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Thread: WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #9

  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    That mysterious missing half of the footprint ... but perhaps it wasn't a clean up. I eagerly away what sort of explanations pro-conspiracists have for the disappearing 1/2 of a bloody footprint.
    Ziggy will get right back to you on that .
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  3. #402
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    Thanks so much Malkmus for digging up the Transcript of Amanda Knox's note and posting it-
    I find it most interesting to read - especially where AK says, "All I know is that I didn't kill Meredith, and so I have nothing but lies to be afraid of."
    Last edited by OldSteve; 04-05-2011 at 04:41 PM.
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  5. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    First of all, Patrick would not have needed an alibi if Amanda had not accused him of murder, and secondly, unfortunately, it took two weeks for an alibi witness to come forward on Patrick's behalf. Nobody wants the wrong guy to spend two weeks in jail ... except Amanda.
    I think that shows the inadequacy of the police department that it took that long. Arrestees point fingers at others all the time. Law enforcement should be equipped to deal with that. Again it is their duty alone to verify they have probable cause to hold a person and to seek evidence of their guilt or innocence...theirs alone. It is irrelevant what type of person lies or squeels or what information may come out of a coersive police interrogation. It is simply irrelevant.
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  7. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    That mysterious missing half of the footprint ... but perhaps it wasn't a clean up. I eagerly away what sort of explanations pro-conspiracists have for the disappearing 1/2 of a bloody footprint.
    Are you talking about the half a footprint in the bathroom visibly in blood?
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    Speaking of mysteries - billions of humans past and present; so how did I windup conscious, self-aware looking out from inside this one? Did the prize-patrol show up at my birth?

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  10. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggy View Post
    Corrections fred: and please read my posts more carefully in the future so as to avoid unecessary replies to correct misinformation. I think it really boggs down the forum flow of information.

    1. they got a conviction in Italy not the U.S. I do believe that this would not happen in a U.S. court with today's modern techniques that are required by CSI - the whole MR. FUNG incident was years ago - Italy is obviously way behind.

    2. I did not get my feelings of sham from the movie, I got it from my own observation of the evidence when my curiosity was piqued by the movie. Please do not suggest that I have not read many pages and watched numerous videos in a quest for the truth when said quest was entered with NO AGENDA. I don't care about AK or RS or even MK really. The truth has no agenda.

    3. This was a reckless and disorganized killer. What evidence do you think shows a clean up? There are plenty of explanations why he left evidence in the toilet - the most obvious is he was interrupted when he heard someone come home. He didn't clean up because he was in a bit of a hurry to exit stage left even, his crime scene! Maybe he attempted to clean off a shoe and then just decided to bolt. He had no idea how long he had to clean up, so why start? It might have been a quick thought and then the realization that his best bet was to jam on out. Still, I don't see solid evidence of clean up.
    Oh I read them completely, just amazed that you feel/see it that way.

    1- maybe you should cruise the Cooper and Young murder trials/cases. Every bit of evidence is circumstancial. It would be interesting to see which 'side' of the case you are on there. What about S.Peterson... wasn't that trial held in the US? Where was the actual/direct evidence against him?

    2- What would be the 'agenda' for questioning the verdict of a full trial when over 20 judges have looked at the evidence and found both AK and RS of being involved? What about the jurors with judges on the panel too... were they searching for the TRUTH with the entire body of evidence to look over instead of internet searches? They are perfectly capable of finding the truth IMO.

    3- Bathroom mat print shows there was some type of cleanup. The luminal prints show there was a cleanup. Why would RG 'bolt' after only cleaning some of the evidence? He wouldn't have, that's why. Obviously, to unbiased observers, the staging of the burglary and the partial cleanup show that someone wanted the crime to look 'different' than what actually occured. Who would have reason to do so... . You know who AGAIN. All those pesky pieces of circumstancial evidence sure do pile up.
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  12. #407
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    Hey bloody footprint people: and so you are saying the RS or AK cleaned up half of his footprint but left the other half after meticulously wiping out all other inculpatory evidence of themselves? Not plausible. If they had taken the time to mop the floors (which by the way there is not scientific evidence indicating this is so) they would have rinsed out or bleached the bathmat. Ask yourselves which half is missing; top half? bottom half? left side? right side?
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
    Interesting piece, thanks for posting this!

