2011.03.24 - Air Sample Expert Testimony

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Well, I for one, happen to think he presented himself very well. Articulate and well educated, with an abundance of life experience(which almost always puts book smarts to shame...JMO)

He did grow frustrated at the apparent lack of experience of "Kelvin" Baez and the redundance of the questions. He stood by his knowledge base and was not tricked into a manipulated answer.
 
Interesting that he isn't relying on his whole secret database for his opinions. The testimony is more likely to come into evidence because of that. I still have some reservations about how developed the science is, but it might come in.
 
If this does come in (and IMO it should), will that not be one more notch on JA's belt?

First DNA, then air sampling.

I think the science, and the good Doctor's background, were very clearly presented by JA during direct examination. Dr. Vass's experience and methods were (during that part of the hearing) very clearly laid out.

I would not want to be in HHJP's shoes right now though--deciding whether or not to allow this in. But as a lay person, Dr. Vass's testimony was enough to convince me today. It's time to let this type of science into trials.
 
AZlawyer said:
Interesting that he isn't relying on his whole secret database for his opinions. The testimony is more likely to come into evidence because of that. I still have some reservations about how developed the science is, but it might come in.
Click to expand...

The fact that he is limiting his actual determination or conclusions to the presence of the 30 compounds stated in the peer reviewed papers, and not the full database, and that those compounds seem to be a fairly similar list with the greek scientists working in a similar field did seem to make it all a little more solid.

I still think whether the new science comes in or is disallowed is wholly up to HHJP and his own private research at this point. The state presented some good strong things to support it, and the defense really put forth some incredibly pointless and outright lousy, I hesitate to even call them arguments, to challenge it. (I mean really what were JB's arguments today? The only ones that I came close to following were the ones that seemed to have nothing to do with Frye or the science, such as the profit motive. He kept calling the witness into question, but never really the actual science).
 
I am so stinkin mad that JB tried to go for the pizza thing...And I am almost mad on KC's behalf-is he completely oblivious to the backlash CA got on that? And how people immediately wiped that theory out?
When he realizes that is doomed for the potty, he rolls into the other food and/or packages in the trash bag.
I know it had nothing to do with the Frye aspect, but I really really wanted to see that one play out.
His client is sitting there fully aware that her atty is going to get so busted if he tries that-If she insists on doodling, she should doodle a :furious: to JB for his shoddy work.
 
I admit I was fantasizing during Dr. V's testimony...okay, he was cute, but not THAT cute...no, no, no...I was fantasizing that Valhall could take the stand to give her extremely accurate lay version and wrap up the Frye question in a matter of minutes.
Between the state, the defense, and the witness, the things that Val seems to wrap up so neatly with a bow tend to get dragged out and the "ah-hahs" and "gotchas" don't seem to leap out quite so well.
 
I was very impressed with Dr. Vass today!!! His answers made sense to the layperson, like myself, and he was very eloquent describing each detail. JA let Dr. Vass finish his answer before asking another question. Jose did not.

If JB had let Dr. Vass answer the question, without confusing him further, Dr. Vass would've "schooled" JB about the difference between the Manson ranch and the tests done on ICA's car. :banghead:
 
Honestly, I was expecting this old guy with zero personality. Nevertheless, I was pleasantly surprised. He is VERY likeable, knowlegable and SMART. My favorite part is when he said to JB "pretty cool isn't it?" in regards to him matching someone else doing similar work with a different set of circumstances. JB was speechless. I loved it. I think he is a stellar witness.

:rocker:
 
faefrost said:
The fact that he is limiting his actual determination or conclusions to the presence of the 30 compounds stated in the peer reviewed papers, and not the full database, and that those compounds seem to be a fairly similar list with the greek scientists working in a similar field did seem to make it all a little more solid.

I still think whether the new science comes in or is disallowed is wholly up to HHJP and his own private research at this point. The state presented some good strong things to support it, and the defense really put forth some incredibly pointless and outright lousy, I hesitate to even call them arguments, to challenge it. (I mean really what were JB's arguments today? The only ones that I came close to following were the ones that seemed to have nothing to do with Frye or the science, such as the profit motive. He kept calling the witness into question, but never really the actual science).
Click to expand...

One of Baez's main arguments was as follows:

Baez:Isn't it true that you are not a bio-chemist? Then are you aware that your WIKI refers to you as one?

JA: OBJECTION

Baez: Okay, well, Isn't it true that your Sniffer Machine will make you a pretty penny, when ALL of the police departments across the nation order it because of this testimony at this trial?
 
I think this is a very interesting topic. Dr. Vass's testimony today was more riveting than all of the drama. I don't doubt there are kinks to work out with what he is attempting to do. But in 1994, DNA was so new to people, that if the OJ trial happened today (yes, there would be other issues to address, like prosecutorial error, LE error) the DNA would have clinched it.

