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Thread: The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #5

  1. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooogrit View Post
    Well we do not really know if it was the perfect crime, I mean the forensics could be telling. I also think that there are areas that have been rumored that leave it as not such a perfect situation. What about the results of fingerprinting? We do not have those, we do not know how entrance was gained either. We have what we believe to be the exit, but not the entrance. How much has been held back?
    When I say "perfect crime" I am really defining it as a crime that is unsolved after two decades. That is pretty close to the definition but I do take your points in that there are things we do not know.

    You raise a most interesting point and that is the matter of the fingerprints. If we are to believe that there were fingerprints found in the home and we know of about 18 people or so who were there that day, we have a ready pool of possible suspects. Obviously only a small number could be said to be credible suspects. I would look to the prints which aren't there. If none of the prints of any of the GJ3 suspects or of Cox are not in evidence anywhere in or outside the home, that would mean they did a first rate job of scrubbing the crime scene of evidence. Yet, we know that they missed five obvious things which should have been handled prior to exiting the house. They would have switched off the TV, taken the purses, turned off the porch light, locked the door and cleaned up the broken globe.

    No credible argument could be made that any of those four individuals would have ever had a legitimate reason to have their prints or DNA anywhere in the house or outside the house. Yet, any of the 18 had reasons to be in the house so it doesn't establish anything that wasn't already known.

    So this is a somewhat long winded explanation of what I meant by the "perfect" crime. Everything of critical importance was taken care of by the perpetrators and the things that were not attended to didn't provide any clues.

    I wouldn't have cared to have carried out such a crime without a "checklist" of items to be taken care of on the way out the door. Instead this looks now to be an ad hoc affair that was not so perfect, yet the net result it has remained unsolved.
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  3. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    I don't agree with your feeling that the facts have led people nowhere for 20 yrs. I believe this crime is essentially solved but lacks a couple of pieces of evidence to get a conviction in a court of law. It really is a very simple case and not some big, dark conspiracy. Whether the case is ever brought into a court of law remains to be seen; perhaps not. There are lots of crimes that are solved but never get a conviction. But if you don't follow the evidence those who are still around will still be discussing the same old things over and over. Might as well take posts from this thread and just change the date.
    What do you think the couple of pieces of evidence could be ?

    I don't believe that it is a big, dark conspiracy either.

    Crimes cannot truly be solved unless someone has been held accountable and the victim's families have closure...so this case is far from being solved. So all of this..."they know who did it" stuff really doesn't matter does it?

    This is just my opinion.

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  5. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaliMama View Post
    What do you think the couple of pieces of evidence could be ?

    I don't believe that it is a big, dark conspiracy either.

    Crimes cannot truly be solved unless someone has been held accountable and the victim's families have closure...so this case is far from being solved. So all of this..."they know who did it" stuff really doesn't matter does it?

    This is just my opinion.
    If I may interject my $0.02, as I mulled these "couple of pieces" of evidence overnight it occurred to me that includes a broad range of possibilities up to and including confessions (which has been suggested elsewhere to possible DNA/fingerprints, etc.) In short, I don't know if that tells us very much to make us hopeful that this case will be closed anytime soon.

    Having followed this case for many years; actually since it happened in 1992, I have seen and read many accounts from various sources, including police officers, talked and communicated with reporters who covered this case and I never got the impression that this case had really moved off the dime since it happened. I recently recovered some old e-mails I had with a person with a pipeline into the investigation and the impression I received I believe to be was honest and forthright was that no one really knew what happened although various investigators had their own theories. One person involved with the case went so far as to say it would be up to the reporters to solve the case. That's about as clear a statement as I can see that the police simply do not know what happened; at least when that statement was made several years ago about 2006 (as I recall).

    Recently however, some people have opined that the police really do know what happened; that there is a short list of suspects; about 10 in all, and one went so far as to say that Cox was not on the list but wanted him to come clean because they believed he knew where the remains were to be found. Supposedly this came from someone within the police department. The poster and source were anonymous, as usual. This was stated on another website which follows this case closely. I am very very dubious and skeptical that this is factual information.

