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Thread: WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #9

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    WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #9

    Please continue here. Please be mindful of TOS and don't let emotion get the better part of the discussion. Be sure your posts attacks the information and not the poster or posters in general.


    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55843"]Thread 1[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92575"]Thread 2[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94005"]Thread 3[/ame]

    Thread 4 - On hold.

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125994"]Thread 5[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6106001#post6106001"]Thread 6[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128012"]Thread 7[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129550"]Thread 8[/ame]


    Appeal is to be decided in May 2011.

    Thanks,

    Salem

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    In response to someone asking if Raffaele had ever been diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, no, I was not speaking clinically, I was pondering a response/personality type. Other than that, he was over-explaining.

    I recently read somewhere that Mignini may have latched onto his theory regarding AK and RS all the more because he was trying to "save face" regarding being under indictment for his other theory. In any case, it is something to bear in mind, for surely Mignini is not immune to having his own motives scrutinized, even as he scrutinizes the motives of others.

    My feelings about the appeal trial: Nothing new, and seems to be an avenue to uphold the original conviction, so I find this very disappointing, and also not very conducive to discussion.

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    Also, I know there has been a controversy on Wikipedia and I am wondering, even if resolved to full satisfaction, will this have any real bearing ? http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/daily...a_info_scr.php

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    very interesting...this house of cards has to come down...it has to...

    otherwise I beleive that ANYone on ANY day of the week can walk into ANY police station or court in Italy and say some BS theroy about ANYone and have them idicted and prosecuted.

    these folks should be playwrites, not law enforcement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by minazoe View Post
    very interesting...this house of cards has to come down...it has to...

    otherwise I beleive that ANYone on ANY day of the week can walk into ANY police station or court in Italy and say some BS theroy about ANYone and have them idicted and prosecuted.

    these folks should be playwrites, not law enforcement.
    That is what bothers me about the people who fly off the handle if you dare say anything against Mignini. The fact that he accused 20 people---some of them journalists and law enforcement officials - and then was humiliated by having the indictments thrown out, and himself being indicted and convicted, speaks volumes about why he leapt on his pet theory about RS and AK and just would not let go, like a dog with a bone. It is highly suspect, yet the appeals trial is saying nothing about this, not exploring it, so really does not seem to be getting to the crux of the matter, IMO.

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    Just taking not of some words from this piece, written way back at the time of the original controversy. But again, so much of what seems was really unfair and implicated AK and RS in the first place is now so much water under the bridge. To me, the appeal trial is presupposing and upholding things which should have had graver circumstances for the prosecution long ago:
    The Lumumba statement was a Statement. She has quite obviously been told which answers to give and that there is no way out of that room except to provide the cops solution of the crime, which entails complying with their theory based on the text message sent to Patrick, that they simply cannot understand because the American phraseology escapes them. Her 'confession' was imaginary without doubt to get away from that horrible room and get to the toilet which she was denied. There are a lot of people in the world who have confessed to crimes that later DNA evidence proved they didn't do, and women have been known to pass motions when being cuffed around the ears in these interrogations.[ame="http://crimeshots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9580"]http://crimeshots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9580[/ame]


    In fact, reading through the entire piece makes me think that the conviction ought to have been avoided, because the appeal does not seem to be addressing the vast injustices, really glaring, which set the whole thing in motion originally.
    Last edited by SMK; 04-01-2011 at 11:52 AM. Reason: adding material

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    within that crimeshots piece, it is stated that a 3 person attack is "nonsensical", and that "the lone wolf theory is still a great option". But this was before conviction. Now the appeals trial focuses on things which the prosecution says are "nothing new", and they are confident the convictions will be upheld. So this is disheartening and empty to all who believe the original premise of accusing AK and RS is at the crux of the injustice....I believe the below should be true, but as Nova and others have pointed out re the news spin, is not anywhere close to a "done deal"

    Amanda Knox Appeal: Prosecution's Case Begins To Crumble
    March 26, 2011- The prosecution's case against Amanda Knox began to crumble today as their star witness against Knox gave confused and contradictory testimony. Antonio Curatolo- a homeless drug addict aged 54- gave conflicting dates and appeared confused while giving testimony in Perugia earlier today. Amanda Knox' team were more than pleased with the results. It was Curatolo's testimony at the original trial that helped convict Amanda and her ex-boyfriend Raffaele in December 2009. This time around he simply 'blew it' and even contradicted himself on the stand.