The Mason Ranch body stuff is worrisome a little. It is a new technique. But the way I look at it as this, he is a pioneer. It does him no good to testify for the SA's office if his theory is kooky or bunk or he can be discredited by a jury or worse yet looked upon in a bad light in a peer review/accepted peers in his field. He has nothing to gain by joining this VAST conspiracy against ICA...if he can be taken down in open court, and made foolish in front of the very people who might later review his work and endorse it.

The truth is what he said was compelling. No idea whether it will come in or not...but I gotta say, my favorite part is when he analogized the smell of a decomposed person to a skunk in that it is a smell you never forget. I totally dug that because it would speak to a potential jury. Think about it. Most of us have likely never smelled a dead body, but he has and remembered the smell. And this falls along with the testimony of other witnesses who have said the same.

The same can also be said for a skunk. Most of us have smelled a skunk. We know that smell and could not and would not confuse it with any other smell. LittleBitty herself was actually skunked by a live skunk whilest walking her dogs...but I digress..

What I cannot fathom is why the SA's office didn't go more into the trash deal...because has not (if recent true crime memory serves) LE used not only cadeavor dogs but other methods to locate dead bodies in garbage dumps...I mean huge garbage dumps...I can name at least three cases of recent memory off of the top of my head...

I know the dogs don't have anything to do with this topic...but still...how do they go through a miles of a garbage dump and find a dead body? Clearly there is more to it than that and I think some of Vass's work is alluding to it.
 
MD MOMMY said:
Honestly, I was expecting this old guy with zero personality. Nevertheless, I was pleasantly surprised. He is VERY likeable, knowlegable and SMART. My favorite part is when he said to JB "pretty cool isn't it?" in regards to him matching someone else doing similar work with a different set of circumstances. JB was speechless. I loved it. I think he is a stellar witness.

:rocker:
Click to expand...

He is a scientist's scientist.

At one point, Dr. V. tried to explain something to JB, and JB interrupted and told him to wait for a question-I don't think Dr. V was trying to be sassy at that moment, I think he just got so caught up in talking science, he really wanted a dialogue with JB.

Sorry, Dr. Vass-it's like talking to a rock.
 
Have been re-watching little bits and pieces of today... JJ, you are IMO so right--this guy just wants to help other people understand what he is fired up about! He'd be a great teacher, and while I know this was a Frye hearing, if Dr. Vass gets called back to the stand during the trial, he will knock it out of the park.

(And I do think this science will survive the Frye test, and I do think JA will have another notch on his belt after all this. And I also think JA needs to take a cue from LDB and not bounce out of his seat at every opportunity. Though I respect his passion.)

As ever, :cow:
 
Completely impressed with Dr. Vass and his expertise. I don't see his procedures, methods, or devices that "new fangled". JB came across silly and skeptic. JB accused and goaded, but Dr. Vass didn't budge or buckle.

Another thing, Dr. Vass wasn't vague in his answers. He didn't make blanket statements. He took the time to define the exact type of conditions for situations of plume release, etc.,

Quick, JB try to wave around some imaginary pizza.
 
LittleBitty35 said:
I think this is a very interesting topic. Dr. Vass's testimony today was more riveting than all of the drama. I don't doubt there are kinks to work out with what he is attempting to do. But in 1994, DNA was so new to people, that if the OJ trial happened today (yes, there would be other issues to address, like prosecutorial error, LE error) the DNA would have clinched it.

The Mason Ranch body stuff is worrisome a little. It is a new technique. But the way I look at it as this, he is a pioneer. It does him no good to testify for the SA's office if his theory is kooky or bunk or he can be discredited by a jury or worse yet looked upon in a bad light in a peer review/accepted peers in his field. He has nothing to gain by joining this VAST conspiracy against ICA...if he can be taken down in open court, and made foolish in front of the very people who might later review his work and endorse it.

The truth is what he said was compelling. No idea whether it will come in or not...but I gotta say, my favorite part is when he analogized the smell of a decomposed person to a skunk in that it is a smell you never forget. I totally dug that because it would speak to a potential jury. Think about it. Most of us have likely never smelled a dead body, but he has and remembered the smell. And this falls along with the testimony of other witnesses who have said the same.

The same can also be said for a skunk. Most of us have smelled a skunk. We know that smell and could not and would not confuse it with any other smell. LittleBitty herself was actually skunked by a live skunk whilest walking her dogs...but I digress..

What I cannot fathom is why the SA's office didn't go more into the trash deal...because has not (if recent true crime memory serves) LE used not only cadeavor dogs but other methods to locate dead bodies in garbage dumps...I mean huge garbage dumps...I can name at least three cases of recent memory off of the top of my head...

I know the dogs don't have anything to do with this topic...but still...how do they go through a miles of a garbage dump and find a dead body? Clearly there is more to it than that and I think some of Vass's work is alluding to it.
Click to expand...

I have to wonder, though, if since the time of Cali v. Simpson, our culture has not changed with respect to what we think we are capable of.

When we were younger, so many technological advances were so foreign to us, we usually decided that hi-tech was somthing for "the future."

