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  1. #1
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    Ramsey Project Rebuttal (Non Intruder Posters Only)

    Hi Everyone,

    I'll be using this thread to ask you to help me with the rebuttal to the I.D. program.

    The first thing I need is the exact quote from the autopsy report concerning the chronic vaginal trauma. Not sure if that is the wording or not.

    I use to be able to remember the exact wording of everything AND I had all this stuff at my fingertips.

    A divorce, a move, and old age has changed me I'm afraid.

    In fact if there is anything else solid that points to prior abuse of JonBenet please post it here.

    Thanks,
    Tricia
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tricia View Post
    Hi Everyone,

    I'll be using this thread to ask you to help me with the rebuttal to the I.D. program.

    The first thing I need is the exact quote from the autopsy report concerning the chronic vaginal trauma. Not sure if that is the wording or not.

    I use to be able to remember the exact wording of everything AND I had all this stuff at my fingertips.

    A divorce, a move, and old age has changed me I'm afraid.

    In fact if there is anything else solid that points to prior abuse of JonBenet please post it here.

    Thanks,
    Tricia
    I know just the man to do it! Here you are:

    "A 1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1x1 cm hymeneal orifice. The hymen itself is represented by a rim of tissue extending clockwise from between the 2:00 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and the distal right vaginal wall."

    "Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. The smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen."

    In a September 1999 study for the Medical Journal Family Medicine titled "Genital Findings in Prepubertal Girls Evaluated for Sexual Abuse: A Different Perspective on Hymeneal Measurements," Dr. Perry Pugno said:

    "Girls with no definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 2.3 mm and in general showed an increase of approximately 1 mm per year of age. Girls with definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 9.0 mm and no significant variance with age. Correcting for age differences, the transhymenal diameter was highly significant as a differentiating factor (F=1079, P<.001). When compared against the criterion standard, the transhymenal measurement is 99% specific and 79% sensitive as a screening tool."

    In his book, Det. Thomas states:

    "In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation - that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed. There were no dissenting opinions among them on the issue, and they firmly rejected any possibility that the trauma to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or masturbation. We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries 'consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse' ' There was chronic abuse'. . . 'Past violation of the vagina'. . .'Evidence of both acute and injury and chronic sexual abuse.' In other words, the doctors were saying it had happened before."

    Thomas does not name these experts. But other sources, including Schiller's book, do name them. Their names read as follows:

    -Dr. James Monteleone, Professor of Pediatrics at St. Louis University School of Medicine (and Director of Child Protection Cardinal Glennon Children's Hospital);

    -Dr. David Jones, Professor of Preventative Medicine and Biometrics at University of Colorado Health Sciences Center;

    -Dr. Ronald Wright, former Medical Examiner, Cook County Illinois;

    -Dr. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida;

    -and Dr. John McCann, Clinical Professor of Medicine, Department. of Pediatrics at University of California at Davis.

    McCann was contacted in mid-1997 to give a report for the police department. His findings were written down in the police reports and later transcribed by Bonita Sauer, a Denver legal secretary:

    "According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.
    "There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia." He also talked about the injury from that night, saying, "the injury appeared to have been caused by a relatively small, very firm object which, due to the area of bruising, had made very forceful contact not only with the hymen, but also with the tissues surrounding the hymen. McCann believed that the object was forcefully jabbed in – not just shoved in. Although the bruised area would indicate something about the size of a finger nail, he did not believe it was a finger, because of the well demarcated edges of the bruise indicating an object much firmer than a finger. McCann also noted that in children of this age group the labia, or vaginal lips, remain closed until literally manually separated. In order for there to be an injury to the hymen without injuring the labia, the labia would have to be manually separated before the object was inserted. The examination also indicated that the assault was done while the child was still alive because of the redness in the surrounding tissue and blood in the area. McCann stated that this injury would have been very painful because the area of the injury as indicated by the bruise was at the base of the hymen were most of the nerve endings are located. Such an injury would have caused a six year old child to scream or yell. The doctor also stated that he assumed the object did not have jagged edges because there were no evidence of tears in the bruised area." To qualify his report, Dr. McCann explained "the term 'chronic abuse' meant only that it was 'repeated', but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of 'prior abuse'. The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior." He explained that the most common perpetrators of sexual abuse are those with whom the child has close contact with, usually a family member.