    The DNA will be the topic of importance next month as testimony from the two new experts are due May 21 and will no doubt be in Amanda's favor. Today I believe was the beginning of the end for the prosecution's case against Amanda Knox- which was never more than weak to begin with. I do not think it is too soon to say that Amanda will win her appeal and will be set free by early Summer. Unfortunately, the years she has spent in prison are gone forever, but at least the correction of this grave injustice is at hand- Better late than never.
    http://amandaknoxappealforum.blogspo...ions-case.html
    Last edited by SMK; 04-01-2011 at 12:13 PM.

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    I believe that good sense will prevail and she will be free.
    It is my understanding that winning an appeal or at least a lesser shorter sentence are common there.

    remember we don't have to like Amanda and her simpering boyfriend to know that the charges are a fantasy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    Just taking not of some words from this piece, written way back at the time of the original controversy. But again, so much of what seems was really unfair and implicated AK and RS in the first place is now so much water under the bridge. To me, the appeal trial is presupposing and upholding things which should have had graver circumstances for the prosecution long ago:
    The Lumumba statement was a Statement. She has quite obviously been told which answers to give and that there is no way out of that room except to provide the cops solution of the crime, which entails complying with their theory based on the text message sent to Patrick, that they simply cannot understand because the American phraseology escapes them. Her 'confession' was imaginary without doubt to get away from that horrible room and get to the toilet which she was denied. There are a lot of people in the world who have confessed to crimes that later DNA evidence proved they didn't do, and women have been known to pass motions when being cuffed around the ears in these interrogations.http://crimeshots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9580


    In fact, reading through the entire piece makes me think that the conviction ought to have been avoided, because the appeal does not seem to be addressing the vast injustices, really glaring, which set the whole thing in motion originally.
    If I understand correctly, that first statement by AK was excluded by the Court. What the prosecution was allowed to use was the so-called "gift statement" written by AK herself the following morning.

    Understandably, this is why some people have trouble seeing coercion. I think AK was not so much "confessing" anew as already working to recant her statement. (The gift statement is the one that says the events she describes "seem more unreal than real to me" -- which should have been a red flag to investigators to proceed with caution before they arrested an innocent man.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by minazoe View Post
    I believe that good sense will prevail and she will be free.
    It is my understanding that winning an appeal or at least a lesser shorter sentence are common there.

    remember we don't have to like Amanda and her simpering boyfriend to know that the charges are a fantasy.
    Was RS "simpering"? He seems like a ghost figure in all accounts of events and I have the hardest time getting a sense of him.

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    simpering? yes... I guess I was basing him on the movie LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by minazoe View Post
    simpering? yes... I guess I was basing him on the movie LOL.
    I wonder if he is painfully shy. In photos, he seems like a good-looking kid to me, so I wouldn't expect him to have trouble attracting women. Yet I believe I read his relationship with AK was his first "serious" (if brief) affair. (Of course, given the history of this case, maybe that was just something somebody said or wrote to "explain" AK's "mysterious hold" over him.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    In response to someone asking if Raffaele had ever been diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, no, I was not speaking clinically, I was pondering a response/personality type. Other than that, he was over-explaining.

    I recently read somewhere that Mignini may have latched onto his theory regarding AK and RS all the more because he was trying to "save face" regarding being under indictment for his other theory. In any case, it is something to bear in mind, for surely Mignini is not immune to having his own motives scrutinized, even as he scrutinizes the motives of others.

    My feelings about the appeal trial: Nothing new, and seems to be an avenue to uphold the original conviction, so I find this very disappointing, and also not very conducive to discussion.
    That was me that asked that. Thank you for answering. So this was just a thought you were pondering, right? So there's no medical/educational/developmental/autism experts who have diagnosed him as such nor has any expert stated that he presents characteristics which would indicate Asperger syndrome, correct? So we really can't chalk that statement about "pricking" Meredith with a knife up to Asperger's syndrome with any degree of certainty or basis....good to note. Thanks.

    Unless specified otherwise and linked, my posts are simply random thoughts of mine, in no particular order, not directed at any post or poster, including but not limited to the ones directly above mine. My opinion only, yours may vary. IMO. JMO. IMHO. JMHO. MOO. Disclaimer, small print, asterisk, and etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by minazoe View Post
    I believe that good sense will prevail and she will be free.
    It is my understanding that winning an appeal or at least a lesser shorter sentence are common there.

    remember we don't have to like Amanda and her simpering boyfriend to know that the charges are a fantasy.
    In fact we don't have to like or dislike anyone to feel someone is guilty or not guilty of something. So, we don't have to NOT like AK and RS to feel the convictions were valid. IMO

