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Thread: WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #9

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    From my understanding , ILE suspected Patrick, and coerced Knox to that end. They are responsible for his being jailed (did they not think to check his alibi first? Nope, too busy with their "vision")---and THEY are responsible for the APPALLING treatment this poor man received ( he was beaten, stripped of his clothes---just awful. )
    So Amanda is not responsible for the statement she gave confirming her accusations against Patrick ... it is the fault of the police ... even though all they did was provide Knox with pen, paper, and a quiet place to write her "gift" statement?

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  3. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Statements given as a witness could not be used against Amanda. The only statement that was admitted was the "gift" she voluntarily provided, without coercion or even a request from police, on Nov 7.

    Are you viewing the bedroom as the scene of the crime, or the cottage as the scene of the crime? I ask because if we look at the Nancy Cooper trial, evidence is being presented from the car, the bedroom, the front foyer, the location where Nancy was found ... and so on. Should we tell those investigators that they're making a mistake and should narrow the crime scene to only the car, or only the front foyer?
    Since Knox lived in that cottage for many weeks, her DNA was all over it. Thus, we need really solid evidence - without blunders opening things up to contamination - that she was part of the murder scene and part of the action.

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  5. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    I think the three were all drugged up at the cottage, and Amanda put him up to seeing if he could get lucky with Meredith. He fled the scene as soon as Meredith was fatally injured, distancing himself from the lovebirds. He also opted for the fast track trial option because he feared that the lovebirds would try to put it all on him.
    So how does the knife you believe is the murder weapon or at least involved, fit in here? If AK decided to put him up to it at that time and it wasn't pre-planned...
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  7. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    So Amanda is not responsible for the statement she gave confirming her accusations against Patrick ... it is the fault of the police ... even though all they did was provide Knox with pen, paper, and a quiet place to write her "gift" statement?
    Why did they beat him? Arrogance and an agenda come to mind. They might have taken her "gift" with a grain of salt at that point.

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  9. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    Since Knox lived in that cottage for many weeks, her DNA was all over it. Thus, we need really solid evidence - without blunders opening things up to contamination - that she was part of the murder scene and part of the action.
    Nancy Cooper was also most likely murdered at home (don't know yet, trial is ongoing), so should we narrow the crime scene to only one room in her house? Why do we want to reduce the crime scene to the bedroom for a trial in Italy, but trials in the US always include the broader crime scene? I've never heard of a trial in the US where someone was murdered at home and the crime scene was reduced to a few feet on either side of the victim's body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggy View Post
    So how does the knife you believe is the murder weapon or at least involved, fit in here? If AK decided to put him up to it at that time and it wasn't pre-planned...
    It isn't my belief that the murder weapon is a couple of knives, that comes from the medical examiner. According the Raffaele, Meredith's DNA got on the blade when he playfully nicked her with they knife while she was having dinner at his apartment. How about that for a fishy explanation of the evidence!

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  12. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Nancy Cooper was also most likely murdered at home (don't know yet, trial is ongoing), so should we narrow the crime scene to only one room in her house? Why do we want to reduce the crime scene to the bedroom for a trial in Italy, but trials in the US always include the broader crime scene? I've never heard of a trial in the US where someone was murdered at home and the crime scene was reduced to a few feet on either side of the victim's body.
    No, you don't narrow the crime scene, but how can you prove when the DNA was deposited? If someone gets killed in my living room tonight, they will find my DNA all over the condo, in every room, where does this leave me?

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  14. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    Why did they beat him? Arrogance and an agenda come to mind. They might have taken her "gift" with a grain of salt at that point.
    Personally, I don't believe that ... but ... You must be referring to the Daily Mail article, the one that includes this:

    "Now, in an exclusive interview with The Mail on Sunday, Patrick reveals his feelings towards the infamous "Foxy Knoxy", and tells how the seemingly quintessential American turned into a tormented monster eaten up by anger towards both himself and Meredith.

    "She was angry I was firing her and wanted revenge," he says. "By the end, she hated me. But I don't even think she's evil.