Kids these days, and adults alike, don't really think that way anymore-Ask a kid about flying cars, robot schoolmates, traveling to Jupiter or smelevision, and today's kids are likely to tell you that they think it can happen. Since the tech revolution of the 90's, we rarely say never to advances anymore.

With that same optimism, I think this jury will be a bit different than OJ's-I don't think they will be so quick to doubt the science.
 
Curious Me said:
Completely impressed with Dr. Vass and his expertise. I don't see his procedures, methods, or devices that "new fangled". JB came across silly and skeptic. JB accused and goaded, but Dr. Vass didn't budge or buckle.

Another thing, Dr. Vass wasn't vague in his answers. He didn't make blanket statements. He took the time to define the exact type of conditions for situations of plume release, etc.,

Quick, JB try to wave around some imaginary pizza.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

As to the trash thing, JB just muddied that up, don't know if it was purposefully or if he really thought he had a point-

My take of Dr. Vass's testimony is that, if you have the option to remove the variable of trash for testing purposes, you remove it beforehand.

If you don't have that option, you consider that variable in your hypothesis/testing and measure it's effects. You note its effects by itself and its effects with decomp. You get an outcome-You eliminate the trash from that outcome, and now you have a measurement for the decomp.

Is that what Dr. Vass was getting at?
 
Dr. Vass' testimony has got me thinking about the chloroform found in the bottle with the syringe where Caylee's body was found. He says that the amounts of chloroform detected in the air samples of the trunk were 10,000 times more than a decomposing body... which sounds like a HUGE amount of chloroform (I could be wrong about that).

With that said... what if Casey injected Caylee with the chloroform? When the body started to decompose could the chloroform that was in Caylee's system have caused these high levels of chloroform?

I just don't see how Casey could have spilled chloroform in the car without being overcome herself? So I am wondering that if Chloroform was in Caylee's system... could it have been released once she started to decompose? I really hope this makes some kind of sense?

I will go back and read up on the bottle found near Caylee's remains that tested positive for Chloroform, but could Casey have just slightly unscrewed the bottle enough to get what she needed out of it with the syringe, put the top back on, and then inject Caylee... then she would again quickly unscrew the top and shove the syringe inside and close it off again.
 
LittleBitty35 said:
I think this is a very interesting topic. Dr. Vass's testimony today was more riveting than all of the drama. I don't doubt there are kinks to work out with what he is attempting to do. But in 1994, DNA was so new to people, that if the OJ trial happened today (yes, there would be other issues to address, like prosecutorial error, LE error) the DNA would have clinched it.

The Mason Ranch body stuff is worrisome a little. It is a new technique. But the way I look at it as this, he is a pioneer. It does him no good to testify for the SA's office if his theory is kooky or bunk or he can be discredited by a jury or worse yet looked upon in a bad light in a peer review/accepted peers in his field. He has nothing to gain by joining this VAST conspiracy against ICA...if he can be taken down in open court, and made foolish in front of the very people who might later review his work and endorse it.

The truth is what he said was compelling. No idea whether it will come in or not...but I gotta say, my favorite part is when he analogized the smell of a decomposed person to a skunk in that it is a smell you never forget. I totally dug that because it would speak to a potential jury. Think about it. Most of us have likely never smelled a dead body, but he has and remembered the smell. And this falls along with the testimony of other witnesses who have said the same.

The same can also be said for a skunk. Most of us have smelled a skunk. We know that smell and could not and would not confuse it with any other smell. LittleBitty herself was actually skunked by a live skunk whilest walking her dogs...but I digress..

What I cannot fathom is why the SA's office didn't go more into the trash deal...because has not (if recent true crime memory serves) LE used not only cadeavor dogs but other methods to locate dead bodies in garbage dumps...I mean huge garbage dumps...I can name at least three cases of recent memory off of the top of my head...

I know the dogs don't have anything to do with this topic...but still...how do they go through a miles of a garbage dump and find a dead body? Clearly there is more to it than that and I think some of Vass's work is alluding to it.
Click to expand...

EXCELLENT post! ITA
I wondered if the SA is saving getting "more into the trash deal" for trial. It was a feeling I got watching them.

jmo
 
My head is spinning, so please excuse me.

I'm not sure, but I think Dr. Vass at one point tried to say the trash did not cause the smell, and that some of the compounds found on the paper towel were most likely coming from the trunk of the car either because someone tried to wipe decomp fluid or that the sticky compounds in the air of the trunk clung to the trash creating the fly/maggot situation.

JB thinks pizza.
 
katydid23 said:
One of Baez's main arguments was as follows:

Baez:Isn't it true that you are not a bio-chemist? Then are you aware that your WIKI refers to you as one?

JA: OBJECTION

Baez: Okay, well, Isn't it true that your Sniffer Machine will make you a pretty penny, when ALL of the police departments across the nation order it because of this testimony at this trial?
Click to expand...

omg he did NOT say this did he? I missed that. what a plonker
 
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