't this fact played up in the press? I was not aware of it before that news segment. Were the police only now revealing it??? And I still don't know what kind of dog it was. I mean, good god!! Put it out through the media and let the phone calls pour in and check out every damn one of them. If none of them pan out then we could be sure the area where this dog is kept is remote. It's really the most important clue they had, what were they doing sitting on it???

    Makes wonder what else they sat on that the pbulic needs to know and which probably would have broken the case long ago if they had. Idiots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omori View Post
    I watched the news segment on this last night and was disappointed. Sounds like another dead end. This new evidence is largely useless.......
    Very well said! I had the same thoughts as I watched the much hyped news report. Local media rolls out a "new evidence in the OCCK case" every year or two...usually around sweeps week.

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    It's going from bad to worse. I just watched the news and the the anchor guy says there's new information about Gunnels that News4 obtained from a woman who has involved herself in the investigation. I thought, "Oh, my god, I'll bet it's Terri Lynn!!!" And, sure enough, some woman by the name of Terri appears on my screen claiming she's been trading emails with this guy. I just looked at the ceiling and shook my head.

    One of the anchors introduced the case as one that has haunted residents "since the early seventies." Uhhh...the first murder occurred in 1976 and the other three in 1977. That would be the late seventies. This thing all over the place while all involved seem to be playing very fast and very loose with the facts.

    They once again say that Gunnels' hair was found on one of the victims but it is MITOCHONDRIAL DNA!!! It is not a positive match! And what did Gunnels say to Terri Lynn? Basically, that the authorities have treated him like the murderer when he is a victim of Chris Busch. That's it. That's what he keeps saying. He admits to nothing. He even told Terri Lynn that he was victimized by Chris Busch only and does not know the other people she's talking about but we know that she has a tendency to place unnamed, unknown suspects where none previously existed without offering a bit of proof in so doing so that's not surprising.

    Anyway the emails are on ClickOn Detroit so you can go there if you want to waste your time on this red herring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    I wonder if this dead guy is the same guy that a recent poster here told us about before the earlier thread was closed. IIRC, she said the guy was dead already, but he was one of the Long Island child molesters. I hope she comes back and tells us what she knows.
    Can you please elaborate on "Long Island child molesters". I am from Long Island.

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    I don't know if my case is related or not (probably not),
    but I grew up near this area in the late 1980s / early 90's and a man attempted to abduct me.
    I was 9 years old at the time.

    One of the victims was from Ferndale apparently. I just looked it up and that is ~2 miles from where I lived.

    I grew up in this area 10-15 years later, so there is a clear time gap there, but seems like whoever tried to abduct me was never caught either.
    1. I never reported it to police
    2. I can't find any records of serial molestors / child killers being caught in that area.

    If anyone has more information on potentially other perps in the area at the time I lived there, please let me know. Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OggLurker View Post
    Can you please elaborate on "Long Island child molesters". I am from Long Island.
    We had a long discussion on it here in this thread, but it got pretty heated, so I think it was deleted. But according to Terri Lynn, who grew up with some of the victims in this case, there was a group of pedophiles operating in an underground club, and she believes one of them was the 'babysitter.' The others were used to lure kids and groom them, but he himself chose some to kill.

    She named some of them, but they have all been killed themselves, and she said it was done to protect the identity of the child killer.
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    Also someone posted this in the original thread:

    "Old files...
    I think that a possible answer to who this guy is might be found in old police files. Considering all the children that the killer was able to successfully abduct, I would think it possible that other attempts were made which were foiled or aborted. For instance, is there a report or reports from the Oakland County area before, during, or shortly after this string of related murders it might contain a description of the man and his methods?"

    I am willing to share my story if it would be of any help, but again, this happened to me more than a dozen years later near that same area.

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    New Person Identified In Oakland County Child Killer Case

    There is new hope for solving the murders of Mark Stebbins, Kristin Mihelich, Jill Robinson and Timothy King.

    There are four blockbuster new pieces of evidence:

    1. White animal hair connects all four cases.
    2. A DNA match from new hairs discovered on one of the victims leads to this new suspect.
    3. Police find a startling drawing at a suspect's home.
    4. A police report surfaces from the 1970s that sent investigators looking around a northern Michigan cottage Tuesday afternoon.

    The white animal hair believed to be from a dog is found on all four victims. It tells investigators that the murders are definitely connected.