    Dr. Robert Kirschner, from the University of Chicago, Department of Pathology, weighed in as well. In a 1997 article for Vanity Fair magazine written by Ann Bardach, he stated:

    "The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation." "If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, her father would have been arrested"

    In 2006, FOX News did an interview with Holly Smith. At the time of JonBenet's murder, she was the head of the Boulder County Sex Abuse team. In the interview, she talked about what she found.

    "There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith....While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions. Hoping to zero in on a possibility, Smith said that by the third day of the investigation, she'd found fecal staining on every pair of JonBenet's panties.

    Will that do for a start?
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  3. #3
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    hope this helps

    On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule. Inside the vestibule of the vagina and along the distal vaginal wall is reddish hyperemia. This hyperemia is circumferential and perhaps more noticeable on the right side and posteriorly. The hyperemia also appears to extend just inside the vaginal orifice. A 1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1 x 1 cm hymeneal orifice. The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen. On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violent discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three-eighths of an inch. Incision into the underlying subcutaneous tissue discloses no hemorrhage. A minimal amount of semiliquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault.No recent or remote anal or other perineal trauma is identified.



    from crimeshots taken from their autops transcript. Hears the link, mods feel free to remove if it against the fourm ruls to post other fourm links
    Last edited by smurf86; 04-02-2011 at 04:22 PM. Reason: unfinished sentance
    I say what i mean please or offend

  4. #4
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    The following is with respect to chronic abuse:


    Despite the fact that a panel of pediatric experts concluded that JonBenet was a victim of long-term sexual abuse, current District Attorney Mary Lacy publicly announced in 2003 that she believed the little girl was murdered by an intruder.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,238946,00.html

    "In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation - that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed. There were no dissenting opinions among them on the issue, and they firmly rejected any possibility that the trauma to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or masturbation. We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries 'consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse' 'There was chronic abuse'. . .'Past violation of the vagina'. . .'Evidence of both acute and injury and chronic sexual abuse.' In other words, the doctors were saying it had happened before. One expert summed it up well when he said the injuries were not consistent with sexual assault, but with a child who was being physically abused."
    Such findings would lead an investigator to conclude that the person who inflicted the abuse was someone with frequent or unquestioned access to the child, and that limited the amount of suspects.
    Every statistic in the book pointed to someone inside the family.
    Steve Thomas, JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation p. 253

    Dr. David Jones, professor of preventative medicine and biometrics at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center; Dr. James Monteleone, professor of pediatrics at St. Louis University School of medicine and director of child protection for Cardinal Glennon Children's Hospital; and Dr. John McCann, a clinical professor of medicine at the University of California at Davis. --
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 563

    Q. Now, tell me who the members were of what you call the blue ribbon panel of pediatric experts, give me their names, please.
    A. I think the FBI recommended --
    Q. Just their names, not the recommendation?
    A. -- and tried to -- and he participated, was a doctor from California, Dr. John McCann
    Deposition of Steven Thomas, September 21, 2001

    Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.
    http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jonaff9.htm

    The purpose of this project was to evaluate the transhymenal diameter measurement from a somewhat different perspective, specifically from within a population of children referred for examinations for suspected sexual molestation. The main question, therefore, became, "Is the horizontal transhymenal diameter of prepubertal girls, with definitive evidence of penetration trauma to the genitalia, significantly different from that of alleged victims who show no definitive physical signs of acute or chronic penetration trauma to genital tissues?"