    My personal take on this matter is that unless a new grand jury is convened and all of the individuals who last had contact with the women are requestioned under oath and penalty of perjury that this case will remain dormant and unsolved. Otherwise it will be the subject of endless speculation, accusations, animosity between parties; some with their own ax to grind, that will never end. In other words we will be talking about this case 10 years from now on the 30th anniversary of the case. We are shortly coming up on the 20th anniversary and I see nothing in the offing that would change that probability. I hope I am wrong. I hope I am dead wrong and would be extremely happy to get out my knife and fork and eat a huge helping of crow.

    To repeat, this is my own $0.02 worth to this discussion.
    Last edited by Missouri Mule; 01-31-2012 at 11:34 AM.
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  7. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaliMama View Post
    What do you think the couple of pieces of evidence could be ?

    I don't believe that it is a big, dark conspiracy either.

    Crimes cannot truly be solved unless someone has been held accountable and the victim's families have closure...so this case is far from being solved. So all of this..."they know who did it" stuff really doesn't matter does it?

    This is just my opinion.
    <modsnip> Do you really think the Nicole Brown/Ron Goldman double murder case is not solved? I know OJ was going to spend the rest of his life looking for the real killer, but he got side tracked by a few golf courses and 15 yrs in prison!

    How about the muder of actor Robert Blake's wife?

    How many hours a month do you suppose LE devotes to these "unsolved" cases? And I only pick these two cases because they are national celebrity cases. There are hundreds of missing person and homicide cases all across this country that are solved but not closed due to a lack of evidence to obtain a conviction.
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  9. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post
    Yet, we know that they missed five obvious things which should have been handled prior to exiting the house. They would have switched off the TV, taken the purses, turned off the porch light, locked the door and cleaned up the broken globe.
    This is one of the reasons why I think that Stacy making it out the door (or almost getting out of the house) and being brought back makes sense. If you think about it, the plan for the first part of the evening went pretty flawless. I think most people on this board agree that this was NOT a random b&e or sexual assault, so the planning on when and how to enter the house was not only successful, but was pulled off without the women knowing that someone was watching/following them or having felt threatened or in danger before the event, and without any of the neighbors seeing. To me, I think this makes it reasonable that something happened while the perp(s) were already enacting their plan that made them feel as though they needed to get out of there in a hurry. If you think about it, turning off the TV, grabbing the purses, flipping the light switch, and locking the door would have taken at most 90 seconds. Cleaning up the glass would have taken a bit longer, but if everything else seemed in order when someone entered the house, this wouldn't necessarily be a "tell" that something had gone wrong, so they could have logically excused not taking the time to do that. So, we can logically deduce that SOMETHING must have happened in or around the house to make the perp(s) feel like they had to get out without a second to spare (or that spooked them enough to make them overlook these details).

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  11. #556
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    Let me ask a question. What is the distinction between a "solved" case and a "cleared" case? I can't seem to find the precise definition.

    The relevance of this is that if the case is marked as one of the two, (and I'm not sure of the exact definition), does it mean the case has ceased to be investigated? ("cleared" off the detective's desk)

    If the case is "solved" or "cleared" does it mean in this case that the case is no longer being worked? There seems to be some controversy about the status of the case. From what I have gathered in recent years, the police are waiting on someone to confess in order to close the case. Short of a confession, is there any other things that could be done to hasten its closing?

    Since none of us here, to my knowledge, have actually seen the case file, and until and unless a trial is held, we don't truly know if the case is actually solved or "cleared" do we? It might be conceivable that the police are simply wrong. It would be my belief that if a poll were held here as to whether the case is solved or unsolved that the larger number of people would vote it was not solved. From what I know, and it is certainly not everything, I would vote that it was not solved. Thoughts.