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  16. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggy View Post
    I think that shows the inadequacy of the police department that it took that long. Arrestees point fingers at others all the time. Law enforcement should be equipped to deal with that. Again it is their duty alone to verify they have probable cause to hold a person and to seek evidence of their guilt or innocence...theirs alone. It is irrelevant what type of person lies or squeels or what information may come out of a coersive police interrogation. It is simply irrelevant.
    Blame it all on the corrupt police, right? They were going to detain Patrick for Meredith's murder regardless of what Amanda said ... obviously ... or maybe not. We're not sure why ... but it is not Amanda's fault that she falsely accused an innocent man of murder after two hours of questioning.

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  18. #410
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    Somebody did, the reasoning will have to be supplied by the guilty party.

    Could the 'bathmat shuffle' be an attempt to explain away that evidence on the floors? Did she/they even recognize the print as a footprint?

    Could her bloody/cleaning ears statements been to explain away her blood mixed with Meredith's dna in the bathroom?

    Could they have been pressed for time, or not thinking properly, or intending to come back and take care of the rest? We might not ever know, but all plausible IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggy View Post
    Are you talking about the half a footprint in the bathroom visibly in blood?
    Yes I am. Someone made a footprint in blood, half on the mat and half off the mat. Where did the half that was on the floor disappear to?

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  21. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Blame it all on the corrupt police, right? They were going to detain Patrick for Meredith's murder regardless of what Amanda said ... obviously ... or maybe not. We're not sure why ... but it is not Amanda's fault that she falsely accused an innocent man of murder after two hours of questioning.
    That is really the main debate tactic regarding ALL the evidence... excuses.
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  23. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Blame it all on the corrupt police, right? They were going to detain Patrick for Meredith's murder regardless of what Amanda said ... obviously ... or maybe not. We're not sure why ... but it is not Amanda's fault that she falsely accused an innocent man of murder after two hours of questioning.
    Otto---We have been over and over this. You know we do not believe Amanda did anything so wrong here, as you are suggesting, but we cannot make you see it---just as I cannot make you see that Signore Mignini, as a prosecutor, should uphold the law, not break it with illegal wiretapping of 20 persons. Some character, and he has lived 3 x as long as Amanda...ugh

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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggy View Post
    Hey bloody footprint people: and so you are saying the RS or AK cleaned up half of his footprint but left the other half after meticulously wiping out all other inculpatory evidence of themselves? Not plausible. If they had taken the time to mop the floors (which by the way there is not scientific evidence indicating this is so) they would have rinsed out or bleached the bathmat. Ask yourselves which half is missing; top half? bottom half? left side? right side?
    According to Amanda, she did the bathroom boogie on the mat from the bathroom to her bedroom ... oops, there goes half the bloody footprint. I think I like Amanda's explanation ... it's falls into the same category as Raffaele's explanation for Meredith's DNA on his knife.

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  26. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    Otto---We have been over and over this. You know we do not believe Amanda did anything so wrong here, as you are suggesting, but we cannot make you see it---just as I cannot make you see that Signore Mignini, as a prosecutor, should uphold the law, not break it with illegal wiretapping of 20 persons. Some character, and he has lived 3 x as long as Amanda...ugh
    You're right. I will never see that it is reasonable for Knox to accuse an innocent man of murder after 2 hours of questioning as a witness on Nov 5, and to then let him rot in jail for 2 weeks. If you were the victim of those false allegations, would you see it as reasonable?

    We have a woman that prosecuted the case against Amanda and Raffaele. She upheld the law, and successfuly secured convictions in the murder of Meredith. Good for her!!!

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  28. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    You're right. I will never see that it is reasonable for Knox to accuse an innocent man of murder after 2 hours of questioning as a witness on Nov 5, and to then let him rot in jail for 2 weeks. If you were the victim of those false allegations, would you see it as reasonable?

