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  1. #1
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    German grandchildren of Nazis delve into past

    BERLIN – Rainer Hoess was 12 years old when he found out his grandfather was one of the worst mass murderers in history.


    The gardener at his boarding school, an Auschwitz survivor, beat him black and blue after hearing he was the grandson of Rudolf Hoess, commandant of the death camp synonymous with the Holocaust.


    "He beat me, because he projected on me all the horror he went through," Rainer Hoess said, with a shrug and a helpless smile. "Once a Hoess, always a Hoess. Whether you're the grandfather or the grandson — guilty is guilty."


    MUCH more at link:


    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110514/...of_the_fathers


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    Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (KJV)

    10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord. (KJV)

    Follow me at my Biblical Blog: http://scripture-demystified.blogspot.com

    Baruch ha Shem Adonai.

  2. #2
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    Wow, what an interesting article.

    "The Nazis — the first generation — were too ashamed to talk about the crimes they committed and covered everything up. The second generation often had trouble personally confronting their Nazi parents. So now it is up to the grandchildren to lift the curses off their families," said Bode
    That's quite a burden to bear...to feel like you have to lift the curse.

    (And I'm not sure 1st generation were convinced of the wrongness of their actions, which would make it even more difficult.) I will admit it's much more fun to delve into the Irish side of my family ancestry, and I'm ok with not knowing about the German side.

  3. #3
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    In one prominent case, Bettina Goering, the grandniece of Hermann Goering, one of the country's leading Nazis and the head of the Luftwaffe air force, said in an Israeli TV documentary that she decided to be sterilized at age 30 "because I was afraid to bear another such monster."

    that's incredibly sad ...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyL View Post
    In one prominent case, Bettina Goering, the grandniece of Hermann Goering, one of the country's leading Nazis and the head of the Luftwaffe air force, said in an Israeli TV documentary that she decided to be sterilized at age 30 "because I was afraid to bear another such monster."

    that's incredibly sad ...
    But consistent with the Nazi obsession with race, genetics, eugenics, etc.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
    BERLIN – Rainer Hoess was 12 years old when he found out his grandfather was one of the worst mass murderers in history.


    The gardener at his boarding school, an Auschwitz survivor, beat him black and blue after hearing he was the grandson of Rudolf Hoess, commandant of the death camp synonymous with the Holocaust.


    "He beat me, because he projected on me all the horror he went through," Rainer Hoess said, with a shrug and a helpless smile. "Once a Hoess, always a Hoess. Whether you're the grandfather or the grandson — guilty is guilty."


    MUCH more at link:


    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110514/...of_the_fathers
    Very interesting article, but the story about young Rainer Hoess being beaten by his prep school gardener sets off my hinky meter. It could have happened, I suppose, but something about it sounds apocryphal.

    More likely, I suspect (without a shred of proof), is that Rainer Hoess FELT that people wanted to beat him because of his grandfather.

    IMO (obviously).

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    But consistent with the Nazi obsession with race, genetics, eugenics, etc.
    She is not a Nazi, however. She obviously just understood that such tendencies can be genetic, which we all understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    Very interesting article, but the story about young Rainer Hoess being beaten by his prep school gardener sets off my hinky meter. It could have happened, I suppose, but something about it sounds apocryphal.

    More likely, I suspect (without a shred of proof), is that Rainer Hoess FELT that people wanted to beat him because of his grandfather.

    IMO (obviously).
    I don't have the slightest reason to doubt that Rainer was beaten due to who his grandfather was, especially from one of his victims. Maybe you don't want to believe the victim would be so revenge-minded for some reason, but I literally see nothing that would cause me to doubt his story, or even have it cross my mind to doubt it. It's very reasonable, actually. Much like when our veterans come home from the wars in the Middle East and have a hatred and distrust of all Arabs due to PTSD, etc. A Holocaust victim responding violently to the grandson of their persecutor is not the slightest bit unrealistic.


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    Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (KJV)

    10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord. (KJV)

    Follow me at my Biblical Blog: http://scripture-demystified.blogspot.com

    Baruch ha Shem Adonai.

  7. #7
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    I know the holocaust memories live down through the generations and kind of haunts the later generations. But I never thought of the later generations of the Nazi's.

    I sitting here imagining a kid in school and they are studying the holocaust. And the kid is sitting there knowing that not only was his name the same as one of the Nazi, but the Nazi was a grandparent. I can't imagine how that kid would feel. I would think it would cause a lot of confusion in the kid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
    She is not a Nazi, however. She obviously just understood that such tendencies can be genetic, which we all understand.