    P.S. I would concede that most people would regard the Simpson and Blake murders as "solved" or "cleared" cases. I would be in that camp.
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  13. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaya View Post
    This is one of the reasons why I think that Stacy making it out the door (or almost getting out of the house) and being brought back makes sense. If you think about it, the plan for the first part of the evening went pretty flawless. I think most people on this board agree that this was NOT a random b&e or sexual assault, so the planning on when and how to enter the house was not only successful, but was pulled off without the women knowing that someone was watching/following them or having felt threatened or in danger before the event, and without any of the neighbors seeing. To me, I think this makes it reasonable that something happened while the perp(s) were already enacting their plan that made them feel as though they needed to get out of there in a hurry. If you think about it, turning off the TV, grabbing the purses, flipping the light switch, and locking the door would have taken at most 90 seconds. Cleaning up the glass would have taken a bit longer, but if everything else seemed in order when someone entered the house, this wouldn't necessarily be a "tell" that something had gone wrong, so they could have logically excused not taking the time to do that. So, we can logically deduce that SOMETHING must have happened in or around the house to make the perp(s) feel like they had to get out without a second to spare (or that spooked them enough to make them overlook these details).
    I do agree about the broken globe. I was speaking in a "perfect world" it would have been cleaned up. Had the house been locked and the other items attended to, it wouldn't have been sufficient to forcibly enter the house to make inquiries about the women. It may simply have been that the globe merely fell off due to insufficient fastening of the small finger screws holding it in place. Not a big deal in and of itself.

    I had long held the view this was a planned event. I have come to consider in recent months that perhaps it was not. I'm thinking back to my college days and the night of partying that went on Saturday night. After one party wrapped up, there was always another one or two going on and I couldn't stand to see good beer wasted with all those cold kegs being underutilized. (I'm telling on myself now). I could envision a young man or group of men who struck up a relationship with one or more of these young attractive women and alcohol loosens the inhibitions greatly. I could see that they went over to the Levitt house, pecked on the door leading to Suzie's bedroom and let in. Some roughhouse commenced and Stacy, wanting no part of this decided to exit the house. Suzie was pinned down on the bed, Sherrill came in, hearing this commotion, and was knocked cold (doesn't have to create a mess) and someone grabbed Stacy making her escape. All three were bundled up and hustled into the van and rationality went out the window. The "alpha male" bullied his friends into going along with this fiasco and off they went to deal with the problem which they had to know would land them in prison for false imprisonment, assault and battery and a host of other charges. What would they be willing to do to escape that fate? Murders have taken place for lesser reasons.

    I'm just thinking outside the box. Don't know if it will have anyone agreeing with me but if, as we have been told previously, that the police do not know what happened, why is this not as good a theory as any? Tear it apart.
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  15. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post
    What we don't know is if the published reports are entirely correct. We are told there was no forced entry. If that is really true and positively ruled out, then the intruders had to have been let in the house by one of the women.

    Now there are some issues to be dealt with. It has been asserted that this was a crime of "sexual assault." We don't know what this is based on. It was also asserted that Sherrill was the probable victim, but why wait so late in the night?

    For now, I would like to see some discussion about the dog. Specifically, how do the girls get into the house without the dog going completely bonkers and obviously waking Sherrill? In my opinion, she had to have known they had arrived home. If all three were in the home, doors secured, how did entry occur? It just seems like it had to have been someone one of the women knew. That's my opinion for what is worth. As another poster said, I am rambling on. Pick it apart as you wish.

    P.S. We know Suzie had an overnight bag. What happened to Stacy's overnight bag? We have never heard anything about it to my knowledge. Does that strike anyone as unusual?
    Or did Stacy have an overnight bag? She had to have a swimsuit and a toothbrush if she planned to stay overnight in a hotel. Were they in a plastic grocery bag? I do that all the time when I want to work out....

    It would be nice to know if Sherrill was a sound sleeper. She wasn't expecting Suzie to come home so she might not have fallen asleep in that "twilight" mode that parents have when offspring are out and expected to come home. (I have as aspect of my job that involves travel and my husband never falls fully asleep until he hears me come home.)

    Let me say that I have never heard of a Yorkie that didn't yap every time the door opened. It's possible that if the abductor(s) were already in the house, they put Cinnamon in the closet that had stuff removed from it while they were there.

    If the abductor(s) came before the girls came home, he/they had to have a way to gain entrance because Sherrill probably locked the door before she went to sleep (not expecting Suzie to come home). If the abductor came in after the two girls got home, access could have been easy if they sat outside for a while, if one of the girls went to the car for something, if they knew the girls (or one of them knew the girls) or if they met the girls randomly at George's or a convenience store and then adjourned to Suzie's to continue the party.