    We have a woman that prosecuted the case against Amanda and Raffaele. She upheld the law, and successfuly secured convictions in the murder of Meredith. Good for her!!!
    Not so good for her if they are innocent....

  29. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    Oh I read them completely, just amazed that you feel/see it that way.

    1- maybe you should cruise the Cooper and Young murder trials/cases. Every bit of evidence is circumstancial. It would be interesting to see which 'side' of the case you are on there. What about S.Peterson... wasn't that trial held in the US? Where was the actual/direct evidence against him?

    2- What would be the 'agenda' for questioning the verdict of a full trial when over 20 judges have looked at the evidence and found both AK and RS of being involved? What about the jurors with judges on the panel too... were they searching for the TRUTH with the entire body of evidence to look over instead of internet searches? They are perfectly capable of finding the truth IMO.

    3- Bathroom mat print shows there was some type of cleanup. The luminal prints show there was a cleanup. Why would RG 'bolt' after only cleaning some of the evidence? He wouldn't have, that's why. Obviously, to unbiased observers, the staging of the burglary and the partial cleanup show that someone wanted the crime to look 'different' than what actually occured. Who would have reason to do so... . You know who AGAIN. All those pesky pieces of circumstancial evidence sure do pile up.
    1. might do that. Scott Peterson was convicted on circumstantial evidence, sure, and there was more circumstantial evidence against him in that case than there is here. There was more going to his state of mind that occured before the murder as in: hey Amber, my wife passed away and I'm a pathetic widow. You do realize that direct evidence is less likely to be obtained in prosecutions than circumstantial right? If could be watching too many defense attorney pundits on TV - nearly ALL cases are completely circumstantial.

    DIRECT EVIDENCE
    Evidence that stands on its own to prove an alleged fact, such as testimony of a witness who says she saw a defendant pointing a gun at a victim during a robbery. Direct proof of a fact, such as testimony by a witness about what that witness personally saw or heard or did.

    Although completely circumstantial, it greatly depends on how those bricks fit in the wall and how complete the wall is when they are done. There was suffidient history of things he said before he killed her, like that his wife had died :0 Here, we have no bricks to put in the wall that paints AK as a sex crazed psycho orgyist. So that wall falls down. Just like Geragos's wall fell down when he asserted the defense that satanists had done it - no bricks, wall down...rejected...not logical Captain Kirk.

    2. Easy peasy - there is always an agenda when courts give deference to other officers of the court. It's a basic psychological deference and in some systems it must be given to the trial judge. And people don't like to admit they were wrong. A jury with judges on the jury or panel is like making the foreman a PhD and all the other high school drop outs - herd mentality people. This stuff does happen in our country too, don't get me wrong - a critical mass of thinking can have the effect of the truth even when it isn't.

    3. You are mixing the luminol prints and the bath mat print up without defining each and they are different indeed. The luminol prints definitively show there was no clean up because of the clear outline and that they were more likely left by a cleaning substance transfered from the shower area to the floor. If you clean up blood - you smear it around you don't erase it away and leave the unmistakeable print in tact - especially when the clean up immediately follows the crime and the print is not left there for days. I'm going back to look at the bath mat print because there is much there to examine - mostly I've found it to be aggregiously passed off as something it is not...but I'll look more.
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  31. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    According to Amanda, she did the bathroom boogie on the mat from the bathroom to her bedroom ... oops, there goes half the bloody footprint. I think I like Amanda's explanation ... it's falls into the same category as Raffaele's explanation for Meredith's DNA on his knife.
    Was there luminol smear to corroborate her story? A scoot ain't gonna make it invisible to the luminol. Even when someone in the US confesses to murder, it has to be investigated and corroborated.
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  32. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Yes I am. Someone made a footprint in blood, half on the mat and half off the mat. Where did the half that was on the floor disappear to?
    If there is no luminol evidence suggesting that it was there and smeared from the attempt to clean up - then it was never there and someone used these things called calf muscles and ankle ligaments and did not fully put their heel on the floor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    One of the prosecutors illegally wire tapped police and media. I suppose we have to allow for the possibility that this same prosecutor could illegally wire tapped police and media again.

