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Thread: Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario, #2

  1. #101
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    Thanks for the links. But remember, you need to edit your post to use just initials. We can't use full names of the "uninvolved". Hit the alert key to ask a mod and they'll help you if it's too late to edit.

    Being that DC was obviously a good friend and built the Ancaster Pet Cemetery, I have a really hard time believing that Ms. Gleave did not want remembrances made to his work. The SPCA does fine work but it would seem more personal to leave money to a good friend who'd built a sanctuary of rest for her beloved animals. She certainly seemed to spend a good bit of time there. I wonder where the funds from the sale of the home, car and furnishings went? I would assume that the house was paid for, as Ms. Gleave had lived there for quite some time.

    We've never learned if there was a will...have we? I wonder who made these decisions? The executor of the estate, LV? Possibly LV and DC were not on friendly terms.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missizzy View Post
    ... We've never learned if there was a will...have we? I wonder who made these decisions? The executor of the estate, LV? Possibly LV and DC were not on friendly terms.
    <rsbm>

    I didn't think we'd heard about a will either, but in a Jan 4 article:

    from:
    http://www.thespec.com/news/crime/ar...icious-killing

    Hrab says an executor to her will has been found and will be making funeral arrangements.
    Does anyone recall when AG's house was sold? I seem to recall being surprised that the house sold so quickly. Properties with this type of past are typically a very difficult sell for realtors. Do we know if the property was listed on MLS? If it was on MLS, realtors would be required to advise a potential buyer of the murder in the home. If it wasn't on MLS and was a private sale, it would be interesting to know who bought the home, given the horrific event that happened there.

    The only reference to SPCA that I recall was in the notice of the Jan 5 memorial service ... requesting donations to the SPCA. I'm not sure that we heard that AG's will directed proceeds to the SPCA or otherwise. The house may have been sold well below market value, but the proceeds from the sale had to go to someone. Disposition of the proceeds may not have been specified in the will, but left up to the discretion of the executrix.

    ETA: Found it ... MissIzzy posted on Feb 9 that the house had already been sold:

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6112757&postcount=358"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario[/ame]


    FWIW, I know a realtor in Toronto who was showing a semi-mansion where a dentist had killed his entire family back in the 1970s(?). They were commenting on how long the house was on the market and how difficult it was to sell homes where crimes of this nature had occurred.
    Last edited by sillybilly; 07-11-2011 at 01:02 PM. Reason: ETA

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  5. #103
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    If I ever read that article, I've forgotten some of the details. A few things that jumped out at me were that Ms. Gleave practiced "tough love", that she wore "high high heels" (odd being that she later developed bad knees) and borrowed books from the library. For some reason, I have the hardest time picturing her in her hot cars with red lipstick, red nail polish and heels. She was also a girls' basketball coach. I'd think that heels wouldn't be part of the "picture" for a healthy and fit physics teacher and coach. It just doesn't jive with the woman she was at 73. I did notice that recipes came up again.

    I'll check and see if I can find the date of the sale. I didn't realize that in Canada, a murder had to be disclosed in the sale of a house. My husband and I have asked about things such as this before as we used to be in development and real estate but there are no such laws in Oregon. We once bought a home where an elderly man had been found dead. He'd been dead quite some time as he lived alone, we were told by neighbors. That explained the odor which was almost impossible to remove from the home. We checked with the agent and she checked with the seller and sure enough, it was true. But there is no law that we had to be told.

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  7. #104
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    Back on Feb. 10th, Lily posted that she'd spoken to a friend who said the house was sold and that LV was the executor. I also found this article from the same time:

    http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...rs-are-anxious

    It’s been six weeks Audrey Gleave’s murder and neighbours are anxious
    February 8, 2011

    "....In the last month, Gleave’s Indian Trail house has been sold in an estate sale. Neighbours say the lights are on in the home all the time now...."

    more at link


    This is an interesting article as neighbors are complaining that police are not asking questions and that their calls with tips are not being returned. It's almost incomprehensible to me that the home sold only weeks after the murder. There's no way on earth that could be pulled off in the states. Is that common in Canada for things to move so swiftly after a death?

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  9. #105
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    In sillybilly's link above, there's mention that Ms. Gleave had not spoken to her former husband since 1976. I wonder who provided that information?

