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  1. #16
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    I don't know if my case is related or not (probably not),
    but I grew up near this area in the late 1980s / early 90's and a man attempted to abduct me.
    I was 9 years old at the time.

    One of the victims was from Ferndale apparently. I just looked it up and that is ~2 miles from where I lived.

    I grew up in this area 10-15 years later, so there is a clear time gap there, but seems like whoever tried to abduct me was never caught either.
    1. I never reported it to police
    2. I can't find any records of serial molestors / child killers being caught in that area.

    If anyone has more information on potentially other perps in the area at the time I lived there, please let me know. Thank you.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by OggLurker View Post
    Can you please elaborate on "Long Island child molesters". I am from Long Island.
    We had a long discussion on it here in this thread, but it got pretty heated, so I think it was deleted. But according to Terri Lynn, who grew up with some of the victims in this case, there was a group of pedophiles operating in an underground club, and she believes one of them was the 'babysitter.' The others were used to lure kids and groom them, but he himself chose some to kill.

    She named some of them, but they have all been killed themselves, and she said it was done to protect the identity of the child killer.
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn

  3. #18
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    Also someone posted this in the original thread:

    "Old files...
    I think that a possible answer to who this guy is might be found in old police files. Considering all the children that the killer was able to successfully abduct, I would think it possible that other attempts were made which were foiled or aborted. For instance, is there a report or reports from the Oakland County area before, during, or shortly after this string of related murders it might contain a description of the man and his methods?"

    I am willing to share my story if it would be of any help, but again, this happened to me more than a dozen years later near that same area.

  4. #19

    New Person Identified In Oakland County Child Killer Case

    There is new hope for solving the murders of Mark Stebbins, Kristin Mihelich, Jill Robinson and Timothy King.

    There are four blockbuster new pieces of evidence:

    1. White animal hair connects all four cases.
    2. A DNA match from new hairs discovered on one of the victims leads to this new suspect.
    3. Police find a startling drawing at a suspect's home.
    4. A police report surfaces from the 1970s that sent investigators looking around a northern Michigan cottage Tuesday afternoon.

    The white animal hair believed to be from a dog is found on all four victims. It tells investigators that the murders are definitely connected.

    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/27944695/detail.html

  5. #20
    Previous Oakland County Child Killer Stories:
    (Go to the link below and it will link you to each of these media reports)

    April 23, 2010: Lawsuit Filed In '70s Child Killer Case

    October 18, 2007: Lawsuit Filed In Oakland County Child Killer Case

    December 20, 2006: Alleged Victim Testifies Against Lamborgine

    December 13, 2006: Man Claims He Knows Name Of 'Oakland County Child Killer'

    December 12, 2006: Prosecutor: Man Suspect In 'Oakland County Child Killer' Case

    December 11, 2006: 2 Men Accused Of Child Sex Crimes In Court

    May 15, 2006: Raar Fired From Detroit Newspapers

    May 12, 2006: Police Hope Man Holds Clue In 'Child Killer' Case

    May 11, 2006: Tip Investigated In Oakland County Child Killer Case

    November 30, 2005: Police Receive DNA Results In 1970s Child Slayings

    June 17, 2005: Will DNA Sample Solve 1970s Child Killer Case?

    February 18, 2005: Detectives Step Up Search For 1970s Child Killer

    July 22, 2004: Local Man Wins Battle To Keep Father Behind Bars

    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/27944695/detail.html

  6. #21
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    BetteDavisEyes is offline "Fasten your seatbelts. It's going to be a bumpy night."
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    Photos of Suspect's Suicide Scene

    Photos of Oakland County Child Killer suspect's suicide scene released

    Photographs are of Christopher Busch's suicide scene


    Published On: Jan 10 2012 10:25:35 AM EST Updated On: Jan 10 2012 10:36:27 AM EST

    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/i...z/-/index.html

  7. #22
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    Omori, thanks for the new perspective. I only became aware of these cases over the past year and was at the other end of the U.S. when they occurred. The Wed/Sunday pattern I hadn't seen before nor the astrology connection. I'll be looking for that on more recent cases now because I don't believe at all that someone would kill 4 children then just quit. He probably moved or changed his M.O. or both.