    I don't have the slightest reason to doubt that Rainer was beaten due to who his grandfather was, especially from one of his victims. Maybe you don't want to believe the victim would be so revenge-minded for some reason, but I literally see nothing that would cause me to doubt his story, or even have it cross my mind to doubt it. It's very reasonable, actually. Much like when our veterans come home from the wars in the Middle East and have a hatred and distrust of all Arabs due to PTSD, etc. A Holocaust victim responding violently to the grandson of their persecutor is not the slightest bit unrealistic.
    Yeah, it's very reasonable that a gardener beats a prep school student, gardeners being the official disciplinarians of most prep schools. And prep schools are always so forgiving when the non-academic staff assault students.

    It's possible, DK, but we're talking about an act that would surely lose the gardener his job and most likely end with him in prison for abusing a child. And of course this is all assuming a victim would abuse a child for revenge against his grandfather.

    It could happen, but as I said, I'm skeptical.

    ***

    As for the woman who got an abortion, I realize she isn't a Nazi; however, I was noting ironically that her action is consistent with Nazi obsessions.

    And no I don't believe there is a gene that causes one to create and run a death camp. That is not something "we all know."

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    Goering's neice could easily have legally changed her name. I find her decision difficult to understand although I can respect it as her choice.

    Bad as he was, Goering was more moderate than many in the Nazi leadership. From what I know he had some Jewish friends he protected. His main offense was that he was a corrupt bastard who used his influence to take what he wanted for himself.
    'Never stop fighting..never give up'

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    Yeah, it's very reasonable that a gardener beats a prep school student, gardeners being the official disciplinarians of most prep schools. And prep schools are always so forgiving when the non-academic staff assault students.

    It's possible, DK, but we're talking about an act that would surely lose the gardener his job and most likely end with him in prison for abusing a child. And of course this is all assuming a victim would abuse a child for revenge against his grandfather.

    It could happen, but as I said, I'm skeptical.

    ***

    As for the woman who got an abortion, I realize she isn't a Nazi; however, I was noting ironically that her action is consistent with Nazi obsessions.

    And no I don't believe there is a gene that causes one to create and run a death camp. That is not something "we all know."
    He does not say if the gardener lost his job or had any other consequences of his actions. Once in a rage, especially if it's PTSD fueled, I doubt the gardener gave it any thought.

    And it would require some sociopathic tendencies to be able to do the things they did at the death camps, and we know sociopathy and psychopathy can be genetic. Therefore, that is reasonable for someone to draw that conclusion outside of any Nazi beliefs. (And she did not get an abortion, we was sterilized.)


    Follow me on the Twitter! @EricDiesel1972

    Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (KJV)

    10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord. (KJV)

    Follow me at my Biblical Blog: http://scripture-demystified.blogspot.com

    Baruch ha Shem Adonai.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    But consistent with the Nazi obsession with race, genetics, eugenics, etc.
    Eugenics originated in Britian with Sir Francis Galton just before the turn of the century. And it really took root in the U.S. For example, following are some excerpts from the American Eugenics Society around 1922.

    "Those least fit to carry on the race are increasing most rapidly ... Funds that should be used to raise the standard of our civilization are diverted to maintenance of those who should never have been born." -- Margaret Sanger

    Harry Laughlin, President, American Eugenics Society 1928-29. Also zealous superintendent, Eugenics Record Office. Perhaps the most ambitious promoter of laws to sterilize "hereditary defectives" and to restrict the inflow of "worthless" immigrants..

    President Roosevelt once complained that the American middle class was committing "racial suicide" by not having enough children. Hence, the eugenics movement was pitched to the educated public as an element of family management.

    It was the eugenics programs of the early 1900s -- ABA (1903), OER (1910), AES (1923) -- that is thought to have led up to the Holocaust atrocities.

    The Nazis took inspiration from the American eugenicists. *After a German sterilization law passed in 1933, the Nazis sterilized more mental patients in one year than had been cumulatively sterilized in the U.S. over several decades.

    While Eugenics quickly lost favor in the US as a result of this, it appears to be finding renewed support within many genetic research circles. Now while ppl may cringe at this term, or rather the premise behind this term, consider that present day society routinely practices Eugenics; through the breeding of our animals (be they for racing, show, or slaughter), our agriculture, and even with humans -- though we prefer to use such euphemisms as amniocentesis and test tube babies.

