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Thread: 2011.04.26 - Day two of the trial - TOD testimony

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    2011.04.26 - Day two of the trial - TOD testimony

    Please do not post in this thread until information for Tuesday has been released.

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    This posted/updated at 12:25 a.m. Tuesday:

    Near the kitchen, an obscenity was painted over family photographs with the words, "I am always watching" and "I saw you leave." Other parts of the house were sprayed with the words "punished" and "U have paid."

    Noted in the crime scene photographs was a glob of long dark hairs found in the crook of Gavin's elbow. There was no testimony yet to put that into context. His father has short blond hair; his mother had long dark hair.


    http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...78faf22f2.html
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    "In the prosecution's opening statement, Reitz promised the jury a "very comprehensive" case from 40 witnesses, who he said would outline Christopher Coleman's six months of planning for the crime."

    http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...78faf22f2.html

    Thank You, Ynot. That's very interesting about the dark hairs found in the crook of Gavin's elbow. Could it point to Sherri most likely being strangled first? Oh, it must be chilling to be sitting on that jury.

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    http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2011/04/...-begins-today/

    Two witnesses today.

    "One is forensic pathologist Dr. Michael M. Baden, recognizable to many as the star of the HBO series “Autopsy”.

    He’s expected to testify about his determination as to the time of death of Sheri, Garett and Gavin Coleman, a very important point in the case against accused triple-murderer Chris Coleman.

    Defense attornies claim Dr. Baden made his determination based on select information provided by investigators.

    Also to testify, former Columbia Police Detective Sgt. Justin Barlow, who was a neighbor of the Colemans.

    He was among the first on the scene when the murders were discovered early on the morning of May 5, 2009.

    The jury may also begin seeing the first of seven hours of videotaped conversation between police and Chris Coleman in those hours right after the killings."

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    The medical examiner is uncomfortable giving a time of death, but estimates between 3 & 5 am. Baden can pinpoint it as by 3 am without even examining the bodies? I wish they would have kept him out of it. jmo I don't like him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ohiogirl View Post
    The medical examiner is uncomfortable giving a time of death, but estimates between 3 & 5 am. Baden can pinpoint it as by 3 am without even examining the bodies? I wish they would have kept him out of it. jmo I don't like him.
    I think I agree with you, generally, I don't like these well-known types being brought in. They may be experts, but their celebrity status does more harm than good, imo. And I think most of them can be paid to have whatever opinion you want them to have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ohiogirl View Post
    The medical examiner is uncomfortable giving a time of death, but estimates between 3 & 5 am. Baden can pinpoint it as by 3 am without even examining the bodies? I wish they would have kept him out of it. jmo I don't like him.
    I agree-not good at all. Luckily, there is enough other evidence that should close the door to any innocent verdict....

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    It dawned on me that if the prosecution hired Dr. Baden, then the defense team couldn't, right?

    I just want the truth of what can be learned from the estate of the bodies and what that tells us about the TOD. I "never" want one medical opinion, not ever. Even if that opinion came from the most trained and experience person, I want more than one opinion. In fact, I would like 3 or more opinions if I could have them.

    I have read autopsy reports wherein I felt that the determined cause of death was absolutely wrong! Based on what I could see in the report, knowing about a particular disease process AND based upon the known history of the family and victim, there were absolute signs that there was something else pronouncing itself to be the real cause. Subsequent "slide" studies and/or genetic studies proved the presence of the disease which took lives in the manner that the person died.

    Translating that to TOD... Some eyes will never see certain signs because they have never been trained to recognize them as signs. Those eyes have not had either the learning or experience to recognize the otherwise unrecognized but clear cut signs. They have never learned how a coupling of specific signs (vague as they might otherwise be), when put all together, speak to a very clear cut sign -- the haze clears.

    So, I am looking forward to Dr. Baden speaking to pieces of a puzzle that when placed together show a distinct picture of probable time of death.

    The local doctor is being safe with science, that is reasonable. No one was at the scene looking at their watch when the murders took place, thus no one can speak with certainty about the precise time. That does not erase that there are ways to determine probable times of death based on that which has been learned.

    I'm eager to hear about the pieces that speak to someone stating, "These people died between 11PM and midnight, but definitely no later than 5AM."

    My bet is that there could be some things that "would almost never ever be seen" in a body that had only died within the last two hours, much less in 3 bodies that had.

    All the above to say... I'm eager to hear the specifics of what the attending doctor found/learned, to read the autopsy reports if we can have them (and the results of the testing), AND to read two or three other medical opinions about that which has been learned (the data.) Either way...the attending said, 3 to 5, more support of that and earlier just adds driving force to the nail in Chris' coffin.
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    #Colemantrial twitter

    Baden said Sheri likely put up a fight with black eyes and marks on her neck. He told jury about his resume and 20k autopsies.

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    @FOX2now FOX2now
    #Colemantrial

    Dr. Michael Baden says Colemans died before 5am and closer to 3am.

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    Dr. Michael Baden, a nationally known forensic pathologist, told the jury here that it took four or five minutes each for the three victims to die, that they were killed at about the same time and that the same ligature was probably used to strangle them all.

    He said Sheri Coleman was likely killed first, because her hair appeared to be transferred from the ligature to her youngest child's elbow. Sheri Coleman had a black eye.

    Baden testified that lividity, the pooling of blood in lower parts of a dead body, indicated the three could have been dead as long as eight hours, but he said other factors, such as a lack of stomach contents, indicates the 3 a.m. time.

    http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...a4bcf6878.html

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    So... Chris... Go and tell THAT homeboy!