    The perspective on sodomy with objects doesn't lead me to think automatically female or an impotent male. From the descriptions of the killings, he is an impersonal, well planned, and methodical killer. That does not mean he is impotent. My thoughts are more of a highly controlled killer. As much a spectator in his own killings as a participant. A highly organized intelligent killer would be well able to plan his killing and select his victims by name as well as link the to the zodiac for the dates. Symbolism in the dates and what he is doing does not have to be carved onto a victim. Maybe he even reads on serial killings and changes M.O. to do what others have done only "better?" Highly organized, and he wouldn't have just stopped.

  8. #23
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    Pasting Omori's post from the prior forum

    All were abducted or recovered on or the day after holidays: Stebbins vanished the day after Valentine's Day and was his body was recovered the day Aquarius ends. Robinson was abducted on the winter solstice and her body recovered the day after Christmas (a.k.a. Boxing day). Mihelich was abducted the day after the New Year and her body recovered on the day Aquarius commences. Timmy King was abducted the day after the Ides of March (the day that Caesar and Christ were said to have died) and his body was recovered the day after the vernal equinox. There is no reason to believe this is a coincidence since the murders betray a number of other patterns. The holidays, in fact, may have dictated why each victim was held for the length of time they were. All four victims' bodies were recovered within the month in which each vanished. None straddled two months.

    Robinson was abducted the latest into the month and kept for the least amount of time. Mihelich was abducted the earliest in the month and kept for the longest time while the two male victims were abducted in the middle of the month. Robinson vanished on December 22, Mihelich’s body was recovered on January 21. Stebbins vanished on February 15 and King disappeared on March 16. So the two female victims share a month-and-a-day relationship as do the two male victims.


    It’s too much to be coincidence. I said earlier that this angle may have dictated why the children were held the length of time they were. Or is it coincidence that Kristine Mihelich was abducted the day after New Year's and her body found on the commencement of Aquarius? Then another victim is found at the close of Aquarius. That’s a bit much to chalk up to coincidence.

    So I think we have to seriously entertain that the killer was an astrology nut. He was consulting the stars about when to kill, whom to kill, how to kill them and where to place the bodies. This would mean the killer was adept at casting horoscopes. Or was he? He could have been seeing an astrologer adept at casting horoscopes.

    What is striking is that just a short walk from where Mihelich vanished is the Mayflower Bookstore and the owner does indeed cast horoscopes and has many clients including some very famous ones. When I asked him how long his store was at that location, he said since 1985—long after the killing spree. But he also said he founded Mayflower in 1971 and that it was originally located on Woodward near 9 Mile (where the Om Café now sits) close to where Stebbins disappeared. There is no other bookstore in this area with the extensive catalog of books and astrology clients that Mayflower has—it’s kind of the 800 lb gorilla in the room. So, I wonder if the killer was a client of Mayflower? It is possible the owner may have cast this individual’s horoscope. It is possible the killer is still a customer or client of Mayflower.

    I cast no aspersions on Mayflower itself, it is a very fine establishment offering a catalog of books that can’t be found anywhere else in this area that I know of. Usually, one has to go to California or New York to find such a place. I have never spoken with the owner about OCCK. It’s not the kind of subject one wants to have brought up in one’s own business establishment with customers roaming around and what not. But he has been in business here for 40 years and knows all kinds of people. I would be very interested in getting his take on the killings. I don’t know if the cops ever questioned him because I don’t know if they ever noticed the astrological connections. I cast no aspersions on the owner. I’ve known him for many years and he’s a good guy. But I do wonder if among his clientele going back four decades if one of them might possibly be the one now known as the Babysitter. And could he still be a client?

    There seems to be a 3 and 1 pattern concerning certain aspects. For instance, three of the bodies were found in Oakland County but one was found in Wayne. Three bodies were found in pristine condition but one had been shot in the face. Three of the victims were kept less than a week while one was kept for 19 days. Of the months each victim was taken—December, January, February and March—three of them occur after the New Year and one before it.