    Upper limit of "normal" transhymenal diameters as included in the Informational Guide to the California Medical Protocol for the Examination of Sexual Assault and Child Sexual Molestation Victims:
    Infancy to 2y: 4mm
    2-5y: 5mm
    6-9y: 9mm
    10y to puberty: 15mm

    The graphs below summarize the results of horizontal transhymenal measurements using the supine labial separation technique among prepubertal girls selected by the presence or absence of definitive physical signs of genital trauma. Girls with no definitive signs of trauma (negative examinations) demonstrated a mean transhymenal diameter of 2.3 mm (average age, 5.0 years). Prepubertal girls whose examinations revealed the presence of definitive physical signs of genital trauma (positive examinations) exhibited a mean horizontal transhymenal measurement of 9.0 mm (average age, 6.2 years). Despite correcting for the difference in average age of the 2 populations, the difference in mean transhymenal diameter was highly significant

    When compared with the results of other investigators' transhymenal measurements for prepubertal girls selected for nonabuse, the girls with negative examinations in this study exhibited similar values. For example, in the age group of 5 to 8 years, this study population of girls with negative examinations exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 3.3 mm compared with the mean of 4.2 mm of the study population of McCann et al. This supports the perspective that the population with negative examinations is a valid and reliable representation of "normal" genital anatomy.
    http://archfami.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/8/5/403

    Any wonder why expert after expert concluded that Jonbenet was a victim of chronic sexual abuse?



    Last edited by cynic; 04-02-2011 at 04:48 PM.
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Dr. Robert Kirschner, from the University of Chicago, Department of Pathology, weighed in as well. In a 1997 article for Vanity Fair magazine written by Ann Bardach, he stated:

    "The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation." "If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, her father would have been arrested"
    Here is the source for that qoute, Dave.
    Dr. Cyril Wecht, a well known forensic pathologist, has no doubt that the 45-pound child was molested. "If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, the father would have been arrested," he has said. The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation.”
    http://www.bardachreports.com/articles/v_19971000.html
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)

  6. #6
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    Here is link to the autopsy report that is from a relatively neutral source (Denver Post)
    http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon124.htm
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)

  7. #7
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    Among the more notable police officers who investigated the Ramsey murder was former detective Steve Thomas, a veteran police officer who had received over a hundred commendations. Thomas, who was logged in as having worked more overtime hours on the case than any other police officer, resigned nearly two years into the investigation and publicly announced that he believed JonBenet's mother, Patsy Ramsey, was responsible for the little girl's death.

    Although authorities never officially commented on Thomas’ argument, many law enforcement sources have confirmed that Thomas was merely revealing the conclusion of the Boulder Police Department’s investigation. After former District Attorney Alex Hunter convened a grand jury to investigate the case further in 1998, the law enforcement community’s suspicion of Patsy Ramsey increased, but Hunter decided not to file charges because he did not believe there was enough evidence to obtain a winning verdict.

    Despite the fact that a panel of pediatric experts concluded that JonBenet was a victim of long-term sexual abuse, current District Attorney Mary Lacy publicly announced in 2003 that she believed the little girl was murdered by an intruder. Her theory stems from the fact that minuscule particles of foreign DNA were found in JonBenet’s underpants — DNA that renowned forensic expert Henry Lee believes is the result of contamination and totally unrelated to the crime.

    Lacy was so convinced an intruder committed the crime that she arrested an otherwise innocent man earlier this year and charged him with the murder. Only a few days after extraditing 41-year-old John Mark Karr from Thailand, forensic tests prompted Lacy to drop charges against the man, leaving the case cold once again.

    The most revealing fact that came from the Karr debacle was that there were several details in his arrest warrant that didn’t add up. Lacy’s primary reason for arresting Karr was that he allegedly had inside knowledge of the case that only top investigators and the killer could know. But by the time the warrant was made public, it turned out that the "inside knowledge" had been widely published in local newspapers and supermarket tabloids.

    As a result, Lacy quickly came under fire by a number of law enforcement officials and media commentators. Among the many officials who quietly expressed criticism were federal agents who have repeatedly advised Boulder investigators that they suspect Patsy Ramsey and do not subscribe to the "intruder theory." Their suspicions stem from years of analysis and comparison of Patsy’s handwriting with the text and handwriting of the three-page ransom note found in the Ramsey home.