    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/27944695/detail.html
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    Previous Oakland County Child Killer Stories:
    (Go to the link below and it will link you to each of these media reports)

    April 23, 2010: Lawsuit Filed In '70s Child Killer Case

    October 18, 2007: Lawsuit Filed In Oakland County Child Killer Case

    December 20, 2006: Alleged Victim Testifies Against Lamborgine

    December 13, 2006: Man Claims He Knows Name Of 'Oakland County Child Killer'

    December 12, 2006: Prosecutor: Man Suspect In 'Oakland County Child Killer' Case

    December 11, 2006: 2 Men Accused Of Child Sex Crimes In Court

    May 15, 2006: Raar Fired From Detroit Newspapers

    May 12, 2006: Police Hope Man Holds Clue In 'Child Killer' Case

    May 11, 2006: Tip Investigated In Oakland County Child Killer Case

    November 30, 2005: Police Receive DNA Results In 1970s Child Slayings

    June 17, 2005: Will DNA Sample Solve 1970s Child Killer Case?

    February 18, 2005: Detectives Step Up Search For 1970s Child Killer

    July 22, 2004: Local Man Wins Battle To Keep Father Behind Bars

    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/27944695/detail.html
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    Photos of Suspect's Suicide Scene

    Photos of Oakland County Child Killer suspect's suicide scene released

    Photographs are of Christopher Busch's suicide scene


    Published On: Jan 10 2012 10:25:35 AM EST Updated On: Jan 10 2012 10:36:27 AM EST

    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/i...z/-/index.html

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    Omori, thanks for the new perspective. I only became aware of these cases over the past year and was at the other end of the U.S. when they occurred. The Wed/Sunday pattern I hadn't seen before nor the astrology connection. I'll be looking for that on more recent cases now because I don't believe at all that someone would kill 4 children then just quit. He probably moved or changed his M.O. or both.

    The perspective on sodomy with objects doesn't lead me to think automatically female or an impotent male. From the descriptions of the killings, he is an impersonal, well planned, and methodical killer. That does not mean he is impotent. My thoughts are more of a highly controlled killer. As much a spectator in his own killings as a participant. A highly organized intelligent killer would be well able to plan his killing and select his victims by name as well as link the to the zodiac for the dates. Symbolism in the dates and what he is doing does not have to be carved onto a victim. Maybe he even reads on serial killings and changes M.O. to do what others have done only "better?" Highly organized, and he wouldn't have just stopped.

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    Pasting Omori's post from the prior forum

    All were abducted or recovered on or the day after holidays: Stebbins vanished the day after Valentine's Day and was his body was recovered the day Aquarius ends. Robinson was abducted on the winter solstice and her body recovered the day after Christmas (a.k.a. Boxing day). Mihelich was abducted the day after the New Year and her body recovered on the day Aquarius commences. Timmy King was abducted the day after the Ides of March (the day that Caesar and Christ were said to have died) and his body was recovered the day after the vernal equinox. There is no reason to believe this is a coincidence since the murders betray a number of other patterns. The holidays, in fact, may have dictated why each victim was held for the length of time they were. All four victims' bodies were recovered within the month in which each vanished. None straddled two months.

    Robinson was abducted the latest into the month and kept for the least amount of time. Mihelich was abducted the earliest in the month and kept for the longest time while the two male victims were abducted in the middle of the month. Robinson vanished on December 22, Mihelich’s body was recovered on January 21. Stebbins vanished on February 15 and King disappeared on March 16. So the two female victims share a month-and-a-day relationship as do the two male victims.


    It’s too much to be coincidence. I said earlier that this angle may have dictated why the children were held the length of time they were. Or is it coincidence that Kristine Mihelich was abducted the day after New Year's and her body found on the commencement of Aquarius? Then another victim is found at the close of Aquarius. That’s a bit much to chalk up to coincidence.

    So I think we have to seriously entertain that the killer was an astrology nut. He was consulting the stars about when to kill, whom to kill, how to kill them and where to place the bodies. This would mean the killer was adept at casting horoscopes. Or was he? He could have been seeing an astrologer adept at casting horoscopes.

    What is striking is that just a short walk from where Mihelich vanished is the Mayflower Bookstore and the owner does indeed cast horoscopes and has many clients including some very famous ones. When I asked him how long his store was at that location, he said since 1985—long after the killing spree. But he also said he founded Mayflower in 1971 and that it was originally located on Woodward near 9 Mile (where the Om Café now sits) close to where Stebbins disappeared. There is no other bookstore in this area with the extensive catalog of books and astrology clients that Mayflower has—it’s kind of the 800 lb gorilla in the room. So, I wonder if the killer was a client of Mayflower? It is possible the owner may have cast this individual’s horoscope. It is possible the killer is still a customer or client of Mayflower.

    I cast no aspersions on Mayflower itself, it is a very fine establishment offering a catalog of books that can’t be found anywhere else in this area that I know of. Usually, one has to go to California or New York to find such a place. I have never spoken with the owner about OCCK. It’s not the kind of subject one wants to have brought up in one’s own business establishment with customers roaming around and what not. But he has been in business here for 40 years and knows all kinds of people. I would be very interested in getting his take on the killings. I don’t know if the cops ever questioned him because I don’t know if they ever noticed the astrological connections. I cast no aspersions on the owner. I’ve known him for many years and he’s a good guy. But I do wonder if among his clientele going back four decades if one of them might possibly be the one now known as the Babysitter. And could he still be a client?