    You have had two professional people sit in front of the court room now, 2 who are trained to determine time of death, and they are calling you a FREAKING LIAR! They are saying that YOU LIED -- that your family was dead before you left at 5:43AM. So who is the killer, huh Chris?

    So Chris...why don't you see if your defense attorneys can get the jurors to believe your story that your family was alive before you left the house! See if they can get the jury to believe that you didn't linger over 3 people for 3 to 5 minutes while you choked the life out of them at your fingertips. See if they can get them to believe that you didn't beat Sheri in the face before you killed her. Or maybe they will try to convince the jury that Sheri hit herself in the face and strangled herself? It would be just about as believable as that family being alive when you left home...

    So, Chris...was that family alive when you left, or were you just guessing that? I mean, is that the next thing we are going to hear? That you were on the couch sleeping and left the home for the gym "assuming" that the family was alive when you left.

    Remember, you TOLD people they were alive when you left homeboy!
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    "Dr. Baden testified, that based on numerous photos that showed rigor mortis and discoloration of the bodies, the victims died around 3:00 a.m.

    He said the victims certainly died before 5:00 a.m. and "it wasn't a close call" to determine if they died before Chris Coleman said he went to the gym at 5:43 a.m. "

    http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/256...is-went-to-gym

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    Wrinkles... going back two years ago, and memory is a little rusty... but didn't the Coroner request Dr. Baden's help in reviewing the autopsy? I've been re-reading the original threads to refresh my memory on all our theories, the evidence, the so-called sources of some locals to see how close we were on it all now that we're at trial and I haven't come to that point yet, but I do seem to remember that. I could be wrong though. I do remember Baden saying they could have died as early as 11 p.m. on his NG appearance.

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    Hiya Stella,

    Our poster "Who Knew?" found a flock of facts that I wrote up in June 2009, they are [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6392951&postcount=95"]posted in this message.[/ame]

    To answer your question, there was mention of as early as 11 back then. As for the did the local doc ask Dr. Baden, it seems I recall that too, but I don't have a resource to document that (haven't had time to look).
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    Here's another article... The twitters aren't producing much, I'm surprised?

    >>The 31-year-old mother was strangled first. It takes four to five minutes to die from ligature strangulation, Baden testified.

    Then 9-year-old Gavin was killed. Then 11-year-old Garett.<<
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    Hello All,

    Remember my mention of the "fixing" of the blood and "locking" of the bodies? I'm no genius, these are certain noteable signs pointing to the probable time of death.

    The link I just posted says this:

    >>He based his estimate of the times of death on gravity pooling their blood, their body temperatures and the stiffness found in their bodies.<<

    Almost undoubtedly when the pressure test was applied to the lower part of the bodies (those closest to the ground when they were found) there was not a white fingerprint left, the blood that had pooled had "fixed." I would almost stake my life on that. I would almost bet that all 3, when tested, had the same results. It would be this, in part, that would speak to Dr. Baden saying they all died at around the same time. If you had only one body you might have questions, being that bodies can behave differently. But when you have 3 bodies which respond in the same way, i.e. the pressure test shows that the blood had "fixed" in all three (if that were the case), then it really pretty much says, we know that all three of these people died at least X hours ago. Couple that with the temp of the bodies (taking into consideration the environment in the house and other factors) and the stiffening noted (taking into consideration that which has been learned scientifically) AND you have, "No way were these people alive at 5:43AM, not even close!"

    Stella, this same article states, "Baden was consulted to set the time of death for the Colemans." It doesn't say who called him in to consult.
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    Why did the defense ask Baden about the OJ trial? What point were they making? Were they trying to discredit him? I really don't see why it was necessary to the Coleman trial. Anybody know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by who knew? View Post
    Why did the defense ask Baden about the OJ trial? What point were they making? Were they trying to discredit him? I really don't see why it was necessary to the Coleman trial. Anybody know?
    To make him look foolish, is my guess.

    I have a friend who works in a mortuary and she said it's pretty obvious that the TOD was much earlier than Coleman claims. I'm thinking Coleman can't cop a plea or he'd have done so by now.

    Case closed, IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by who knew? View Post
    Why did the defense ask Baden about the OJ trial? What point were they making? Were they trying to discredit him? I really don't see why it was necessary to the Coleman trial. Anybody know?
    I think you've nailed it. I think they are trying to say to the jury that Baden is untrustworthy because he was part of OJ's legal posse.

    That's what you do when you have nothing else.

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    Agree-case closed...And that's w/o the mountain of circumstancial evidence that will be presented by the end of the trial...this is coming down to life in prison or death penalty debate vs a guilt or innocent debate...

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    Quote Originally Posted by who knew? View Post
    Why did the defense ask Baden about the OJ trial? What point were they making? Were they trying to discredit him? I really don't see why it was necessary to the Coleman trial. Anybody know?
    are you all watching this trial online?

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    "#Colemantrial Dr Baden says it would take 5-15 min per strangulation. Defense struggled to counter, but asked about Baden's OJ testimony."

    It's great news that the defense had a hard time countering how long it would take to complete all 3 deaths... there is a time stamp of CC leaving at 5:43 a.m. on the City Camera at the neighborhood entrance/exit; and he was back at 6:50 a.m., can't remember when the neighbor policeman got on the scene, but no way was there enough time, especially to create reasonable doubt for the jurors. Not enough time for the mysterious SODDI to complete the killings, and spray paint the entire house.

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    Annalyzer, no cameras allowed in courtroom... reporters are tweeting.
    http://www.fox2now.com/news/coleman/

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