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  1. #1

    2011.03.24 - Air Sample Expert Testimony

    Discuss the air sample testimony here.

    Stay On Topic.

    http://www.wftv.com/video/27310819/index.html

  2. #2
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    Well, I for one, happen to think he presented himself very well. Articulate and well educated, with an abundance of life experience(which almost always puts book smarts to shame...JMO)

    He did grow frustrated at the apparent lack of experience of "Kelvin" Baez and the redundance of the questions. He stood by his knowledge base and was not tricked into a manipulated answer.
    -Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    -Senatus Populus Que Romanus

    -Why is it, if you help someone get away with a crime before they are arrested you are an accomplice...but if you help them get away with a crime after they are arrested you are a defense attorney?

  3. #3
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    Interesting that he isn't relying on his whole secret database for his opinions. The testimony is more likely to come into evidence because of that. I still have some reservations about how developed the science is, but it might come in.

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94

  4. #4
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    If this does come in (and IMO it should), will that not be one more notch on JA's belt?

    First DNA, then air sampling.

    I think the science, and the good Doctor's background, were very clearly presented by JA during direct examination. Dr. Vass's experience and methods were (during that part of the hearing) very clearly laid out.

    I would not want to be in HHJP's shoes right now though--deciding whether or not to allow this in. But as a lay person, Dr. Vass's testimony was enough to convince me today. It's time to let this type of science into trials.
    You can hold back from the suffering of the world. You have free permission to do so and it is in accordance with your nature.
    But perhaps this very holding back is the one suffering you could have avoided.
    Franz Kafka

    Be not simply good. Be good for something.
    HDT

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZlawyer View Post
    Interesting that he isn't relying on his whole secret database for his opinions. The testimony is more likely to come into evidence because of that. I still have some reservations about how developed the science is, but it might come in.
    The fact that he is limiting his actual determination or conclusions to the presence of the 30 compounds stated in the peer reviewed papers, and not the full database, and that those compounds seem to be a fairly similar list with the greek scientists working in a similar field did seem to make it all a little more solid.

    I still think whether the new science comes in or is disallowed is wholly up to HHJP and his own private research at this point. The state presented some good strong things to support it, and the defense really put forth some incredibly pointless and outright lousy, I hesitate to even call them arguments, to challenge it. (I mean really what were JB's arguments today? The only ones that I came close to following were the ones that seemed to have nothing to do with Frye or the science, such as the profit motive. He kept calling the witness into question, but never really the actual science).

  6. #6
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    I am so stinkin mad that JB tried to go for the pizza thing...And I am almost mad on KC's behalf-is he completely oblivious to the backlash CA got on that? And how people immediately wiped that theory out?
    When he realizes that is doomed for the potty, he rolls into the other food and/or packages in the trash bag.
    I know it had nothing to do with the Frye aspect, but I really really wanted to see that one play out.
    His client is sitting there fully aware that her atty is going to get so busted if he tries that-If she insists on doodling, she should doodle a to JB for his shoddy work.

  7. #7
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    I admit I was fantasizing during Dr. V's testimony...okay, he was cute, but not THAT cute...no, no, no...I was fantasizing that Valhall could take the stand to give her extremely accurate lay version and wrap up the Frye question in a matter of minutes.
    Between the state, the defense, and the witness, the things that Val seems to wrap up so neatly with a bow tend to get dragged out and the "ah-hahs" and "gotchas" don't seem to leap out quite so well.

  8. #8
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    I was very impressed with Dr. Vass today!!! His answers made sense to the layperson, like myself, and he was very eloquent describing each detail. JA let Dr. Vass finish his answer before asking another question. Jose did not.

    If JB had let Dr. Vass answer the question, without confusing him further, Dr. Vass would've "schooled" JB about the difference between the Manson ranch and the tests done on ICA's car.
    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere!" MLK, Jr.

  9. #9
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    Honestly, I was expecting this old guy with zero personality. Nevertheless, I was pleasantly surprised. He is VERY likeable, knowlegable and SMART. My favorite part is when he said to JB "pretty cool isn't it?" in regards to him matching someone else doing similar work with a different set of circumstances. JB was speechless. I loved it. I think he is a stellar witness.

    A Mother's love is a lifelong commitment
    to selflessness
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by faefrost View Post
    The fact that he is limiting his actual determination or conclusions to the presence of the 30 compounds stated in the peer reviewed papers, and not the full database, and that those compounds seem to be a fairly similar list with the greek scientists working in a similar field did seem to make it all a little more solid.

    I still think whether the new science comes in or is disallowed is wholly up to HHJP and his own private research at this point. The state presented some good strong things to support it, and the defense really put forth some incredibly pointless and outright lousy, I hesitate to even call them arguments, to challenge it. (I mean really what were JB's arguments today? The only ones that I came close to following were the ones that seemed to have nothing to do with Frye or the science, such as the profit motive. He kept calling the witness into question, but never really the actual science).
    One of Baez's main arguments was as follows:

    Baez:Isn't it true that you are not a bio-chemist? Then are you aware that your WIKI refers to you as one?

    JA: OBJECTION

    Baez: Okay, well, Isn't it true that your Sniffer Machine will make you a pretty penny, when ALL of the police departments across the nation order it because of this testimony at this trial?
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn


  11. #11
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    I think this is a very interesting topic. Dr. Vass's testimony today was more riveting than all of the drama. I don't doubt there are kinks to work out with what he is attempting to do. But in 1994, DNA was so new to people, that if the OJ trial happened today (yes, there would be other issues to address, like prosecutorial error, LE error) the DNA would have clinched it.