    Can someone local clear something up for me, please. Was the Gleave home in Ancaster, Lyndon or Hamilton? The address comes up as Hamilton on Google Maps but she's referred to as an "Ancaster woman".
    Last edited by Missizzy; 07-12-2011 at 11:26 PM.

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  11. #106
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    While just checking Audrey Gleave's remembrance page on FB, I realized that there are three other women by that name. One woman looks to be of similar age. This is awful to say, but you don't suppose that the murder could have been one of mistaken identity?

    It's a very unique name.

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  13. #107
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    Lightbulb

    Quoted from Missizzy:

    For some reason, I have the hardest time picturing her in her hot cars with red lipstick, red nail polish and heels. She was also a girls' basketball coach. I'd think that heels wouldn't be part of the "picture" for a healthy and fit physics teacher and coach. It just doesn't jive with the woman she was at 73. I did notice that recipes came up again.

    To be fair, we all change with age. Remember, AG also taught Physics so she wouldn't be in her track sweats in a classroom. And why not wear high heels, lipstick and nail polish at her younger age, whilst teaching?

    As for the Camaro - why not? Heck, I've been driving Corvettes since I was very young and I still drive a 'Vette today. It's been my 'one and only car' type. Perhaps AG was the same with her Camaros.

    ETA: *I* don't find AG's name to be unique at all. Just my thoughts on some of the posts above.....
    Last edited by No_Stone_Unturned; 07-13-2011 at 06:31 AM. Reason: correcting 'Physics'
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  15. #108
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    Lyndon-Brantford-Hamilton-Ancaster

    the address confusion stems from (I think) the fact that I believe her actual address probably was Lyndon, or a Rural Route
    Brantford has expanded recently out into that area as has Hamilton and Ancaster so all these towns have expanded and Lyndon is really just a sort of cross roads with very little there, hardly a village even.

    I was actually a little surprised when I learned that the house sold so quickly. I guess if your not the least bit squeemish the houses history wouldn't bother you. I can understand why someone would want the property, it has two ponds and really is in a wonderful rural setting. Right off the 403 so you could be in Brantford, Hamilton or even commute to Toronto.
    ...

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  17. #109
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    Lynd e n

    funny how sometimes making a typo pays off
    Was trying to find the new owner's name using 411, and couldn't even find any neighbour's till by mistake I spelt Lynden, which turned out to be the correct spelling, LOL.

    Unfortunately, couldn't find Audrey's house, only the neighbours, including the F's. Apparently the Postal Code for the area is Lynden, ON L0R 1T0

    Audrey Gleave, 73, was found by a friend in her home at 3401 Indian Trail Thursday ... Her Indian Trail home is just outside the village of Lynden, in between Lynden Road and Misener Road and close to the Brant-Ancaster Townline.
    http://www.thespec.com/news/crime/ar...vicious-attack
    My posts are merely my humble opinion. Unless you are quoting within Websleuths Forums, you do not have my permission to copy nor use any post made by me for anything.
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  19. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missizzy View Post
    ... I'll check and see if I can find the date of the sale. I didn't realize that in Canada, a murder had to be disclosed in the sale of a house. My husband and I have asked about things such as this before as we used to be in development and real estate but there are no such laws in Oregon. We once bought a home where an elderly man had been found dead. He'd been dead quite some time as he lived alone, we were told by neighbors. That explained the odor which was almost impossible to remove from the home. We checked with the agent and she checked with the seller and sure enough, it was true. But there is no law that we had to be told.
    Ya know what, I'll double-check on that Missizzy. It is definitely true in BC, because a BC realtor friend just told me that very adamantly a few months ago. (Believe it or not, we were discussing "orbs" in photographs, and NO I was not wearing my foil hat ).

    Will try to get in touch with my realtor friend on Ontario to verify. As the Real Estate Boards are provincial, there may be a difference, but generally they have all pretty much the same legal and ethical requirements.

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  21. #111
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    http://www.canadarealty.org/dealing-...estate-stigma/
    "Stigma can be measured in many ways, but the most difficult is by direct comparison. For example, say that you bought a house and found out from a neighbour that it had been the scene of a horrific murder. Your buyers are angry. They want to sue the seller and the listing and selling agents.

