04-07-2011, 11:16 AM #1
After I saw a post from SuperDave in the Caylee forum, comparing JonBenet's case, I decided to pop over here.
I don't know very much about the Jonbenet case at all. When it happened in 96' I barely spoke English, but I remember seeing tidbits on the news, JonBenet dressed up, makeup - and some talk about how LE fumbled the case.
I tried to read here, but I'm dizzy from the information.
Where can I go to read the facts of this case? Where should I start?
Thank you lots.
04-07-2011, 11:22 AM #2Registered User
...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98
- Join Date
- Sep 2003
04-07-2011, 11:27 AM #3
Oh wow...the CandyRose link has the 911 call and everything!
Thank you so very much, Toltec.
Hmm, well, the 911 is interesting.
The ransom note is a novella. Sheesh.
Thanks again for the great link.
Last edited by Turnadot; 04-07-2011 at 11:36 AM.
04-07-2011, 12:37 PM #4
I'm "new" to the JonBenet case as well. I was in high school when this happened so I didn't pay too much attention to it.
I'm glad you started this thread and I hope we get some more help with this!
04-07-2011, 01:37 PM #5
I've read the ransom note over a dozen times and I can't get over it. It's just too much, literally. What kidnapper writes out a three page ransom note like that, and asked for an exact sum? Not saying a kidnapper couldn't have, I don't know, but it just seems so odd to me, and the phrasing. I don't really know what to make of it right now besides: bizarre.
Also I find it strange their daughter was taken, yet they allow their son to go off with a family friend to stay for a while. Maybe it's just me, but my child would have been joined to my hip that day.
Still reading and haven't really formed an opinion, but there's something nagging at me about the early days of the investigation, besides the police blundering.
04-07-2011, 01:47 PM #6
You may want to read "The Bonita Papers" as well. This is a first draft written by a secretary named Bonita, allegedly, who worked with a lawyer who was consulting with the BPD in the first year or two after the murder. She is said to have had access to many of the case files because of her position; she was taking notes from those files to write a book--allegedly. She sent her nephew a copy of what she'd written, for some reason I'm not clear about, and he sold the info to the tabs without her permission--allegedly. We don't really have many resources to confirm or deny this story, but it would fit with the tabs' early publication of case evidence and info that was fairly accurate, shocking for the tabs especially.
At any rate, the info in "The Bonita Papers" is informative and much of it confirmed through the years. There are typos, etc., as any first draft will have, and a few of the details ended up not being accurate, we now know, but lots of it is spot on and has info not as well documented in other sources, like the issue of prior molestation and the experts' actual opinions on that. If what Bonita wrote came from the actual case files--and it does appear largely genuine and mostly accurate--it's a profound look at the case early in the investigation.
You can find a copy of this at Tricia's other forum on the JB case, Forums For Justice: [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4502"]The Bonita Papers - Forums For Justice[/ame]
Also, we've put up some case documents, transcripts, autopsy and crime scene photos there, as well, in a case library, if you would like to check that out. It's not nearly as extensive as that of ACandyRose, of course, but we do have some basic materials that are easy to get to because we don't have so many, like the transcripts of law enforcement interviews with the Ramseys, the transcripts of the depositions of the Ramseys taken during lawsuits, etc. You can find those here: [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12"]Ramsey Murder Case Library - Forums For Justice[/ame]
As far as books for reading materials you might like to check out, ACandyRose has a good list of those. I'd recommend Perfect Murder, Perfect Town and Steve Thomas' book Inside the JonBenet Ramsey Murder Investigation as basic info books that are mostly accurate, though PMPT does have some dated and inaccurate info, which has come to light in the years since.
Finally, in the public JBR forum, there are some stickies at the top which have some profoundly brilliant case studies and experiments on critical evidence in the case, particularly the ransom note and a model of the Bloomies underwear found on the victim, done by a member who has details and photos that completely lay out the lies Patsy Ramsey told in Atlanta, 2000, during an interview with Boulder investigators about the huge panties. (See my avatar, taken from a photo of the experiment.) You can find that forum and the stickies here: [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6"]Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum - Forums For Justice[/ame]
The problem you're going to have reading up on this case is that it's been ongoing for 14+ years. Team Ramsey have spun many tales of intruders, faux evidence, and misleading DNA artifact as red herring in that time; the prosecution has been thwarted by the very prosecutors who should have been working for the People, rather than the Ramseys. So the amount of misdirection and smoke and mirrors is astounding and makes the case very difficult to follow at this point. The arrest of John Mark Karr by Mary Lacy is a prime example of how far Team Ramsey would go to exonerate the Ramseys, in spite of all the evidence against them. And have no doubt that Mary Lacy and Alex Hunter, both DAs in this case for the first 12 years of the investigation, are Team Ramsey and have been from Day One, in my opinion.
What you cannot rely on are TV programs about this case; Michael Tracey, Lou Smit, and Team Ramsey have produced so many of these farces, manufactured so many "stranger intruders" depending on non-evidence through the years, that anyone who believes the public face put on by the Ramseys has a long catalog of intruder suspects to support that. The problem is that none of the evidence they pull out, including that precious "touch" DNA, ever leads to any of these suspects. It's always based on pure speculation, often terribly exploitative of the mentally ill or deceased who cannot defend themselves or sue, and the greatest desire to get a slice of the fame pie while making money defending the well-crafted public image of the JOB Ramseys.
In reality, the case is ultimately about the ransom note and the prior molestation, in my opinion: look to the autopsy results, which clearly prove the child was being molested before the night she was murdered, and the language and writing of Patsy Ramsey mirrored in the ransom note. Then ask Team Ramsey to explain why Patsy Ramsey would have written a ransom note for an intruder, and how that intruder was able to access and molest the child before that night without anyone noticing, then return to do the same and murder her, as well, while her family slept nearby?