    Unless specified otherwise and linked, my posts are simply random thoughts of mine, in no particular order, not directed at any post or poster, including but not limited to the ones directly above mine. My opinion only, yours may vary. IMO. JMO. IMHO. JMHO. MOO. Disclaimer, small print, asterisk, and etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flourish View Post
    That was me that asked that. Thank you for answering. So this was just a thought you were pondering, right? So there's no medical/educational/developmental/autism experts who have diagnosed him as such nor has any expert stated that he presents characteristics which would indicate Asperger syndrome, correct? So we really can't chalk that statement about "pricking" Meredith with a knife up to Asperger's syndrome with any degree of certainty or basis....good to note. Thanks.
    Right, I was just speculating, and there is no clinical record of RS having any kind of Aspberger. I guess I brought that up because I had been reading something on Aspberger syndrome, and that it causes strange "over explaining" of things. I guess that story about "pricking Meredith" must indicate either : 1. He knew something more than he was telling or 2. He was so scared, that he said more than he needed to or should have. From all accounts, Meredith never visited RS's apartment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flourish View Post
    That was me that asked that. Thank you for answering. So this was just a thought you were pondering, right? So there's no medical/educational/developmental/autism experts who have diagnosed him as such nor has any expert stated that he presents characteristics which would indicate Asperger syndrome, correct? So we really can't chalk that statement about "pricking" Meredith with a knife up to Asperger's syndrome with any degree of certainty or basis....good to note. Thanks.
    You are absolutely correct. But in fairness to SMK, I thought it was clear in her original mention that s/he was merely speculating remote possibilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flourish View Post
    In fact we don't have to like or dislike anyone to feel someone is guilty or not guilty of something. So, we don't have to NOT like AK and RS to feel the convictions were valid. IMO
    Also correct. I know there are other boards where posters seem to have fantasized personal relationships with the principals in this case, fantasies that seem to render them incapable of objective thought, but that doesn't appear to be true here. Neither with those who agree nor disagree with the verdicts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flourish View Post
    In fact we don't have to like or dislike anyone to feel someone is guilty or not guilty of something. So, we don't have to NOT like AK and RS to feel the convictions were valid. IMO
    Yes. That is true. One could really LIKE A and R and believe them guilty, or really DISlike them and yet believe fully in their innocence. That is why it is stupid (on other forums) to call people who believe in her innocence "Knox Groupies"---its just ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    Right, I was just speculating, and there is no clinical record of RS having any kind of Aspberger. I guess I brought that up because I had been reading something on Aspberger syndrome, and that it causes strange "over explaining" of things. I guess that story about "pricking Meredith" must indicate either : 1. He knew something more than he was telling or 2. He was so scared, that he said more than he needed to or should have. From all accounts, Meredith never visited RS's apartment.
    This is merely my impression, but some who have trouble believing in coerced statements in this case seem to imagine police interrogations as conversations. They really aren't, particularly not once LE decides someone is a suspect (even an unofficial one).

    I was reminded of this last night while watching a recent show on Jon-Benet Ramsey that showed clips of the interrogation of her parents. (Otherwise, the case has nothing to do with the events in Perugia.) By the time they sat down with LE, the Ramseys had been well coached by their high-powered and expensive legal team, and neither caved to pressure from their interrogators. But listening to the questioning (as in any case where tapes are available) should remind one of the multiple tactics used by interrogators.

    People under interrogation are not only treated rudely and confrontationally in ways most haven't been treated since elementary school, they are faced with a variety of tactics including promises they will be released "if you can just clear up one more thing" and being told their memory can't be correct because of irrefutable "scientific" evidence. (None of this worked on the Ramseys, but as I said, they were well-coached and months had passed since the murder.)

    Any inconsistency, even accidental, is treated as major evidence of deception, if not guilt. This must have been very difficult for someone as "flaky" as we've all noted AK to be, for someone as erratic with her use of language even in everyday writings.

    Some have suggested that AK was treated with kid gloves until the night she was confronted with her text message to PL. But a change in attitude from interrogators may have been precisely what prompted her to make a false statement in just a couple of hours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    Yes. That is true. One could really LIKE A and R and believe them guilty, or really DISlike them and yet believe fully in their innocence. That is why it is stupid (on other forums) to call people who believe in her innocence "Knox Groupies"---its just ridiculous.
    As I said above, I have almost no sense of RS. And I don't for a moment think I can know AK well enough through media accounts to form a like or dislike of her. Frankly, the same is true of the victim: I have yet to encounter anything but positive impressions of her; still they are second-hand to me and delivered only through the media.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    As I said above, I have almost no sense of RS. And I don't for a moment think I can know AK well enough through media accounts to form a like or dislike of her. Frankly, the same is true of the victim: I have yet to encounter anything but positive impressions of her; still they are second-hand to me and delivered only through the media.
    I agree-- that is why some forums just dripping with "love" for Meredith strike me as phony. I am sure she was a lovely girl, and the murder was horrific - but it is really only her family and friends who can truly grieve her.