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  17. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittsburghgirl View Post
    ....(Snip) Or did Stacy have an overnight bag? She had to have a swimsuit and a toothbrush if she planned to stay overnight in a hotel. Were they in a plastic grocery bag? I do that all the time when I want to work out....
    (snip)

    I believe that Hurricane has addressed that issue in post #538....(Snip)" I do think that plans to drive to Branson were fluid and had pretty well fell apart before the girls left their homes close to 8:00 pm. That is why Suzie left her bag which she had previously packed at home, and Stacy didn't have one. That is also why by 8:30 pm they were looking for a place to spend the night and asking Brian Joy if they could stay at his house since he was already having guests stay over for the night"....(Snip)

    He may wish to elaborate. I am assuming that he has verified this. I, like you, have often wondered about her presumed overnight bag. We do know, however, that Suzie had one packed which was in the written accounts.
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  19. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post
    I could envision a young man or group of men who struck up a relationship with one or more of these young attractive women and alcohol loosens the inhibitions greatly. I could see that they went over to the Levitt house, pecked on the door leading to Suzie's bedroom and let in. Some roughhouse commenced and Stacy, wanting no part of this decided to exit the house. Suzie was pinned down on the bed, Sherrill came in, hearing this commotion, and was knocked cold (doesn't have to create a mess) and someone grabbed Stacy making her escape. All three were bundled up and hustled into the van and rationality went out the window. The "alpha male" bullied his friends into going along with this fiasco and off they went to deal with the problem which they had to know would land them in prison for false imprisonment, assault and battery and a host of other charges. What would they be willing to do to escape that fate? Murders have taken place for lesser reasons.

    I'm just thinking outside the box. Don't know if it will have anyone agreeing with me but if, as we have been told previously, that the police do not know what happened, why is this not as good a theory as any? Tear it apart.
    I'll throw out a couple of thoughts about this. If this were the setup for how the evening escalated, it would have had to have been a male/group of males that Suzie was already friends with, or at least knew where she lived. Stacy did not know how to get to Suzie's new house and had to follow her there. So, she couldn't have given directions to someone at a party, nor did she even know that she was going to be staying with Suzie. If a guy/group of guys had been at Janelle's and left with the girls and followed them home, surely this would be information that would have been reported to the police, because these men would then become the last people proven to have seen the girls alive.

    If it were a group of Suzie's friends who came over, knocked on the door, and entered the room, surely Stacy would have gotten dressed? If not immediately, then at least when she got up to attempt to leave.

    And I know that events have escalated into murder for much less, but I have a hard time believing that a group of teen guys would go from attempted sexual assault to triple homicide that easily. If one had attempted to sexually assault Suzie, one had knocked out Sherrill, and a third (or one of the previous) restrained Stacy, you are talking some pretty small charges and little jail time.

    Finally, given that the idea that some kind of van was involved in the abductions has been accepted pretty much universally, wouldn't someone at one of the parties mention that a group of guys in a van of similar description had been there and talking with Suzie?

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  21. #561
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    This is a bit of a change of topic, but I was just reading on the AirAlex board (I've stopped posting over there because I got tired of all the BS), and was wondering if any of you who follow that conversation think that there is anything to the connection about several women going missing in the area at the time being hair dressers?