    To be evil you have to have a soul. "Amanda doesn't. She's empty; dead inside. She's the ultimate actress, able to switch her emotions on and off in an instant. I don't believe a word she says. Everything that comes out of her mouth is a lie. But those lies have stained me for ever."

    ...

    "Meredith was a natural charmer, a beautiful girl who made friends easily, and effortlessly received attention wherever she went," Patrick explains, sitting beside his pretty Polish-born girlfriend of six years Aleksandra Kania, 28, and their 19-month-old son, Davide.

    "Amanda tried much harder, but was less popular. I didn't realise it at the time, but now I see that she was jealous. She wanted to be the queen bee, and as the weeks passed, it became clear that she wasn't. She hated anyone stealing her limelight ? and that included Meredith."

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1IfnI3Zyt

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  16. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Are you viewing the bedroom as the scene of the crime, or the cottage as the scene of the crime?
    The bedroom is the center of crime scene, and that is where I look to see real evidence that AK was there when MK was murdered. Also, I find it amazing that RG did not implicate AK, I'm sure LE would have wanted him to...
    Speaking of mysteries considering billions of people past/present; why me now or ever?

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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Personally, I don't believe that ... but ... You must be referring to the Daily Mail article, the one that includes this:

    "Now, in an exclusive interview with The Mail on Sunday, Patrick reveals his feelings towards the infamous "Foxy Knoxy", and tells how the seemingly quintessential American turned into a tormented monster eaten up by anger towards both himself and Meredith.

    "She was angry I was firing her and wanted revenge," he says. "By the end, she hated me. But I don't even think she's evil.

    To be evil you have to have a soul. "Amanda doesn't. She's empty; dead inside. She's the ultimate actress, able to switch her emotions on and off in an instant. I don't believe a word she says. Everything that comes out of her mouth is a lie. But those lies have stained me for ever."

    ...

    "Meredith was a natural charmer, a beautiful girl who made friends easily, and effortlessly received attention wherever she went," Patrick explains, sitting beside his pretty Polish-born girlfriend of six years Aleksandra Kania, 28, and their 19-month-old son, Davide.

    "Amanda tried much harder, but was less popular. I didn't realise it at the time, but now I see that she was jealous. She wanted to be the queen bee, and as the weeks passed, it became clear that she wasn't. She hated anyone stealing her limelight ? and that included Meredith."

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1IfnI3Zyt
    Well, obviously this man has lost his objectivity, after his ordeal. Of course he is angry. But I am not taking his words as gospel, or proof that Knox murdered.

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  20. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    No, you don't narrow the crime scene, but how can you prove when the DNA was deposited? If someone gets killed in my living room tonight, they will find my DNA all over the condo, in every room, where does this leave me?
    Why would Amanda's DNA be in Meredith's bedroom. The roommates had a common area where they socialized, and bedrooms were their private areas. Furthermore, Amanda has not claimed that she hung out in Meredith's bedroom. In fact, we know that as time passed, Meredith was not particularly fond of Amanda. Amanda's DNA should have been all over the kitchen/living room, but it wasn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    It seems that some people are willing to overlook Amanda's horrendous lies, and her complete absence of empathy and compassion when someone is suffering as a direct result of her actions. I would not want anyone like Amanda anywhere near me, my family, or anyone I cared about. I feel the very same way about Joran van der Sloot.

    You've mention duress a couple of times. How was Amanda under duress when she, sitting alone, asked for paper and pen, and then wrote a statement confirming her accusations against Patrick? How was Amanda under duress a day, or 3 days, or even 14 days later such that she could not tell investigators that she told a big fat lie about Patrick?
    Dude...you don't know Amanda or whether or not she has suffered due to the death of her roomate. You do not know the conditions or advice under which these letters or statements were written.

    and there is no evidence that Amanda did any of these things she is accused of and no proof that she was not advised or coerced or forced.

    none..and they could not prove their case here based on what they went to trial with in Italy...

    people need to stop fantasizing and conjuring scenario's where there is no real base in reality.