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    This is merely my impression, but some who have trouble believing in coerced statements in this case seem to imagine police interrogations as conversations. They really aren't, particularly not once LE decides someone is a suspect (even an unofficial one).

    I was reminded of this last night while watching a recent show on Jon-Benet Ramsey that showed clips of the interrogation of her parents. (Otherwise, the case has nothing to do with the events in Perugia.) By the time they sat down with LE, the Ramseys had been well coached by their high-powered and expensive legal team, and neither caved to pressure from their interrogators. But listening to the questioning (as in any case where tapes are available) should remind one of the multiple tactics used by interrogators.

    People under interrogation are not only treated rudely and confrontationally in ways most haven't been treated since elementary school, they are faced with a variety of tactics including promises they will be released "if you can just clear up one more thing" and being told their memory can't be correct because of irrefutable "scientific" evidence. (None of this worked on the Ramseys, but as I said, they were well-coached and months had passed since the murder.)

    Any inconsistency, even accidental, is treated as major evidence of deception, if not guilt. This must have been very difficult for someone as "flaky" as we've all noted AK to be, for someone as erratic with her use of language even in everyday writings.

    Some have suggested that AK was treated with kid gloves until the night she was confronted with her text message to PL. But a change in attitude from interrogators may have been precisely what prompted her to make a false statement in just a couple of hours.
    Well put---very important for people to remember.

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    Also: Anyone who has read Preston's account of being interrogated by Mignini, will see what Amanda was up against. Preston was middle-aged, a seasoned journalist, a married father---but felt weak, sheepish, and frightened by Mignini's force. So imagine a 20 year old, in a foreign country, unfamiliar with the actual spoken language outside the classroom---must have been terrifying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    Yes. That is true. One could really LIKE A and R and believe them guilty, or really DISlike them and yet believe fully in their innocence. That is why it is stupid (on other forums) to call people who believe in her innocence "Knox Groupies"---its just ridiculous.
    Well said! I started out thinking A and R were involved in some way, then changed to where I have neutral feelings about A and R, yet feel the evidence does not support their conviction.
    With self-awareness comes the realization that none of this makes sense

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    I had read Douglass Preston's account of being interrogated by Mignini some time ago, but now know he has become a supporter of Knox, because he recalls that even as a middle-aged, world travelled journalist, he was totally unnerved by Mignini. From Preston's account:

    I asked, “Is this about the Monster of Florence case?”

    “Bravo,” said the detective.

    The next day, I was ushered into a pleasant office in the Procura della Repubblica, just outside the ancient city walls of Perugia. Present were one of the detectives from the previous day, a small and very tense captain of police with orange hair, a stenographer, and Giuliano Mignini, sitting behind a desk. I had dressed smartly—Italians judge harshly in such matters—and I had a folded copy of the International Herald Tribune under my arm as a prop.

    Mignini was a small man of indeterminate middle age, well groomed, with a fleshy face and thinning hair. His voice was calm and pleasant and he addressed me with elaborate courtesy, bestowing the honorific of dottore, which, in Italy, denotes the highest respect. He explained that I had the right to an interpreter, but finding one might take many hours, during which time I would be unpleasantly detained. In his opinion, I spoke Italian fluently. I asked if I needed a lawyer, and he said that, although it was of course my right, it wasn’t necessary; he merely wanted to ask a few questions of a routine nature.

    His questions were gentle, posed almost apologetically. The stenographer typed the questions, and my answers, into her computer. Sometimes Mignini rephrased my answers in better Italian, checking solicitously to see if that was what I had meant to say. He asked me about Spezi’s lawyer, Alessandro Traversi, and wanted to know what I could say about Spezi’s legal strategy. He named many names and asked if Spezi had ever mentioned them. Most were unfamiliar. The questions went on like this for an hour, and I was starting to feel reassured. I even had a glimmer of hope that I might get out in time to join my wife and children for lunch at a nearby restaurant, which came highly recommended in the guidebooks.

    At this point the conversation turned to our visit to the villa. Why did we go? What did we do there? Where exactly did we walk? Was there talk of a gun? Of iron boxes? Was my back ever to Spezi? Did we see anyone there? Who? What was said?