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    As I have followed this case for 5 years now, my initial inclination was that this was a planned event. However as I got into the events of the investigation, i came to believe this was random and it was sexual assault. For whatever reason the police claimed this too. The lack of evidence of any other motive is probably the reason. For a long time I believed the perps were in the home when the girls arrived, but I could see someone following the girls home, I also could see someone in the neighborhood working who had interacted with them at some point. I have heard the rumor that Stacy tried to run but I heard it was out the back, and if true she was caught in the backyard. Which means more than one perp. Thinking about this differently, I think the broken globe could be the only sign of struggle because it is where the crime occurred. Lets say someone comes to the door, knocking, and for whatever reason the door was opened. Right there, a struggle occurs. Naturally, Suzie or Sherrill would go to the front door to the aid of the other. Stacy seeing this fears for herself and bolts out the back patio door in Suzies room. the 2nd assailent who is outside the house goes west around the side of the house. That back yard is enclosed with a privacy fence and the west side of the house is the only way out of the backyard. Stacy runs directly into 2nd assailent or is trapped in the back yard. Now the other assaillents were not expecting this to happen either. The "deviant" assaillent put the crime into motion, and they are now in trouble with him. This all happens so fast, they close the door, and are gone. No prints, no forensics nothing but a broken porch globe and a foot print. No master criminal needed.
    I always thought that sexual assault was the motive, but it didnt make sense for 2 or more to do this with that as a motive. However, I could believe that one of the men was the "deviant" and anyone with him was only a part of this because it happened so quickly. They may have participated afterward, but the intent was not there to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaya View Post
    This is a bit of a change of topic, but I was just reading on the AirAlex board (I've stopped posting over there because I got tired of all the BS), and was wondering if any of you who follow that conversation think that there is anything to the connection about several women going missing in the area at the time being hair dressers?
    To be perfectly honest, it is remotely plausible but only for this reason. Sherrill had worked at the old Heer's Department Store on the mezzanine section which was like a 1/2 story to the 2nd story. One took it up via escalator. I went up there many times on break as I worked next door. I do know that Carnahan came into our office on many occasions; too many to count. He was always well groomed and seemingly non threatening. We had loose security in those days. I suppose it might be possible for him to have attached some interest in hair dressers beginning there. It's been a long time and I don't recall when Heer's closed. It was probably at or before the abductions.

    I wouldn't rule it out, but I think it is a remote possibility only because these crimes haven't been solved. As I recall several other victims in the area were not hair dressers so we don't really know if these crimes were connected. By the same token, I recollect that Debbie Lewis and I also seem to remember that Stacy worked in fitness clubs. So perhaps there is some connection there although most do not believe that Stacy was the intended target. My personal opinion for what it is worth is that Debbie Lewis was probably a Carnahan victim but that is purely a guess. Something about that crime scene always struck me as his handiwork.

    I think the possibility that there was a concerted effort to target hair dressers is not very great. I would not want to build a theory based on that kind of connection. Just my random thoughts.
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  27. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaya View Post
    ....snip

    Finally, given that the idea that some kind of van was involved in the abductions has been accepted pretty much universally, wouldn't someone at one of the parties mention that a group of guys in a van of similar description had been there and talking with Suzie?...(snip)
    Just a quick thought regarding the van. While most believe a van was used not everyone believes that although I believe the preponderance of evidence is that one was used. I'll go on that assumption. My point here is that this is why I have stated on numerous occasions that a grand jury should be convened to get to the truth, if it is not already known, precisely what was known by the people last known to have seen the victims. After all, how many dozens of people saw the women at the Hanover address? Surely such a van would have been seen there, if anywhere. The other possibility is that it was nowhere to be seen but then according to what I have been told and I believe reliable, neighbors in the immediate area were not properly queried about the reported sighting of a similar van seen just prior to the abductions.

    If it were up to me, and I certainly have no influence on the decision of the police, I would want to build this case from ground zero and round up every possible witness and get this story down tight as is possible. Even after two decades, there are still people who may have over the years remembered things which were not stated in the initial investigation. I think it is worth doing again, if for no other reason than to satisfy the public curiosity that ought not be ignored. We need to have confidence in the police departments to solve cases. There is too much bad blood between various factions to just let it fester. My additional $0.02 for today.
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  29. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    <modsnip> Do you really think the Nicole Brown/Ron Goldman double murder case is not solved? I know OJ was going to spend the rest of his life looking for the real killer, but he got side tracked by a few golf courses and 15 yrs in prison!

    How about the muder of actor Robert Blake's wife?

    How many hours a month do you suppose LE devotes to these "unsolved" cases? And I only pick these two cases because they are national celebrity cases. There are hundreds of missing person and homicide cases all across this country that are solved but not closed due to a lack of evidence to obtain a conviction.
    Actually, both of those case did result in someone being held accountable and closure for the victim's families. Those cases were taken to a civil trial and wrongful death judgements were awarded in each case.