    Although the Boulder Police Department and former DA Hunter did an effective job investigating JonBenet’s murder, Lacy’s blind faith that the crime was committed by an intruder now makes it virtually impossible for the case to move forward under her leadership.

    The FBI is in a position to assign highly skilled investigators who have spent decades specializing in child murders to JonBenet’s case. Federal prosecutors who have the financial and legal backing of the United States government can effectively consider a long-term strategy that will not be impeded by local taxpayers or politicians.

    By Jeffrey Scott Shapiro
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,238946,00.html
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)

  8. #8
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    There is this from Dr. Cyril Wecht.
    At 6:15:
    Well guess what? The injuries are for the most part old, they're chronic.
    A good part of the hymen is, is absent, and that's an old, old phenomenon, it's been there for a while.
    Then the pathologist report, and I'm taking it right from the autopsy report.
    He reports, superficial erosion of the vaginal mucosa, that's the lining, the delicate lining of the vaginal canal, at the 7 o'clock position, and that's been there for a while, that's not acute.
    And then he finds microscopically, chronic inflammation, under the microscope.
    That means it's been there for days, and could be longer than days, but it's not fresh.
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wJYiEN1OnI&NR=1[/ame]
    Last edited by cynic; 04-02-2011 at 06:31 PM.
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    I know just the man to do it! Here you are:

    "A 1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1x1 cm hymeneal orifice. The hymen itself is represented by a rim of tissue extending clockwise from between the 2:00 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and the distal right vaginal wall."

    "Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. The smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen."

    In a September 1999 study for the Medical Journal Family Medicine titled "Genital Findings in Prepubertal Girls Evaluated for Sexual Abuse: A Different Perspective on Hymeneal Measurements," Dr. Perry Pugno said:

    "Girls with no definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 2.3 mm and in general showed an increase of approximately 1 mm per year of age. Girls with definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 9.0 mm and no significant variance with age. Correcting for age differences, the transhymenal diameter was highly significant as a differentiating factor (F=1079, P<.001). When compared against the criterion standard, the transhymenal measurement is 99% specific and 79% sensitive as a screening tool."

    In his book, Det. Thomas states:

    "In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation - that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed. There were no dissenting opinions among them on the issue, and they firmly rejected any possibility that the trauma to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or masturbation. We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries 'consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse' ' There was chronic abuse'. . . 'Past violation of the vagina'. . .'Evidence of both acute and injury and chronic sexual abuse.' In other words, the doctors were saying it had happened before."

    Thomas does not name these experts. But other sources, including Schiller's book, do name them. Their names read as follows:

    -Dr. James Monteleone, Professor of Pediatrics at St. Louis University School of Medicine (and Director of Child Protection Cardinal Glennon Children's Hospital);

    -Dr. David Jones, Professor of Preventative Medicine and Biometrics at University of Colorado Health Sciences Center;

    -Dr. Ronald Wright, former Medical Examiner, Cook County Illinois;

    -Dr. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida;

    -and Dr. John McCann, Clinical Professor of Medicine, Department. of Pediatrics at University of California at Davis.

    McCann was contacted in mid-1997 to give a report for the police department. His findings were written down in the police reports and later transcribed by Bonita Sauer, a Denver legal secretary:

    "According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.
    "There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia." He also talked about the injury from that night, saying, "the injury appeared to have been caused by a relatively small, very firm object which, due to the area of bruising, had made very forceful contact not only with the hymen, but also with the tissues surrounding the hymen. McCann believed that the object was forcefully jabbed in – not just shoved in. Although the bruised area would indicate something about the size of a finger nail, he did not believe it was a finger, because of the well demarcated edges of the bruise indicating an object much firmer than a finger. McCann also noted that in children of this age group the labia, or vaginal lips, remain closed until literally manually separated. In order for there to be an injury to the hymen without injuring the labia, the labia would have to be manually separated before the object was inserted. The examination also indicated that the assault was done while the child was still alive because of the redness in the surrounding tissue and blood in the area. McCann stated that this injury would have been very painful because the area of the injury as indicated by the bruise was at the base of the hymen were most of the nerve endings are located. Such an injury would have caused a six year old child to scream or yell. The doctor also stated that he assumed the object did not have jagged edges because there were no evidence of tears in the bruised area." To qualify his report, Dr. McCann explained "the term 'chronic abuse' meant only that it was 'repeated', but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of 'prior abuse'. The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior." He explained that the most common perpetrators of sexual abuse are those with whom the child has close contact with, usually a family member.