    In most jurisdictions, you were denied the right to a material fact. In some places like California, disclosure of a murder must be reported for three years. In Canada, only Quebec has a murder disclosure law. How does one measure the loss, if any? In a textbook situation, we would find various murder sites, compare their selling prices to similar and non-impacted houses in their area and then with enough data estimate a percentage loss to your house. The problem? Most murder sites are not readily disclosed and not all murders may have received excess media attention, which does negatively impact value.

    The other problem is one of time. Did the murder happen last year or 10 years ago? Heck, in a small town, a 50-year-old murder still is well remembered."

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  23. #112
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    Has anyone ever seen photos from Ms. Gleave when she was a young and snappily dressed teacher? I've seen a few earlier photos but she was dressed conservatively. I'm not doubting that she liked a little flash nor judging that choice. I highly admire individualism. I dress (when I was mobile) in full vintage regalia every day of my life (as I collected and sold vintage clothing). It's an art form. I always drove unique vehicles. But I don't think those facts would surprise anyone who's every met me or read anything about me. I don't "run with the pack".

    There's just so many dichotomies about this woman. I find it fascinating and perplexing at the same time. I sure wish her former husband would make some sort of statement now that the case has been reopened. Have we heard from PK, LV or the vet since things have moved back to square one?

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  25. #113
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    next week I have to be out in that general area and will see if there is a name on the mail box.
    Sorry about the spelling of LyndEn!
    ...

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  27. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missizzy View Post
    In sillybilly's link above, there's mention that Ms. Gleave had not spoken to her former husband since 1976. I wonder who provided that information?

    Can someone local clear something up for me, please. Was the Gleave home in Ancaster, Lyndon or Hamilton? The address comes up as Hamilton on Google Maps but she's referred to as an "Ancaster woman".
    It is confusing because her house is in the country... the closest little village is Lynden... the closest 'town' would be Ancaster... the closest city would actually be Brantford... but in terms of municipal boundaries, it is located within the boundaries of the City of Hamilton.

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  29. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by dotr View Post
    http://www.canadarealty.org/dealing-...estate-stigma/
    "Stigma can be measured in many ways, but the most difficult is by direct comparison. For example, say that you bought a house and found out from a neighbour that it had been the scene of a horrific murder. Your buyers are angry. They want to sue the seller and the listing and selling agents.

    In most jurisdictions, you were denied the right to a material fact. In some places like California, disclosure of a murder must be reported for three years. In Canada, only Quebec has a murder disclosure law. How does one measure the loss, if any? In a textbook situation, we would find various murder sites, compare their selling prices to similar and non-impacted houses in their area and then with enough data estimate a percentage loss to your house. The problem? Most murder sites are not readily disclosed and not all murders may have received excess media attention, which does negatively impact value.

    The other problem is one of time. Did the murder happen last year or 10 years ago? Heck, in a small town, a 50-year-old murder still is well remembered."
    Thanks dotr !! Earlier in the article, he states:

    In most provinces and states, Realtors must disclose but some of the laws are vague and the buyer is not always protected
    Seems a murder or other such "stigma" would fall under the laws of Disclosure, but the individual stigma is open to interpretation by the listing agent as to whether it is required to be disclosed.

    The article linked to the Ghost of Nyack story where the Supreme Court of New York ruled that

    because a routine home inspection would never uncover it, sellers must disclose that a house is haunted to potential buyers.

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  31. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missizzy View Post
    In sillybilly's link above, there's mention that Ms. Gleave had not spoken to her former husband since 1976. I wonder who provided that information?

    Can someone local clear something up for me, please. Was the Gleave home in Ancaster, Lyndon or Hamilton? The address comes up as Hamilton on Google Maps but she's referred to as an "Ancaster woman".
    http://www.brantfordexpositor.com/Ar...aspx?e=2915258
    "Allan was a chemical engineering student when he met Audrey at McMaster University, where she studied physics. They got married in 1969, on the day she graduated from teachers’ college, and were divorced about eight years afterward.

    Allan, who moved to Sturgeon Falls, Ont., in 1974, said he hadn’t spoken to his ex-wife since 1976."

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  33. #117
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    I'm still scratching my head as to how AG's estate was able to be dealt with so quickly.

    Am hazarding a guess that AG's estate (real property and personal property combined) was worth at least $500,000. Because AG left a LWT, an executor would typically apply for probate (now called a Certificate of Appointment of Estate Trustee). Once that certificate is issued, it is filed with the Superior Court which, in my experience, can take weeks or months. Maybe in this case, somebody pulled strings to get it through more quickly.