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  23. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    Well, obviously this man has lost his objectivity, after his ordeal. Of course he is angry. But I am not taking his words as gospel, or proof that Knox murdered.
    Maybe the Daily Mail is like the National Enquirer ... more fiction than fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by minazoe View Post
    Dude...you don't know Amanda or whether or not she has suffered due to the death of her roomate. You do not know the conditions or advice under which these letters or statements were written.

    and there is no evidence that Amanda did any of these things she is accused of and no proof that she was not advised or coerced or forced.

    none..and they could not prove their case here based on what they went to trial with in Italy...

    people need to stop fantasizing and conjuring scenario's where there is no real base in reality.
    Help me out ... what coercion was Amanda suffering when she was by herself on Nov 7 writing her "gift" statement? ... or ... is that the pro-conspiracy viewpoint where Amanda was actually forced to write that "gift" statement but she forgot to mention that in court?

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  26. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggy View Post
    Still, there were knives at the house where Meredith and Amanda lived - why form the intent at RS's? BTW is there something in the background suggesting three ways? AK may have been sexually active but women don't tend to suggest bringing another woman in, men do. And if they decided to try and bring Meredith in, why the knife? This concocted story has too many GINORMOUS gaps that can't be filled with the scant evidence.
    Why not form the intent at RS's? She wasn't going to attack her roommate on her own. And if that is indeed where they came up with some kind of plan of attack then it is very likely for AK to bring the knife from there. But we can only speculate on that. I agree there are gaps and of course we like to know the whole story, but that is not what the convictions are based on. They are all based on the list of 'scant evidence'

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  28. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Why would Amanda's DNA be in Meredith's bedroom. The roommates had a common area where they socialized, and bedrooms were their private areas. Furthermore, Amanda has not claimed that she hung out in Meredith's bedroom. In fact, we know that as time passed, Meredith was not particularly fond of Amanda. Amanda's DNA should have been all over the kitchen/living room, but it wasn't.
    What kind of AK DNA was found and how much? Now if you show me it was in the from of blood, clumps of hair, or sexual fluid of an amount consistent with a crime, that would get my attention... and then there's RG not implicating AK or RS...
    Speaking of mysteries considering billions of people past/present; why me now or ever?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
    What kind of AK DNA was found and how much? Now if you show me it was in the from of blood, clumps of hair, or sexual fluid of an amount consistent with a crime, that would get my attention... and then there's RG not implicating AK or RS...
    a fact which has been buried in silence...

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  32. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    It isn't my belief that the murder weapon is a couple of knives, that comes from the medical examiner. According the Raffaele, Meredith's DNA got on the blade when he playfully nicked her with they knife while she was having dinner at his apartment. How about that for a fishy explanation of the evidence!
    But you maladroitly just avoided the question of how RS's knife got to the apartment to be used as the murder weapon if the intent was formed after they left the apartment.
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  34. #369
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    Lots of discussion over the letter Amanda wrote and the usual out-of-context quoting of it. I think it's best to at least present the entire letter here to see exactly what she said, even though I'm sure many of you have already seen it.

    Transcript of Amanda Knox's note:

    This is very strange, I know, but really what happened is as confusing to me as it is to everyone else. I have been told there is hard evidence saying that I was at the place of the murder of my friend when it happened. This, I want to confirm, is something that to me, if asked a few days ago, would be impossible.
    I know that Raffaele has placed evidence against me, saying that I was not with him on the night of Meredith's murder, but let me tell you this. In my mind there are things I remember and things that are confused. My account of this story goes as follows, despite the evidence stacked against me:
    On Thursday November 1 I saw Meredith the last time at my house when she left around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. Raffaele was with me at the time. We, Raffaele and I, stayed at my house for a little while longer and around 5 in the evening we left to watch the movie Amelie at his house. After the movie I received a message from Patrik [sic], for whom I work at the pub "Le Chic". He told me in this message that it wasn't necessary for me to come into work for the evening because there was no one at my work.
    Now I remember to have also replied with the message: "See you later. Have a good evening!" and this for me does not mean that I wanted to meet him immediately. In particular because I said: "Good evening!" What happened after I know does not match up with what Raffaele was saying, but this is what I remember. I told Raffaele that I didn't have to work and that I could remain at home for the evening. After that I believe we relaxed in his room together, perhaps I checked my email. Perhaps I read or studied or perhaps I made love to Raffaele. In fact, I think I did make love with him.