    The Mason Ranch body stuff is worrisome a little. It is a new technique. But the way I look at it as this, he is a pioneer. It does him no good to testify for the SA's office if his theory is kooky or bunk or he can be discredited by a jury or worse yet looked upon in a bad light in a peer review/accepted peers in his field. He has nothing to gain by joining this VAST conspiracy against ICA...if he can be taken down in open court, and made foolish in front of the very people who might later review his work and endorse it.

    The truth is what he said was compelling. No idea whether it will come in or not...but I gotta say, my favorite part is when he analogized the smell of a decomposed person to a skunk in that it is a smell you never forget. I totally dug that because it would speak to a potential jury. Think about it. Most of us have likely never smelled a dead body, but he has and remembered the smell. And this falls along with the testimony of other witnesses who have said the same.

    The same can also be said for a skunk. Most of us have smelled a skunk. We know that smell and could not and would not confuse it with any other smell. LittleBitty herself was actually skunked by a live skunk whilest walking her dogs...but I digress..

    What I cannot fathom is why the SA's office didn't go more into the trash deal...because has not (if recent true crime memory serves) LE used not only cadeavor dogs but other methods to locate dead bodies in garbage dumps...I mean huge garbage dumps...I can name at least three cases of recent memory off of the top of my head...

    I know the dogs don't have anything to do with this topic...but still...how do they go through a miles of a garbage dump and find a dead body? Clearly there is more to it than that and I think some of Vass's work is alluding to it.
    Last edited by Bittiness39; 03-25-2011 at 12:06 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MD MOMMY View Post
    Honestly, I was expecting this old guy with zero personality. Nevertheless, I was pleasantly surprised. He is VERY likeable, knowlegable and SMART. My favorite part is when he said to JB "pretty cool isn't it?" in regards to him matching someone else doing similar work with a different set of circumstances. JB was speechless. I loved it. I think he is a stellar witness.

    He is a scientist's scientist.

    At one point, Dr. V. tried to explain something to JB, and JB interrupted and told him to wait for a question-I don't think Dr. V was trying to be sassy at that moment, I think he just got so caught up in talking science, he really wanted a dialogue with JB.

    Sorry, Dr. Vass-it's like talking to a rock.

  13. #13
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    Have been re-watching little bits and pieces of today... JJ, you are IMO so right--this guy just wants to help other people understand what he is fired up about! He'd be a great teacher, and while I know this was a Frye hearing, if Dr. Vass gets called back to the stand during the trial, he will knock it out of the park.

    (And I do think this science will survive the Frye test, and I do think JA will have another notch on his belt after all this. And I also think JA needs to take a cue from LDB and not bounce out of his seat at every opportunity. Though I respect his passion.)

    As ever,
    You can hold back from the suffering of the world. You have free permission to do so and it is in accordance with your nature.
    But perhaps this very holding back is the one suffering you could have avoided.
    Franz Kafka

    Be not simply good. Be good for something.
    HDT

  14. #14
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    Completely impressed with Dr. Vass and his expertise. I don't see his procedures, methods, or devices that "new fangled". JB came across silly and skeptic. JB accused and goaded, but Dr. Vass didn't budge or buckle.

    Another thing, Dr. Vass wasn't vague in his answers. He didn't make blanket statements. He took the time to define the exact type of conditions for situations of plume release, etc.,

    Quick, JB try to wave around some imaginary pizza.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleBitty35 View Post
    I think this is a very interesting topic. Dr. Vass's testimony today was more riveting than all of the drama. I don't doubt there are kinks to work out with what he is attempting to do. But in 1994, DNA was so new to people, that if the OJ trial happened today (yes, there would be other issues to address, like prosecutorial error, LE error) the DNA would have clinched it.

    The Mason Ranch body stuff is worrisome a little. It is a new technique. But the way I look at it as this, he is a pioneer. It does him no good to testify for the SA's office if his theory is kooky or bunk or he can be discredited by a jury or worse yet looked upon in a bad light in a peer review/accepted peers in his field. He has nothing to gain by joining this VAST conspiracy against ICA...if he can be taken down in open court, and made foolish in front of the very people who might later review his work and endorse it.

    The truth is what he said was compelling. No idea whether it will come in or not...but I gotta say, my favorite part is when he analogized the smell of a decomposed person to a skunk in that it is a smell you never forget. I totally dug that because it would speak to a potential jury. Think about it. Most of us have likely never smelled a dead body, but he has and remembered the smell. And this falls along with the testimony of other witnesses who have said the same.

    The same can also be said for a skunk. Most of us have smelled a skunk. We know that smell and could not and would not confuse it with any other smell. LittleBitty herself was actually skunked by a live skunk whilest walking her dogs...but I digress..

    What I cannot fathom is why the SA's office didn't go more into the trash deal...because has not (if recent true crime memory serves) LE used not only cadeavor dogs but other methods to locate dead bodies in garbage dumps...I mean huge garbage dumps...I can name at least three cases of recent memory off of the top of my head...

    I know the dogs don't have anything to do with this topic...but still...how do they go through a miles of a garbage dump and find a dead body? Clearly there is more to it than that and I think some of Vass's work is alluding to it.
    I have to wonder, though, if since the time of Cali v. Simpson, our culture has not changed with respect to what we think we are capable of.

    When we were younger, so many technological advances were so foreign to us, we usually decided that hi-tech was somthing for "the future."

    Kids these days, and adults alike, don't really think that way anymore-Ask a kid about flying cars, robot schoolmates, traveling to Jupiter or smelevision, and today's kids are likely to tell you that they think it can happen. Since the tech revolution of the 90's, we rarely say never to advances anymore.

    With that same optimism, I think this jury will be a bit different than OJ's-I don't think they will be so quick to doubt the science.

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