    I answered truthfully, trying to suppress a damnable habit of over-explanation, but I could see that Mignini was not happy. He repeated the same questions, in different forms. It began to dawn on me that the previous line of inquiry had been nothing more than a few balls lobbed in the bullpen. Now, the game had begun.

    Mignini’s face flushed as his frustration mounted. He frequently instructed the stenographer to read back my earlier answers. “You said that, and now you say this. Which is true, Dottor Preston? Which is true?”

    I began to stumble over my words (as I’ve noted, I am not fluent in Italian, especially legal and criminological terms). With a growing sense of dismay, I could hear from my own stammering, hesitant voice that I was sounding like a liar.

    “Listen to this,” Mignini said. He nodded to the stenographer, who pressed a button on her computer. There was the ringing of a phone, and then my voice:

    “Pronto.”

    “Ciao, sono Mario.”

    Spezi and I chatted for a moment while I listened in amazement to my own voice, clearer on the intercept than in the original call on my lousy cell phone. Mignini played it once, then again. He stopped at the point where Spezi said, “We did it all,” and fixed his eyes on me: “What exactly did you do, Dottor Preston?”

    I explained that Spezi was referring to his decision to report to the police what he had heard about possible evidence hidden at the villa.

    “No, Dottor Preston.” He played the recording again and again, asking repeatedly, “What is this thing you did? What did you do?” He seized on Spezi’s comment that the telephone was bad. What did he mean by that?

    I explained that he thought the phone was tapped.

    And why, Mignini wanted to know, were we concerned about the phones being tapped if we weren’t engaged in illegal activity?

    “Because it isn’t nice to have your phone tapped,” I answered feebly.

    “That is not an answer, Dottor Preston.”

    He played the recording again, stopping at several words and demanding to know what Spezi or I meant, as if we were speaking in code, a common Mafia ploy. I tried to explain that the conversation meant what it said, but Mignini brushed my explanations aside. His face was flushed with a look of contempt. I knew why: he had expected me to lie, and I had met his expectation. I stammered out a question: Did he think we had committed a crime at the villa?

    Mignini straightened up in his chair and, with a note of triumph in his voice, said, Yes.”

    “What?”

    “You and Spezi either planted, or were planning to plant, false evidence at that villa in an attempt to frame an innocent man for being the Monster of Florence, to derail this investigation, and to deflect suspicion from Spezi. That is what you were doing. This comment—We did it all’—that is what he meant.”

    I was floored. I stammered that this was just a theory, but Mignini interrupted me and said, “These are not theories. They are facts!” He insisted I knew perfectly well that Spezi was being investigated for the murder of Narducci, and that I knew more about the murder than I was letting on. “That makes you an accessory. Yes, Dottor Preston,” Mignini insisted, “I can hear it in your voice. I can hear the tone of knowledge, of deep familiarity with these events. Just listen.” His voice rose with restrained exaltation. Listen to yourself!”

    And, for maybe the tenth time, he replayed the phone conversation. “Perhaps you have been duped, but I don’t think so. You know! And now, you have one last chance—one last chance—to tell us what you know, or I will charge you with perjury. I don’t care; I will do it, even if the news goes around the world tomorrow.”

    I felt sick, and I had the sudden urge to relieve myself. I asked for the way to the bathroom. I returned a few minutes later, having failed to muster much composure. “I’ve told you the truth,” I managed to croak. “What more can I say?”

    Mignini waved his hand and was handed a legal tome. He placed it on his desk with the utmost delicacy, opened it, and, in a voice worthy of a funeral oration, began to read the text of the law. I heard that I was now “indagato” (an official suspect under investigation) for the crime of reticence and making false statements. He announced that the investigation would be suspended to allow me to leave Italy, but that it would be reinstated when the investigation of Spezi was concluded.

    The secretary printed out a transcript. The two-and-a-half-hour interrogation had been edited down to two pages, which I amended and signed.

    “May I keep this?” I asked.

    “No. It is under seal.”

    Very stiffly, I picked up my International Herald Tribune, folded it under my arm, and turned to leave.

    “If you ever decide to talk, Dottor Preston, we are here.”

    On rubbery legs I descended to the street, into a wintry drizzle.

    I left Italy the next day. When I returned to my home in Maine, which stands on a bluff overlooking the gray Atlantic, and listened to the breakers on the rocks below and the seagulls calling above, I felt tears trickling down my face.

    But it was not over—not at all.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...orence/4981/6/

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