    However, I admit that this period of time is rather strange because I am not quite sure. I smoked marijuana with him and I might even have fallen asleep. These things I am not sure about and I know they are important to the case and to help myself, but in reality, I don't think I did much. One thing I do remember is that I took a shower with Raffaele and this might explain how we passed the time. In truth, I do not remember exactly what day it was, but I do remember that we had a shower and we washed ourselves for a long time. He cleaned my ears, he dried and combed my hair.
    One of the things I am sure that definitely happened the night on which Meredith was murdered was that Raffaele and I ate fairly late, I think around 11 in the evening, although I can't be sure because I didn't look at the clock. After dinner I noticed there was blood on Raffaele's hand, but I was under the impression that it was blood from the fish. After we ate Raffaele washed the dishes but the pipes under his sink broke and water flooded the floor. But because he didn't have a mop I said we could clean it up tomorrow because we (Meredith, Laura, Filomena and I) have a mop at home. I remember it was quite late because we were both very tired (though I can't say the time).
    The next thing I remember was waking up the morning of Friday November 2nd around 10am and I took a plastic bag to take back my dirty cloths to go back to my house. It was then that I arrived home alone that I found the door to my house was wide open and this all began. In regards to this "confession" that I made last night, I want to make clear that I'm very doubtful of the verity of my statements because they were made under the pressures of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion. Not only was I told I would be arrested and put in jail for 30 years, but I was also hit in the head when I didn't remember a fact correctly. I understand that the police are under a lot of stress, so I understand the treatment I received.
    However, it was under this pressure and after many hours of confusion that my mind came up with these answers. In my mind I saw Patrik in flashes of blurred images. I saw him near the basketball court. I saw him at my front door. I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith screaming. But I've said this many times so as to make myself clear: these things seem unreal to me, like a dream, and I am unsure if they are real things that happened or are just dreams my head has made to try to answer the questions in my head and the questions I am being asked.
    But the truth is, I am unsure about the truth and here's why:
    1. The police have told me that they have hard evidence that places me at the house, my house, at the time of Meredith's murder. I don't know what proof they are talking about, but if this is true, it means I am very confused and my dreams must be real.
    2. My boyfriend has claimed that I have said things that I know are not true. I KNOW I told him I didn't have to work that night. I remember that moment very clearly. I also NEVER asked him to lie for me. This is absolutely a lie. What I don't understand is why Raffaele, who has always been so caring and gentle with me, would lie about this. What does he have to hide? I don't think he killed Meredith, but I do think he is scared, like me. He walked into a situation that he has never had to be in, and perhaps he is trying to find a way out by disassociating himself with me.
    Honestly, I understand because this is a very scary situation. I also know that the police don't believe things of me that I know I can explain, such as:
    1. I know the police are confused as to why it took me so long to call someone after I found the door to my house open and blood in the bathroom. The truth is, I wasn't sure what to think, but I definitely didn't think the worst, that someone was murdered. I thought a lot of things, mainly that perhaps someone got hurt and left quickly to take care of it. I also thought that maybe one of my roommates was having menstral [sic] problems and hadn't cleaned up. Perhaps I was in shock, but at the time I didn't know what to think and that's the truth. That is why I talked to Raffaele about it in the morning, because I was worried and wanted advice.
    2. I also know that the fact that I can't fully recall the events that I claim took place at Raffaele's home during the time that Meredith was murdered is incriminating. And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house.
    3. I'm very confused at this time. My head is full of contrasting ideas and I know I can be frustrating to work with for this reason. But I also want to tell the truth as best I can. Everything I have said in regards to my involvement in Meredith's death, even though it is contrasting, are the best truth that I have been able to think.
    [illegible section]
    I'm trying, I really am, because I'm scared for myself. I know I didn't kill Meredith. That's all I know for sure. In these flashbacks that I'm having, I see Patrik as the murderer, but the way the truth feels in my mind, there is no way for me to have known because I don't remember FOR SURE if I was at my house that night. The questions that need answering, at least for how I'm thinking are:
    1. Why did Raffaele lie? (or for you) Did Raffaele lie?
    2. Why did I think of Patrik?
    3. Is the evidence proving my pressance [sic] at the time and place of the crime reliable? If so, what does this say about my memory? Is it reliable?
    4. Is there any other evidence condemning Patrik or any other person?
    3. Who is the REAL murder [sic]? This is particularly important because I don't feel I can be used as condemning testimone [sic] in this instance.
    I have a clearer mind that I've had before, but I'm still missing parts, which I know is bad for me. But this is the truth and this is what I'm thinking at this time. Please don't yell at me because it only makes me more confused, which doesn't help anyone. I understand how serious this situation is, and as such, I want to give you this information as soon and as clearly as possible.
    If there are still parts that don't make sense, please ask me. I'm doing the best I can, just like you are. Please believe me at least in that, although I understand if you don't. All I know is that I didn't kill Meredith, and so I have nothing but lies to be afraid of.
    Last edited by Malkmus; 04-05-2011 at 02:41 PM.