    When I look at the 3 and 1 aspect, it seems to me to be more than a coincidence. I don’t know if the killer was consciously setting one victim off from the others, it could be something done subconsciously so I began searching through Jung, who has done so much work on the subconscious and I’ll quote verbatim what he wrote. Jung recounts various fairytales which he asserts carry a plethora of subconscious symbolism. This is from his book Archetypes and the Collection Unconscious:

    “Between the three and the four there exists the primary opposition of male and female, but whereas fourness is a symbol of wholeness, threeness is not. The latter, according to alchemy, denotes polarity, since one triad always presupposes another, just as high presupposes low, lightness darkness, good evil. In terms of energy, polarity means a potential, and wherever potential exists there is the possibility of a current, a flow of events, for the tension of opposites strives for balance….In psychological language we should say that when the unconscious wholeness becomes manifest, i.e. leaves the unconscious and crosses over into the sphere of consciousness, one of the four remain behind, held fast by the horror vacui of the unconscious. There thus arises a triad, which as we know—not from the fairytale but from the history of symbolism—constellates a corresponding triad in opposition to it—in other words, a conflict ensues. Here too we could ask with Socrates, ‘One, two, three—but, my dear Timaeus, of those who yesterday were banqueters and today are banquet-givers, where is the fourth?’ He has remained in the realm of the dark mother, caught by the wolfish greed of the unconscious, which is unwilling to let anything escape from its magic circle save at the cost of a sacrifice.”

    I did not ever read this before today and yet we can see the three and one explained psychologically. Three are set free and one remains behind with the “dark mother” which again nags at us with the idea of a female killer. Someone had brought up that the killer seemed to choose locales, streets and roads with nature themes: Oakland, Oakshire, Greenfield, Woodward, Maple, Big Beaver, Gill, Forest Drive and so on. I brought up the possibility that perhaps the killer fancies himself a predator in the wilderness and may be a hunting enthusiast. Here is what Jung writes regarding psychological symbolism:

    “The hunter or old magician and the witch correspond to the negative parental images in the magic world of the unconscious. The hunter first appears in the story as a black raven. He has stolen away the princess and holds her prisoner. She describes him as ‘the devil.’ But it is exceedingly odd that he himself is locked up in the one forbidden room of the castle and fixed to the wall with three nails, as though crucified. He is imprisoned, like all jailers, in his own prison, and bound like all who curse….The crucifixion evidently betokens a state of agonizing bondage and suspension, fit punishment for one foolhardy enough to venture like a Prometheus into the orbit of the opposing principle. This was what the raven, who is identical to the hunter, did when he ravished a precious soul from the upper world of light; and so, as a punishment, he is nailed to the wall in that upper world….In our fairytale, the peculiar instrument of the magic spell is the triad of nails. Who it was that made the raven captive is not told in the tale, but it sounds as if a spell had been laid upon him in the triune name.”

    I'm not going to comment on this angle any further. I don't want to tell anyone how to think on this. You may discard completely if you wish. But it's somewhat eerie, is it not?
    #138
    Old 03-07-2011, 12:12 AM
    Omori Omori is offline
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    The conclusion then is that the killer is not a pedophile. The killer took two boys and two girls to represent both unity and balance as well as perfect innocence. S/he then destroys this unity and balance by setting one off from the other three. Justice is represented by a scale or balance so by setting one off and upsetting the balance, justice or unity would never be realized. The killer will only allow it if the world makes the proper sacrifice—whatever that is.

    Another 3 and 1 pattern that cannot be denied once one notices it, is that starting in the winter of ’76, the killer took Jill Robison. After the New Year of that same winter, he took Kristine Mihelich. These abductions occurred in December and January. The killer was on a roll and so the next victim should have vanished by February but instead that month was skipped and Tim King vanished in March. Why was February skipped? Because Mark Stebbins had been abducted in February the year before. That month was already taken. Does this sound like a pedophile just trying to get his rocks off? The killer was very mindful of the months he was killing. As I mentioned, Kristine was taken earliest in the month and kept the longest and Jill was taken latest in the month and kept the shortest. What more proof do we need that the killer had an aversion to overlapping into another month? Would a pedophile care about something like that? No. This person was not a pedophile. This person was abducting children as some type of sacrifice. The sodomizing of the two boys may have been ritualistic or could have been done in hopes of making people think a pedophile had done the deed. For some reason, he couldn’t bring him/herself to molest the girls.