    Amanda demonstrated that she does not care about how her actions impact others, and that she is quite comfortable with the knowledge that someone's life was destroyed because of her actions and statements. We know that when someone is suffering as a direct result of her actions, she will not do anything to assist. It's quite likely that Amanda's moral compass is permanently skewed and that she acted this way on more occassions than the ones that have been widely publicized.

    So ... we have the possibility that the prosecutor will illegally wiretap someone and the possibility that Amanda will continue to selfishly, and without moral conscience, harm others.
    Actually, there is evidence that AK was NOT comfortable with wrongly accusing PL. The evidence is there in black and white in her attempt to recant the accusation without admitting to perjury, in her writing that her memories of PL with MK were "more unreal than real."

    Did she go far enough? No. But perhaps she assumed ILE would act competently and not take 2 weeks to check on PL's alibi. Reasonable assumption, but ultimately a wrong one.

    Why you hold a frightened 20-year-old in a foreign country to a higher moral standard than you hold Italian police and prosecutors is a wonder to me.

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  35. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChasingMoxie View Post
    In her written statement, didn't AK herself admit that the visions of Patrick at the cottage seemed more like a dream? I think I recall something like this, which in my mind bolsters the argument that her statement was created by the questioner's suggestion.

    Or am I getting my instances confused?
    There were several statements and I can't keep them all straight.

    But, yes, in the "gift statement" she said her memories were more "unreal than real", i.e., more like a dream.

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  37. #422
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    Scott Peterson was convicted on circumstantial evidence, sure, and there was more circumstantial evidence against him in that case than there is here. There was more going to his state of mind that occured before the murder as in: hey Amber, my wife passed away and I'm a pathetic widow.(posted by ziggy)---
    Yes, I think this is important to remember, the motive and actions so much more obvious in the SP case, as opposed to AK supposedly upset over bathroom cleaning arguments, and willing to commit a brutal sex murder when she was in the throes of a brand new love affair.

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  39. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    It seems that some people are willing to overlook Amanda's horrendous lies, and her complete absence of empathy and compassion when someone is suffering as a direct result of her actions. I would not want anyone like Amanda anywhere near me, my family, or anyone I cared about. I feel the very same way about Joran van der Sloot.

    You've mention duress a couple of times. How was Amanda under duress when she, sitting alone, asked for paper and pen, and then wrote a statement confirming her accusations against Patrick? How was Amanda under duress a day, or 3 days, or even 14 days later such that she could not tell investigators that she told a big fat lie about Patrick?
    Comparing AK to JVDS is absolutely absurd. We know from surveillance tapes that JVDS killed Flores with his bare hands. We also have on tape his account of dumping Holloway's body at sea. Further, there is his extortion of money from NH's parents.

    By contrast AK blew off a temp job in Germany (not nice, but not unusual) and may have been a sloppy housekeeper. If you want to accept the trial testimony, then perhaps she obstructed justice by cleaning up after RG murdered MK (though we still don't know how she did so without smearing the blood spots).

    And yes, in a night of weakness she agreed with LE's insistence that PL was involved in the murder. This was certainly wrong, but it wasn't AK who kept PL locked up for 2 weeks when they could have checked in his alibi in 2 hours.

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  41. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggy View Post
    So how does the knife you believe is the murder weapon or at least involved, fit in here? If AK decided to put him up to it at that time and it wasn't pre-planned...
    Good question. And that's the problem: NO scenario where AK and RS are among the killers makes any sense whatsoever.

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  43. #425
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    And remember, as my law professors who consist of seated judges and working attorneys say, maybe they didn't have very good lawyers. That's a possibility too in addition to the personality, tonal quality of voice etc. of the defense attorneys and whether or not the jury even listened to them, or if they had already made up their minds. MUCH more than evidence goes into a verdict - much more than we would like but it's real life.

    I mention this because of the slanted press and the fact that I have no idea what it would take to bring in juror misconduct in Italy.

    There is a high probability that these reports tainted the jury pool.
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