    Dr. Robert Kirschner, from the University of Chicago, Department of Pathology, weighed in as well. In a 1997 article for Vanity Fair magazine written by Ann Bardach, he stated:

    "The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation." "If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, her father would have been arrested"

    In 2006, FOX News did an interview with Holly Smith. At the time of JonBenet's murder, she was the head of the Boulder County Sex Abuse team. In the interview, she talked about what she found.

    "There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith....While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions. Hoping to zero in on a possibility, Smith said that by the third day of the investigation, she'd found fecal staining on every pair of JonBenet's panties.

    Will that do for a start?
    No, I'm sorry. This is just to vague.KIDDING LOL. WOW. PERFECT. Thank you.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    Among the more notable police officers who investigated the Ramsey murder was former detective Steve Thomas, a veteran police officer who had received over a hundred commendations. Thomas, who was logged in as having worked more overtime hours on the case than any other police officer, resigned nearly two years into the investigation and publicly announced that he believed JonBenet's mother, Patsy Ramsey, was responsible for the little girl's death.

    Although authorities never officially commented on Thomas’ argument, many law enforcement sources have confirmed that Thomas was merely revealing the conclusion of the Boulder Police Department’s investigation. After former District Attorney Alex Hunter convened a grand jury to investigate the case further in 1998, the law enforcement community’s suspicion of Patsy Ramsey increased, but Hunter decided not to file charges because he did not believe there was enough evidence to obtain a winning verdict.

    Despite the fact that a panel of pediatric experts concluded that JonBenet was a victim of long-term sexual abuse, current District Attorney Mary Lacy publicly announced in 2003 that she believed the little girl was murdered by an intruder. Her theory stems from the fact that minuscule particles of foreign DNA were found in JonBenet’s underpants — DNA that renowned forensic expert Henry Lee believes is the result of contamination and totally unrelated to the crime.

    Lacy was so convinced an intruder committed the crime that she arrested an otherwise innocent man earlier this year and charged him with the murder. Only a few days after extraditing 41-year-old John Mark Karr from Thailand, forensic tests prompted Lacy to drop charges against the man, leaving the case cold once again.

    The most revealing fact that came from the Karr debacle was that there were several details in his arrest warrant that didn’t add up. Lacy’s primary reason for arresting Karr was that he allegedly had inside knowledge of the case that only top investigators and the killer could know. But by the time the warrant was made public, it turned out that the "inside knowledge" had been widely published in local newspapers and supermarket tabloids.

    As a result, Lacy quickly came under fire by a number of law enforcement officials and media commentators. Among the many officials who quietly expressed criticism were federal agents who have repeatedly advised Boulder investigators that they suspect Patsy Ramsey and do not subscribe to the "intruder theory." Their suspicions stem from years of analysis and comparison of Patsy’s handwriting with the text and handwriting of the three-page ransom note found in the Ramsey home.

    Although the Boulder Police Department and former DA Hunter did an effective job investigating JonBenet’s murder, Lacy’s blind faith that the crime was committed by an intruder now makes it virtually impossible for the case to move forward under her leadership.

    The FBI is in a position to assign highly skilled investigators who have spent decades specializing in child murders to JonBenet’s case. Federal prosecutors who have the financial and legal backing of the United States government can effectively consider a long-term strategy that will not be impeded by local taxpayers or politicians.

    By Jeffrey Scott Shapiro
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,238946,00.html
    Cynic, Joeskidbeck, and Superdave. THANK YOU SO MUCH.