    I understand what you are saying, but I have not read anywhere that LE has ever stated that they have a person or persons of interest and they have not named a suspect. They have also made statements that the three women's disappearance seemed as though they had been "raptured" (Vanished documentary trailer) and in an article they mention how baffled they are that maybe aliens abducted them (I am sure they weren't being serious and they mentioned these things to indicate their level of frustration). It just seems as though that it is more than a couple of missing pieces of evidence and those statements don't sound like they know who did it.

    All I have to go on are the news articles, facts obtained here on WS and statements by LE and nothing indicates that they have solved this case. It is just my opinion. If they have solved it then they need to provide some kind of closure to the victim's families because it certainly doesn't seem like they feel as though this case is solved either.

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    Trooogrit: I must commend you on your theory. I was unaware of the arrangement of the back privacy fence. That would make sense. Do we know where the alleged footprint of Stacy was found? I had thought I was told it was on the front of the house. Offhand, do you know?

    Would I be wrong in guessing that the "deviant" was likely one of the GJ3? That is the impression I gained from your post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post
    Trooogrit: I must commend you on your theory. I was unaware of the arrangement of the back privacy fence. That would make sense. Do we know where the alleged footprint of Stacy was found? I had thought I was told it was on the front of the house. Offhand, do you know?

    Would I be wrong in guessing that the "deviant" was likely one of the GJ3? That is the impression I gained from your post.
    If it is the same rumor I remember it being the back, but I do not know for sure. Of course I lean toward Garrison in this theory. It is just a different way of looking at it based on the little information known. I am not really of the thinking that the people at the parties were hardened enough to do something like this. I also do not think that 2 or 3 individuals would agree on something like this from the onset.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaliMama View Post
    Actually, both of those case did result in someone being held accountable and closure for the victim's families. Those cases were taken to a civil trial and wrongful death judgements were awarded in each case.

    I understand what you are saying, but I have not read anywhere that LE has ever stated that they have a person or persons of interest and they have not named a suspect. They have also made statements that the three women's disappearance seemed as though they had been "raptured" (Vanished documentary trailer) and in an article they mention how baffled they are that maybe aliens abducted them (I am sure they weren't being serious and they mentioned these things to indicate their level of frustration). It just seems as though that it is more than a couple of missing pieces of evidence and those statements don't sound like they know who did it.

    All I have to go on are the news articles, facts obtained here on WS and statements by LE and nothing indicates that they have solved this case. It is just my opinion. If they have solved it then they need to provide some kind of closure to the victim's families because it certainly doesn't seem like they feel as though this case is solved either.
    I'm glad that you feel that justice was served then, to the Brown and Goldman family. If they have any peace at all it's in knowing that OJ is locked away for 15 yrs and not in the $33,000,000.00 judgement they got in civil court and have only collected a pittance on if anything, and from knowing that the real killer is not running loose out there somewhere. I'm not familiar with Blake's civil suit but at his age I'm quite confident he is happy that he got away with murder and will probably die without paying out any of the monetary judgement against him.

    As you say, you are looking at a limited amount of evidence made public in this case, most of it now 20 yrs old. I always find it humorous that posters on these many forums staunchly defend their right to constantly change their opinions and theories on this case but want to hold members of LE and the District Attorney to statements they might have made 20 yrs ago in frustration on day two of this investigation. To do that is to believe that their case has not developed or evolved at all, and I can tell you with certainty that is simply not true.
    “Finding the occasional straw of truth awash in a great ocean of confusion and bamboozle requires intelligence, vigilance, dedication and courage. But if we don’t practice these tough habits of thought, we cannot hope to solve the truly serious problems that face us – and we risk becoming a nation of suckers, up for grabs by the next charlatan who comes along.” – Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

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  37. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooogrit View Post
    If it is the same rumor I remember it being the back, but I do not know for sure. Of course I lean toward Garrison in this theory. It is just a different way of looking at it based on the little information known. I am not really of the thinking that the people at the parties were hardened enough to do something like this. I also do not think that 2 or 3 individuals would agree on something like this from the onset.
    I am sort of in your camp after sleeping on it. For the longest time I had thought since no forensic evidence was evidently found at the scene (in the house) tying any of these individuals to the crime (so far as we know), I had tended to rule them out. And the one thing that I always assumed was that entry was actually made into the house. It is possible that only a very limited entry was made; in fact, maybe not at all, if one of the girls went to her car, was grabbed and asked the other one to come out, the intruders might not even have gone inside. Sherrill could have followed out as well hearing the request to come outside. It may very well have been that there was no fear of anyone at that early morning hour and they simply let their guard down.