    Basically, probate is to ensure the validity of the Will and that it is in fact THE last LWT of the deceased, and to ensure that Estate Administration Taxes are paid on the value of the estate.

    There IS a way to avoid probate in dealing with real estate:

    http://www.thestar.com/article/248950

    I would be surprised however if AG's total estate consisted solely of the real estate (i.e. the physical property). Given her age and background, I would expect she would have had personal property and assets in other forms (i.e. antiques, bank accounts, investments, etc.)

    Here's a short, simple explanation by a very reputable law firm in Ontario:

    http://www.lerners.ca/content/docume...20a%20will.pdf

    MOO

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  35. #118
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    Lightbulb

    Quoted from dotr:

    "Allan was a chemical engineering student when he met Audrey at McMaster University, where she studied physics. They got married in 1969, on the day she graduated from teachers’ college, and were divorced about eight years afterward.

    Allan, who moved to Sturgeon Falls, Ont., in 1974, said he hadn’t spoken to his ex-wife since 1976."


    Well, does anyone know if he came to her funeral/memorial? Was he able to come to pay his final respects? Or were they so estranged that it didn't matter to him?

    I'm pondering this..........
    Seeking justice for Audrey Gleave
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  37. #119
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    on probate

    From the link SB posted do I read correctly that the home may have been sold as an "estate" sale,(that was my understanding) and the proceeds applied to the estate and probate applied? Therefore, the "estate" may not actually be settled yet.
    It would seem to me that the ownership of the home wouldn't be under any question.
    (under her breath she says AG & LV were members of the Country Club, I'm sure they are/were well connected with lawyers and judges nothing neredowell implied)
    ...

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  39. #120
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    Lightbulb

    I just Googled AG's house and I found that it was sold by the executrice, LV. LV had been living in AG's house after the killing whilst waiting for the house to be sold. And - it was sold.
    Seeking justice for Audrey Gleave
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    *ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN OPINIONS UNLESS I GIVE A LINK OR REFER TO OTHERS*
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    “The inspiration you seek is already inside you. Be silent and listen." ~ Rumi

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  41. #121
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    I knew that LV had been sorting through Ms. Gleave's possessions but living there? Really? Not many people could pull that off being that a friend had just been brutally murdered in the home and there was early uncertainty (especially in the first few weeks) about whether they had the right man.

    That fact strikes me as extremely unusual.

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  43. #122
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    Maybe the house needed alot of prep before the sale and it was easier to stay there than to keep driving back and forth. Very odd to me that she would stay there but wasn't the alleged perp in jail at the time and therefore it would be safe to stay there because he couldnt come back?

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  45. #123
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    http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local.../?hub=CP24Home
    Well, this is different......just thought I should post .. wondering if LE are certain that the perp(s) are male.
    Fri Jul. 15 2011 5:35:57 PM | The Canadian Press

    Hamilton woman charged with sexual assault

    HAMILTON — Hamilton police have taken the unusual step of issuing a public warning after charging a woman with sexual assault.

    They allege a woman has been having sexual encounters without first telling her partners about her medical condition, as is required
    Last edited by dotr; 07-16-2011 at 12:43 AM.

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  47. #124
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    Lightbulb

    That (post above ^^^^) is interesting! And now I recall reading something along the lines of: ' woman brutally attacked, sexually assaulted and left to die' in the AG case. Was AG not dead when the killer fled the scene?

    I vividly recall the "left to die" part.
    Seeking justice for Audrey Gleave
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  49. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by No_Stone_Unturned View Post
    That (post above ^^^^) is interesting! And now I recall reading something along the lines of: ' woman brutally attacked, sexually assaulted and left to die' in the AG case. Was AG not dead when the killer fled the scene?

    I vividly recall the "left to die" part.
    Audrey Gleave, 73 and alone, was sexually assaulted, stabbed and left for dead in her Ancaster home - but the details are more concerning yet.

    ..... and further down:

    "The friend found Audrey in the house, obviously dead, obviously the victim of a very horrific, vicious assault," Hrab said.
    http://www.torontosun.com/news/canad.../16718126.html
    Could only find that quote in one article .... odd that they mention "obviously dead".
    My posts are merely my humble opinion. Unless you are quoting within Websleuths Forums, you do not have my permission to copy nor use any post made by me for anything.
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