    This is just one small piece of the rebuttal. I will whiddle this down a bit and start the rebuttal with the comment about JonBenet's prior molestation being "tabloid."

    As you can see it is going to be a big project. To say the least.
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  11. #11
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    Oh brother.........there are also panel of experts that say there was no prior sexual abuse including JonBenet's own pediatrician. Alex Hunter's wife is a pediatrician---I don't recall him commenting one way or the other on prior sexual abuse, and you can bet he discussed that with his wife. Big-mouth Wecht went public with statements and wrote the first book on the case without doing proper research. He didn't have access to tissue samples, although he stated it would be nice to have those. He jumped to conclusions and contradicted his own statements in another book, that to come to a proper conclusion, everything a good pathologist needed included tissue samples.

    There is no doubt JonBenet was penetrated by an object the night of the murder.... the study presented above talks about mm of the vaginal opening---it doesn't take a genius to figure out hers was penetrated---it would be larger than considered the norm as a result.

    There is no doubt Steve put heart and soul in the investigation---going down the wrong path, and at times even pushed the ethical boundaries. (ie: his covert meeting with what's her face from Vanity Fair). The reality is he was an undercover narc who may have been good in that aspect of his job----but he did not have experience in a murder case, and not unlike some in law enforcement once he made up his mind about the Ramseys he was bound and determined to get them. Anyone can pick and choose experts---that's what malpractice cases are all about.

    At this point in time, I feel it's impossible to prove prior sexual abuse. There's other experts that will refute the handpicked experts that say there was prior abuse. And some of them are blowing smoke---not unlike Wecht---coming to conclusions without having access to tissue samples.

  12. #12
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    There will always be experts with rebuttals to the evidence. That's perfectly OK. My problem with AJ's show was that she only presented Ramsey spin to a public that may never have seen/heard the real evidence. Once all the lies presented have had the light shown on them, I think it's quite possible the public will be able to look at the factual evidence of molestation and arrive at their own conclusion to it's validaty.
    "This Time We Get it Right!"

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    Here is the source for that qoute, Dave.
    Dr. Cyril Wecht, a well known forensic pathologist, has no doubt that the 45-pound child was molested. "If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, the father would have been arrested," he has said. The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation.”
    http://www.bardachreports.com/articles/v_19971000.html
    Always a pleasure doing business, Cynic.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tricia View Post
    Cynic, Joeskidbeck, and Superdave. THANK YOU SO MUCH.

    This is just one small piece of the rebuttal. I will whiddle this down a bit and start the rebuttal with the comment about JonBenet's prior molestation being "tabloid."

    As you can see it is going to be a big project. To say the least.
    The only kind I know!
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maikai View Post
    Oh brother.........there are also panel of experts that say there was no prior sexual abuse including JonBenet's own pediatrician.
    I'd like to know who this "panel" is you're talking about. First I've heard of it. And even then, it wouldn't surprise me if the defense could dig up some jerk in a lab coat to naysay the prosecution.

    And as for JB's own pediatrician, we've been over that six ways to Sunday. Not only did he not LOOK, by his own admission, he was close friends with them to boot. "In awe of the Ramseys" I believe it was.

    There is no doubt JonBenet was penetrated by an object the night of the murder.... the study presented above talks about mm of the vaginal opening---it doesn't take a genius to figure out hers was penetrated---it would be larger than considered the norm as a result.
    I don't think you quite understand. It would be one thing for it to be larger due to TEARING. JB's hymen was not torn. It was WORN over time.

    There is no doubt Steve put heart and soul in the investigation---going down the wrong path, and at times even pushed the ethical boundaries. (ie: his covert meeting with what's her face from Vanity Fair).
    I'll side with a cop who does something over a DA who does NOTHING.

    At this point in time, I feel it's impossible to prove prior sexual abuse.
    I'm sure you do feel that way. For some people, it's impossible to prove it without a victim statement. Unfortunately, that's not possible here, and I can't help but wonder if maybe that's the key here.

    But that's not the point here. The point is that no attempt was made to present ANY of what we have listed.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

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