    I agree about the possibility of Garrison with his known past history. We have the other possible suspects to deal with and this is where it breaks down for me. Do we have any idea where these other individuals are or even if they are alive today? If they ran with him they might have committed other crimes and simply be in prison and out of the public spotlight. The overriding issue is why no one has broken silence. Which, of course, is the reason I have leaned toward a single intruder. We also have the problem of the the van sighting and "Suzie" driving. If more than one person was involved, why would she be put in the driver's seat? Had she chose to do so she could have steered it into a telephone pole and potentially escaped and everything would have crashed down around the perp's necks.

    But I do like your theory. If the crime took place largely outside the house, it would explain no prints or DNA being found. There are always other loose ends but reasonable people can agree to disagree or have differing scenarios that would arrive at the same end product.
    "Never answer an anonymous letter"

    "I didn't really say everything I said"

    Yogi Berra



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  39. #570
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    Mule,
    You are right, Porch Lady, if her sighting is credible, pretty well confirms only one perp. This is very critical evidence. Actually there is a lot of information that can be inferred from Porch Lady; type of vehicle, direction of travel, the "fact" that the perp knew Suzie enough to have her drive, and the "fact" that the perp didn't live in the Springfield area (no one recognized the van).

    All of this hinges on the accuracy and overall honesty of Porch Lady. If she was wrong on key details, or, heaven forbid, making it all up, her information could be a major red herring that sent the whole investigation careening off in the wrong direction.
    Eye witnesses must be handled carefully. All too often, investigators manipulate witnesses to confirm preexisting assumptions or pin them down to details they really are not that sure of.

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  41. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    I'm glad that you feel that justice was served then, to the Brown and Goldman family. If they have any peace at all it's in knowing that OJ is locked away for 15 yrs and not in the $33,000,000.00 judgement they got in civil court and have only collected a pittance on if anything, and from knowing that the real killer is not running loose out there somewhere. I'm not familiar with Blake's civil suit but at his age I'm quite confident he is happy that he got away with murder and will probably die without paying out any of the monetary judgement against him.

    As you say, you are looking at a limited amount of evidence made public in this case, most of it now 20 yrs old. I always find it humorous that posters on these many forums staunchly defend their right to constantly change their opinions and theories on this case but want to hold members of LE and the District Attorney to statements they might have made 20 yrs ago in frustration on day two of this investigation. To do that is to believe that their case has not developed or evolved at all, and I can tell you with certainty that is simply not true.
    Respectfully, I do not like it when someone puts words in my mouth and twists the things that I say in a way to make my words untrue.

    I never said that justice was served. I said that someone was held accountable and the families had closure. I also never said that I believe that the case has not developed or evolved. I said that it isn't solved.

    The two statements from LE that I quoted were made in 2009. Let's move on.

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  43. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by kemo View Post
    Mule,
    You are right, Porch Lady, if her sighting is credible, pretty well confirms only one perp. This is very critical evidence. Actually there is a lot of information that can be inferred from Porch Lady; type of vehicle, direction of travel, the "fact" that the perp knew Suzie enough to have her drive, and the "fact" that the perp didn't live in the Springfield area (no one recognized the van).