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  36. #370
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    Intersting - the bleach clean up. Under the luminol light test, when someone has performed a bleach clean up it is smeared and does not leave a visible pristine footprint. the cottage does not show a bleach clean up.

    I vote for shower cleaner on the feet tracked onto the wood floor. Throw that evidence out!
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  38. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherlockh View Post
    Why not form the intent at RS's? She wasn't going to attack her roommate on her own. And if that is indeed where they came up with some kind of plan of attack then it is very likely for AK to bring the knife from there. But we can only speculate on that. I agree there are gaps and of course we like to know the whole story, but that is not what the convictions are based on. They are all based on the list of 'scant evidence'
    In order to do that she would have had to decided while with her hot new Italian lover with beautiful lips, to grab a knife to assault her roomate with and leave to do the deed.

    Choosing someone to bring into your relationship involves finding a person who would want to - I think she had an inkling that MK was not the person to ask this of. So, this makes no sense. She's in her love nest with RS and with no history of any of this behavior, takes a knife from his apartment, leaves with him to go murder her roomate for complaining about her being untidy? And when exactly did it become a sex orgy need for AK? Too many holes, wholly unbelievable and holy crap - people actually buy this.
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  40. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
    What kind of AK DNA was found and how much? Now if you show me it was in the from of blood, clumps of hair, or sexual fluid of an amount consistent with a crime, that would get my attention... and then there's RG not implicating AK or RS...
    He did implicate them.

    What do you mean by how much DNA was found? I don't know what kind of answer you expect. A thimble full??? A bucket full??? I would refer you to the judge's summary where there are pages and pages documenting the DNA evidence.

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  42. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggy View Post
    But you maladroitly just avoided the question of how RS's knife got to the apartment to be used as the murder weapon if the intent was formed after they left the apartment.
    Why not ask Amanda ... maybe her version will be more entertaining than Raffaele's version.

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  44. #374
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    "However, it was under this pressure and after many hours of confusion that my mind came up with these answers. In my mind I saw Patrik in flashes of blurred images. I saw him near the basketball court. I saw him at my front door. I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith screaming. But I've said this many times so as to make myself clear: these things seem unreal to me, like a dream, and I am unsure if they are real things that happened or are just dreams my head has made to try to answer the questions in my head and the questions I am being asked."

    I for one would not be taking this as any clear accusation of Patrick. I would not be using this girl to clear up anything...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggy View Post
    In order to do that she would have had to decided while with her hot new Italian lover with beautiful lips, to grab a knife to assault her roomate with and leave to do the deed.

    Choosing someone to bring into your relationship involves finding a person who would want to - I think she had an inkling that MK was not the person to ask this of. So, this makes no sense. She's in her love nest with RS and with no history of any of this behavior, takes a knife from his apartment, leaves with him to go murder her roomate for complaining about her being untidy? And when exactly did it become a sex orgy need for AK? Too many holes, wholly unbelievable and holy crap - people actually buy this.
    EXACTLY RIGHT, all the way...

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