    Still not convinced? In astrology, there is there are what are known as decans. When a zodiacal constellation such as Libra or Virgo or Cancer rises, the priests of the temples would watch for certain non-zodiacal constellations or asterisms (a smaller grouping of stars within a larger constellation) to appear every 10 days—hence the term “decan.” So each zodiacal constellation is attended by three decan constellations that rise ten days apart.

    · Jill Robinson vanished on December 22, that’s the very day Capricorn commences and the first decan of Capricorn rises—Sagitta the arrow (not Sagittarius the archer). He is depicted as in the acting of drawing his bow and Jill was found shot in the face.
    · Kristine Mihelich vanished on January 2, that’s the very day the second decan of Capricorn rises—Aquila the eagle. Her body was recovered at the commencement of Aquarius but the first decan of Aquarius—Piscis Australis the Southern Fish—and the third decan of Capricorn—Delphinus the dolphin—are both visible.
    · Mark Stebbins’s body was recovered on February 19, which ended Aquarius but which is also listed as the commencement of Pisces and on that very day, the first decan of Pisces rises—an asterism called The Band which binds the two fish of Pisces together.
    · Tim King vanished on March 16, during the third decan of Pisces—Andromeda. Andromeda in myth was chained to rock to be sacrificed to a sea monster. That monster was Cetus the whale. Likewise the band that holds the two fish of Pisces was joined to Cetus (making a triad again).
    · The killer either saw him/herself as Cetus the monster who devours the sacrifice or as the one who offers the sacrifice to Cetus. The fish of Pisces are represented then as Mark and Tim and hence both were bound. Both were claimed by the killer in the form of sodomizing the boys with an object.
    · The symbolism is that fish represent the redeemed multitudes and the goat is traditionally the animal sacrificed for atonement of sins—what is known as the scapegoat. Capricorn is half-fish and half-goat which is shown collapsing and dying in the front goat half but full of vigor in the back fish half. It represents “the goat of the atonement slain for the redeemed.”


    http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/images/17sagitta.gif

    “This strange goat-fish, dying in its head, but living in its afterpart--falling as an eagle pierced and wounded by the arrow of death, but springing up from the dark waves with the matchless vigour and beauty of the dolphin--sinking under sin's condemnation, but rising again as sin's conqueror--developing new life out of death, and hearlding a new springtime out of December's long drear nights--was framed by no blind chance of man. The story which it tells is the old, old story on which hangs the only availing hope that ever came, or ever can come, to Adam's race. To what it signifies we are for ever shut up as the only saving faith. In that dying Seed of the woman we must see our sin-bearer and the atonement for our guilt, or die ourselves unpardoned and unsanctified. Through His death and bloodshedding we must find our life, or the true life, which alone is life, we never can have.” –Dr. Joseph Seiss, The Gospel in the Stars

    Then we look at the names of the victims: Mark named after Mars the god of war, Jill a feminine form of Julius or “son of Jove,” Tim or Timothy or “honoring God” and Kristine which is a form of “Christ.” Jill was the sacrificial goat to atone for the masses and redeem them. She is a child of god but must die and be reborn in order for this to be realized because she has been sullied in this life by an unjust war (Vietnam) represented by Mark. Kristine is Christ the son who is pierced with an arrow and dies for our sins just as Aquila is shown dying after being pierced and then rises as Delphinus the dolphin springing up from the raging sea or matter—this defiled, bloody world—as the risen Christ who conquers sin and redeems the masses. Tim represents Andromeda whose purity is offered to War in order to honor God. He is the sacrificial lamb, a purified form of the scapegoat represented by Jill and so his body is left on Gill(ian) Road in March—named after Mars, the God of War to whom he is offered to honor God and redeem the masses.