    There seems to be a 3 and 1 pattern concerning certain aspects. For instance, three of the bodies were found in Oakland County but one was found in Wayne. Three bodies were found in pristine condition but one had been shot in the face. Three of the victims were kept less than a week while one was kept for 19 days. Of the months each victim was taken—December, January, February and March—three of them occur after the New Year and one before it.


    When I look at the 3 and 1 aspect, it seems to me to be more than a coincidence. I don’t know if the killer was consciously setting one victim off from the others, it could be something done subconsciously so I began searching through Jung, who has done so much work on the subconscious and I’ll quote verbatim what he wrote. Jung recounts various fairytales which he asserts carry a plethora of subconscious symbolism. This is from his book Archetypes and the Collection Unconscious:

    “Between the three and the four there exists the primary opposition of male and female, but whereas fourness is a symbol of wholeness, threeness is not. The latter, according to alchemy, denotes polarity, since one triad always presupposes another, just as high presupposes low, lightness darkness, good evil. In terms of energy, polarity means a potential, and wherever potential exists there is the possibility of a current, a flow of events, for the tension of opposites strives for balance….In psychological language we should say that when the unconscious wholeness becomes manifest, i.e. leaves the unconscious and crosses over into the sphere of consciousness, one of the four remain behind, held fast by the horror vacui of the unconscious. There thus arises a triad, which as we know—not from the fairytale but from the history of symbolism—constellates a corresponding triad in opposition to it—in other words, a conflict ensues. Here too we could ask with Socrates, ‘One, two, three—but, my dear Timaeus, of those who yesterday were banqueters and today are banquet-givers, where is the fourth?’ He has remained in the realm of the dark mother, caught by the wolfish greed of the unconscious, which is unwilling to let anything escape from its magic circle save at the cost of a sacrifice.”

    I did not ever read this before today and yet we can see the three and one explained psychologically. Three are set free and one remains behind with the “dark mother” which again nags at us with the idea of a female killer. Someone had brought up that the killer seemed to choose locales, streets and roads with nature themes: Oakland, Oakshire, Greenfield, Woodward, Maple, Big Beaver, Gill, Forest Drive and so on. I brought up the possibility that perhaps the killer fancies himself a predator in the wilderness and may be a hunting enthusiast. Here is what Jung writes regarding psychological symbolism:

    “The hunter or old magician and the witch correspond to the negative parental images in the magic world of the unconscious. The hunter first appears in the story as a black raven. He has stolen away the princess and holds her prisoner. She describes him as ‘the devil.’ But it is exceedingly odd that he himself is locked up in the one forbidden room of the castle and fixed to the wall with three nails, as though crucified. He is imprisoned, like all jailers, in his own prison, and bound like all who curse….The crucifixion evidently betokens a state of agonizing bondage and suspension, fit punishment for one foolhardy enough to venture like a Prometheus into the orbit of the opposing principle. This was what the raven, who is identical to the hunter, did when he ravished a precious soul from the upper world of light; and so, as a punishment, he is nailed to the wall in that upper world….In our fairytale, the peculiar instrument of the magic spell is the triad of nails. Who it was that made the raven captive is not told in the tale, but it sounds as if a spell had been laid upon him in the triune name.”

    I'm not going to comment on this angle any further. I don't want to tell anyone how to think on this. You may discard completely if you wish. But it's somewhat eerie, is it not?
    #138
    Old 03-07-2011, 12:12 AM
    Omori Omori is offline
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    The conclusion then is that the killer is not a pedophile. The killer took two boys and two girls to represent both unity and balance as well as perfect innocence. S/he then destroys this unity and balance by setting one off from the other three. Justice is represented by a scale or balance so by setting one off and upsetting the balance, justice or unity would never be realized. The killer will only allow it if the world makes the proper sacrifice—whatever that is.

    Another 3 and 1 pattern that cannot be denied once one notices it, is that starting in the winter of ’76, the killer took Jill Robison. After the New Year of that same winter, he took Kristine Mihelich. These abductions occurred in December and January. The killer was on a roll and so the next victim should have vanished by February but instead that month was skipped and Tim King vanished in March. Why was February skipped? Because Mark Stebbins had been abducted in February the year before. That month was already taken. Does this sound like a pedophile just trying to get his rocks off? The killer was very mindful of the months he was killing. As I mentioned, Kristine was taken earliest in the month and kept the longest and Jill was taken latest in the month and kept the shortest. What more proof do we need that the killer had an aversion to overlapping into another month? Would a pedophile care about something like that? No. This person was not a pedophile. This person was abducting children as some type of sacrifice. The sodomizing of the two boys may have been ritualistic or could have been done in hopes of making people think a pedophile had done the deed. For some reason, he couldn’t bring him/herself to molest the girls.