    All of this hinges on the accuracy and overall honesty of Porch Lady. If she was wrong on key details, or, heaven forbid, making it all up, her information could be a major red herring that sent the whole investigation careening off in the wrong direction.
    Eye witnesses must be handled carefully. All too often, investigators manipulate witnesses to confirm preexisting assumptions or pin them down to details they really are not that sure of.
    That's the sticking point with the "porch Lady's" account. It must almost certainly require just one perpetrator. It simply wouldn't have made any sense that I can see if Suzie were the driver to have more than one. I'm excerpting my own post from another website today so I don't have to retype it.....If we have multiple perps (say the GJ3), why was Suzie driving the vehicle? Wouldn't it have been more logical for one of them to have been driving? I have speculated that if she were allowed to drive she could have opted to simply have driven into or sideswiped a telephone post which would have ended the whole matter immediately. Why take the chance?

    At least one officer was dubious of this account according to published reports. And I'm thinking that the "porch lady" didn't come forth until a week or more after the abductions. The story goes (as I was told by someone who claimed to be in attendance) that she was hypnotized to gain further information but became hysterical and the session cut short. The reason her account was deemed credible was that she (along with her husband, I believe) had (or did have) a used car dealership and readily could identify the make a model of the vehicle.

    On the same note, have we discarded the recent information about the "yard sale lady" who claimed to have seen a similar van at approximately 4:30 AM but with a man driving? The time differential seems to be an insurmountable problem in that it is not reasonable to believe it was just cruising the neighborhood for nearly two hours. What I was told, and who can know for sure what is the truth, is that the police were not interested in her story
    .

    If the "porch lady" is not accurate, then I think that Trooogrit's suggested scenario has much to commend it.
    "Never answer an anonymous letter"

    "I didn't really say everything I said"

    Yogi Berra



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  45. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaliMama View Post
    Respectfully, I do not like it when someone puts words in my mouth and twists the things that I say in a way to make my words untrue.

    I never said that justice was served. I said that someone was held accountable and the families had closure. I also never said that I believe that the case has not developed or evolved. I said that it isn't solved.

    The two statements from LE that I quoted were made in 2009. Let's move on.
    What started this discussion was the correlation between a case being solved but not closed due to the overall burden of proof in a court of law, and therefore the lack of justice being served.

    You are right; it is time to move on. This will be my last post. Good luck with your investigation.
    “Finding the occasional straw of truth awash in a great ocean of confusion and bamboozle requires intelligence, vigilance, dedication and courage. But if we don’t practice these tough habits of thought, we cannot hope to solve the truly serious problems that face us – and we risk becoming a nation of suckers, up for grabs by the next charlatan who comes along.” – Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

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  47. #574
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    Trooogrit, Hurricane, Kathee, anyone!

    Do you guys know of any males who had access to Sherill's house or had been invited over since she moved in to 1717 E Delmar?

    Bartt?
    Waterbed delivery guys?
    Movers?
    Ex boyfriends?
    Suzie's boyfriends?
    Lawn service? Did they mow their own lawn?
    Handymen?

  48. #575
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    The scenario that the perp or perps never even went into the house kept me awake for most of the night because I do think this makes sense.

    As I was tossing this around in my head, I decided that there were probably two guys involved and maybe it did happen the way it was suggested in post #562. I think it is possible that Suzie opened the door after hearing the glass break on the front porch and she was subdued either by force or by using a weapon. Could Stacy see from the open doorway of the bedroom to where the front door was (I have seen the pics, but they weren't where they used to be the last time I looked)? Anyway, if she could get a glimpse of what was happening from the bedroom (or could hear what was going on), I think this would have caused her to immediately escape out of the back door as it has been suggested. Of course, all of this commotion most definitely caused the Yorkie to bark like crazy. This in addition to also hearing the glass break may have made Sherrill jump out of bed, grab shoes as fast as she can so she can go outside to check on what is going on. I think there would need to have been two guys to get Suzie and to also catch Stacy after she ran outside. Sherrill, at this point, would not have to be forced into the van at all after knowing that her daughter is in there and in harm's way. A mother will do anything to protect her child.

    My thoughts on the reason why Suzie was driving the van (if the porch lady sighting is true) is that the one perp was busy committing a crime in the van and the other one wasn't from the area and didn't know his way around town well enough to get on the interstate from that neighborhood. I think they might have chosen Suzie to be the driver because it was her neighborhood, but not Sherrill because she was older, wiser and clever enough to drive them to safety.

    This is all just speculation, not fact.

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