    Seen in this way, then, Allen may have been legit. The Babysitter may, in fact, have been someone who killed children in Vietnam and sought to redeem American society by offering four innocents to the war—a mission he saw as divine, as one written in the stars. Allen, in fact, means “rock.” Andromeda was chained to a rock when offered to Cetus as a sacrifice. Dr. Bruce Danto, who actually spoke with Allen over the phone, thought the man sounded somewhat Middle Eastern and hence Allen may have been Arabic or Persian. Strangely, in the 4th and 5th centuries, a large Iranian tribe emigrated to Europe called the Alans.

  9. #24
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    Goodness Sunshine777, I can't even begin to follow all that but you certainly made some good points. Have you given any input on the Zodiac killer? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that. This has been very interesting even if I don't understand it.
    Where's Logan Tucker?

  10. #25
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  11. #26
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    I saw this featured on the new program Dark Minds tonight and they didn't mention the cottage or animal hairs. The blonde human hair matched the dna of a person that the family of one victim thinks helped B., if he did it. They also believe that the helper may have eventually killed B. instead of it being a suicide. If he did the horrible child murders, money sure did talk in that case according to one of the families.

  12. #27
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    Glad I found this thread on here. I was really hoping that Ted Lamborgine would confess to the killings after being brought back to Michigan from Ohio. My police dept assisted Michigan State Police in their apprehension of Lamborgine and I was the dispatcher working when he was arrested. Even though he may not be the killer, at least he is paying for the sexual crimes he committed against so many children.

    Just as an aside, my detective said Lamborgine was one of the strangest persons he has ever interviewed/been involved with. His apartment was immaculate...I am not talking just clean, I am talking obsessive compulsive you could lick the floors clean...that idiosyncrasy made me suspect him even more due to the fact that the children were "cleaned" before being dumped.

  13. #28
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    Why did the killer take Stebbins in February of ’76 rather than ’77? One possible answer is that the coupling of those two years represents something of a rarity. The months of Gregorian calendar follow a rather complex pattern that enables us to assemble a perpetual calendar. The following link shows the calendars used in the 20th century. Notice that 1976 and 1977 used the calendars #11 and #6 respectively:

    http://vpcalendar.net/Correlations/20th_Century.html

    Only three such conjunctions of these two months occur in the 20th century—each of them 28 years apart. I notice also that this conjunction occurs only on leap years. Not all leap years use this conjunction, though. Generally only every seventh leap year. This makes us cognizant of the fact that Mark Stebbins was taken the final leap year of that decade which was also the last conjunction of the 11 and 6 months of the perpetual calendar for the 20th century.

    Leap years occur every four years--2012 is a leap year--and on that year, February has 29 days instead of the usual 28. This is because the solar year is approximately 365.25 days long and so every four years the calendar falls a day behind unless a day is added to the year. Hence an extra day is added to February. Was Mark Stebbins taken in February 1976 instead of 1977 because it was the rarest of leap months?

    Even if we concede that the killer did not stop killing with these four victims, we must still also concede that this person wanted these four set off from any other of his/her possible victims. They served a special purpose. Has LE failed to catch this individual because they have looked at the wrong type of predator all these years?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamrocker99 View Post
    Glad I found this thread on here. I was really hoping that Ted Lamborgine would confess to the killings after being brought back to Michigan from Ohio. My police dept assisted Michigan State Police in their apprehension of Lamborgine and I was the dispatcher working when he was arrested. Even though he may not be the killer, at least he is paying for the sexual crimes he committed against so many children.

    Just as an aside, my detective said Lamborgine was one of the strangest persons he has ever interviewed/been involved with. His apartment was immaculate...I am not talking just clean, I am talking obsessive compulsive you could lick the floors clean...that idiosyncrasy made me suspect him even more due to the fact that the children were "cleaned" before being dumped.
    Welcome Shamrocker!

    What a unique perspective you bring to this thread? Did your detective have a favorite suspect or lead??
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