    Still not convinced? In astrology, there is there are what are known as decans. When a zodiacal constellation such as Libra or Virgo or Cancer rises, the priests of the temples would watch for certain non-zodiacal constellations or asterisms (a smaller grouping of stars within a larger constellation) to appear every 10 days—hence the term “decan.” So each zodiacal constellation is attended by three decan constellations that rise ten days apart.

    · Jill Robinson vanished on December 22, that’s the very day Capricorn commences and the first decan of Capricorn rises—Sagitta the arrow (not Sagittarius the archer). He is depicted as in the acting of drawing his bow and Jill was found shot in the face.
    · Kristine Mihelich vanished on January 2, that’s the very day the second decan of Capricorn rises—Aquila the eagle. Her body was recovered at the commencement of Aquarius but the first decan of Aquarius—Piscis Australis the Southern Fish—and the third decan of Capricorn—Delphinus the dolphin—are both visible.
    · Mark Stebbins’s body was recovered on February 19, which ended Aquarius but which is also listed as the commencement of Pisces and on that very day, the first decan of Pisces rises—an asterism called The Band which binds the two fish of Pisces together.
    · Tim King vanished on March 16, during the third decan of Pisces—Andromeda. Andromeda in myth was chained to rock to be sacrificed to a sea monster. That monster was Cetus the whale. Likewise the band that holds the two fish of Pisces was joined to Cetus (making a triad again).
    · The killer either saw him/herself as Cetus the monster who devours the sacrifice or as the one who offers the sacrifice to Cetus. The fish of Pisces are represented then as Mark and Tim and hence both were bound. Both were claimed by the killer in the form of sodomizing the boys with an object.
    · The symbolism is that fish represent the redeemed multitudes and the goat is traditionally the animal sacrificed for atonement of sins—what is known as the scapegoat. Capricorn is half-fish and half-goat which is shown collapsing and dying in the front goat half but full of vigor in the back fish half. It represents “the goat of the atonement slain for the redeemed.”


    http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/images/17sagitta.gif

    “This strange goat-fish, dying in its head, but living in its afterpart--falling as an eagle pierced and wounded by the arrow of death, but springing up from the dark waves with the matchless vigour and beauty of the dolphin--sinking under sin's condemnation, but rising again as sin's conqueror--developing new life out of death, and hearlding a new springtime out of December's long drear nights--was framed by no blind chance of man. The story which it tells is the old, old story on which hangs the only availing hope that ever came, or ever can come, to Adam's race. To what it signifies we are for ever shut up as the only saving faith. In that dying Seed of the woman we must see our sin-bearer and the atonement for our guilt, or die ourselves unpardoned and unsanctified. Through His death and bloodshedding we must find our life, or the true life, which alone is life, we never can have.” –Dr. Joseph Seiss, The Gospel in the Stars

    Then we look at the names of the victims: Mark named after Mars the god of war, Jill a feminine form of Julius or “son of Jove,” Tim or Timothy or “honoring God” and Kristine which is a form of “Christ.” Jill was the sacrificial goat to atone for the masses and redeem them. She is a child of god but must die and be reborn in order for this to be realized because she has been sullied in this life by an unjust war (Vietnam) represented by Mark. Kristine is Christ the son who is pierced with an arrow and dies for our sins just as Aquila is shown dying after being pierced and then rises as Delphinus the dolphin springing up from the raging sea or matter—this defiled, bloody world—as the risen Christ who conquers sin and redeems the masses. Tim represents Andromeda whose purity is offered to War in order to honor God. He is the sacrificial lamb, a purified form of the scapegoat represented by Jill and so his body is left on Gill(ian) Road in March—named after Mars, the God of War to whom he is offered to honor God and redeem the masses.

    Seen in this way, then, Allen may have been legit. The Babysitter may, in fact, have been someone who killed children in Vietnam and sought to redeem American society by offering four innocents to the war—a mission he saw as divine, as one written in the stars. Allen, in fact, means “rock.” Andromeda was chained to a rock when offered to Cetus as a sacrifice. Dr. Bruce Danto, who actually spoke with Allen over the phone, thought the man sounded somewhat Middle Eastern and hence Allen may have been Arabic or Persian. Strangely, in the 4th and 5th centuries, a large Iranian tribe emigrated to Europe called the Alans.

  39. #24
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    Goodness Sunshine777, I can't even begin to follow all that but you certainly made some good points. Have you given any input on the Zodiac killer? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that. This has been very interesting even if I don't understand it.
    Where's Logan Tucker?

  40. #25
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    This bee my opinion

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