Add in all the discrepancies in the Ramseys' ever-changing stories, lies to law enforcement investigators they are on the record telling, stonewalling the investigation from the day the body was found, and much more obstruction of the investigation by Team Ramsey, and it's fairly clear what happened to JonBenet Ramsey.
In the end, this case is as much about the corruption of our justice system as it is about the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. If O.J. Simpson was a wake up call about the problems with jury nullification diverting justice, the Ramseys are the next chapter: how prosecutors can be influenced by money and power to bury even a child murder case.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by KoldKase; 04-07-2011 at 02:09 PM.
04-07-2011, 02:15 PM #7
Whoa, koldkase, thank you so much.
I've started the Bonita papers and I'm pretty much glued to the screen. And I'll check out the books you've recommended.
The Forums for Justice is an excellent resource!!
I'm in awe at the dedication of the people there.
04-07-2011, 02:20 PM #8
Welcome to the JonBenet forum Turnadot and scout35! I was going to suggest reading the Bonita Papers but KK did an excellent job! Please let us know if we can be of any help."This Time We Get it Right!"
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase
04-07-2011, 02:26 PM #9
KoldKase that was just an awesome write-up I have read both the books but never knew about the Bonita Papers.
Thank You I can't believe in all the years I have lurked around these parts I hadn't seen those before
I am off to print and read up on those.
04-07-2011, 06:10 PM #10
Still reading the Bonita Papers, and I'm sorry, but: The Boulder police department had been negotiating for months with the attorneys for the Ramseys to schedule their official interrogation. The attorneys had demanded that the interviews be at the same time, that they not exceed 90 minutes that all previous statements by the Ramseys and others to the police be made available and that Peter Hofstrom of the Boulder D.A.’s office be present. On April 30, over four months after JonBenet's death, the long awaited interview with John and Patsy by the police department finally occurred.
I felt a jolt of anger when I read that.
Maybe I'm too stupid to get it, but their child is murdered and they make demands before they will sit with LE? Yes, LE thought the Ramsey's did it - and? The Ramsey's should have sat with LE ASAP and opened their life to them to help.
04-07-2011, 06:40 PM #11"This Time We Get it Right!"
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase
04-07-2011, 09:43 PM #12
Now multiply that jolt of anger times 14 years of even worse obstruction of justice into the murder of their child, and you have an idea of why some of us can't let this just go the way of other unsolved murder cases.
These people flaunted their guilt and mocked the justice system. Not only that, they deliberately incriminated so many innocent people to cover up their own guilt, in my opinion.
There are few figures in the history of true crime in this country who will be remembered as more diabolical or immoral than the Ramseys, IN MY OPINION.
04-07-2011, 10:00 PM #13
Someone needs to make a study guide or a syllabus or something for the newbies to follow along. lol
So much to read!
04-07-2011, 10:35 PM #14Registered User
THIS time, we get it RIGHT!
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This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.
04-08-2011, 04:30 AM #15
I'm reading Patsy's interview with the BPD right now, and what strikes me so far, is that - and someone correct me if I'm wrong - but they ask her about any suspicions she has of Fleet White and she says:
PR: Well, yes I, I have, um, and only because of some erratic behavior that, that they exhibited um shortly after uh, you know, we found JonBenet. Uh, I mean, there, there were a couple, two, three incidents and I know everyone was traumatized incredibly that morning, but they just acted differently than any of our other friends, you know, uh and it, it, you know, I mean, God, you know, I hate to, I, I hate to think, let myself think that, because those are, they’re friends of ours and uh, but they just acted strangely, you know.
So far, Patsy strikes me as a lady who had a mind like a steel trap and a selective memory. Just reading her interview is chilling, IMO. I can see why the BPD suspected her.
I realise I'm new to all this and could be way off base.
PR: And I uh, screamed for John. He was up in our bedroom still and he came running down and uh, I told him that there was a note that said she had been kidnapped. And uh, uh, I think he, he said, I said, ‘What should I do. What should I do,’ or something and he said, ‘Call the police,’ and I think somewhere, I remember I said something about, you know, check Burke or something and I think he ran back and checked burke and I ran back down the stairs and then he came downstairs. He was just in his underwear and he uh, took the note and I remember him being down hunched on the floor read, with all three pages out like that reading it and uh, and he said, ‘Call 911’ or ‘Call the police,’ or something and then I did. I called them and uh, and then I called the Whites and the Fernies and told them that she had been kidnapped or said come over quickly or something and they came over and the policeman came and uh, then the Whites and the Fernies were there and uh . . .Oh, I think the policeman was asking, you know, he kind of like, I think he kind of got us (inaudible) in the sun room or something.
OK, so her husband doesn't pick the papers off the floor to read? I'm really confused by that. It sounds like a lie to add weight to the story. After calling 911, she calls friends to rush over? Why? That just doesn't jive. I know everyone is different, but I'd have got my other child out of bed and huddled together in the living room, ransom note in hand, until LE arrived. I would not be calling friends over ASAP like it's a social gathering. I'd have been way too hysterical to think about who I needed to "invite". Just seems...off to me.
Another thing, she stepped over the note, then turned around to read it?
PR: Cause I went down to the bottom and turned around and read it, you know, like kind of leaned over it looking at it.
TT: Okay. So, it, as it was laid out and you look, you’re standing on the bottom stair or the front . . .
PR: On the floor, yeah.
TT: . . .your looking at it, was it laid out from left to right like you would normally . . .
TT: . . .read a book or something?
PR: Yeah, um hum.
TT: Okay. Um, at that point in time, do you have to step on the note or did you step over it when you came down?
PR: I probably stepped over it.
Last edited by Turnadot; 04-08-2011 at 05:28 AM.