    For a walk down Eugenics history lane, see Image Archive on the American Eugenics Movement, and to see just how alive and well it is, see the Doaln DNA Learning Center at Cold Spring Harbor.

    The mission of the Dolan DNA Learning Center is to prepare students and families to thrive in the gene age. We envision a day when all elementary students are exposed to principles of genetics and disease risk; when all high school students have the opportunity to do hands-on experiments with DNA; and when all families have access to genetic information they need to make informed health care choices.



    Forensic Psychology Portal

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
    He does not say if the gardener lost his job or had any other consequences of his actions. Once in a rage, especially if it's PTSD fueled, I doubt the gardener gave it any thought.

    And it would require some sociopathic tendencies to be able to do the things they did at the death camps, and we know sociopathy and psychopathy can be genetic. Therefore, that is reasonable for someone to draw that conclusion outside of any Nazi beliefs. (And she did not get an abortion, we was sterilized.)
    The Holocaust was a project of thousands, if not millions, of Germans (and was enabled by the silence of tens of millions more), and plenty of Poles and other nationals as well. No doubt some were genetically predisposed to sociopathy, but that hardly explains the phenomenon. I think you need to look to sociology instead of individual psychology to explain that era.

    But Goering's niece seems very much a product of her era, in which much was made of the German "race" and its attributes. Her sterilization is consistent with the beliefs she was taught. (Or maybe she just didn't like children; but that would render this discussion irrelevant.)

    If it seemed I was accusing her of harboring secret Nazi sympathies, I apologize. In fact, I see her as one more victim of National Socialism, indoctrinated into false--or at least inadequate--beliefs about inherited traits.

    ***

    As for young Master Hoess, his story may be true. But I assume I'm allowed to have a gut reaction just like everyone else at WS.

    There's a principal in fiction and drama that T.S. Eliot called the "objective correlative." It's the overt act or thing that reveals an invisible feeling, concept, etc. In Pygmalion and My Fair Lady, Henry Higgins and Eliza Doolittle are objective correlatives of their respective social classes; but a correlative can be a thing, an action, anything overt that reveals what cannot be seen directly.

    People have an instinctive tendency to construct objective correlatives when trying to explain difficult-to-describe thoughts and feelings. I think Hoess may have done that here--which isn't to say he is "lying" (except in the most narrow definition of the word). Rather he may have invented an example to illustrate the truth of how it felt to be he as a child. I.e., he felt beaten or he felt as if everyone wanted to beat him to exact revenge.

    It may not be coincidental that the attacker in the story is a gardener and not a headmaster or other students, they being much easier to track down and interview.

    Nonetheless, this is all speculative on my part. I believe I've been clear about that from the beginning.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowraiths View Post
    Eugenics originated in Britian with Sir Francis Galton just before the turn of the century. And it really took root in the U.S. For example, following are some excerpts from the American Eugenics Society around 1922.

    "Those least fit to carry on the race are increasing most rapidly ... Funds that should be used to raise the standard of our civilization are diverted to maintenance of those who should never have been born." -- Margaret Sanger

    Harry Laughlin, President, American Eugenics Society 1928-29. Also zealous superintendent, Eugenics Record Office. Perhaps the most ambitious promoter of laws to sterilize "hereditary defectives" and to restrict the inflow of "worthless" immigrants..

    President Roosevelt once complained that the American middle class was committing "racial suicide" by not having enough children. Hence, the eugenics movement was pitched to the educated public as an element of family management.

    It was the eugenics programs of the early 1900s -- ABA (1903), OER (1910), AES (1923) -- that is thought to have led up to the Holocaust atrocities.

    The Nazis took inspiration from the American eugenicists. *After a German sterilization law passed in 1933, the Nazis sterilized more mental patients in one year than had been cumulatively sterilized in the U.S. over several decades.

    While Eugenics quickly lost favor in the US as a result of this, it appears to be finding renewed support within many genetic research circles. Now while ppl may cringe at this term, or rather the premise behind this term, consider that present day society routinely practices Eugenics; through the breeding of our animals (be they for racing, show, or slaughter), our agriculture, and even with humans -- though we prefer to use such euphemisms as amniocentesis and test tube babies.

    For a walk down Eugenics history lane, see Image Archive on the American Eugenics Movement, and to see just how alive and well it is, see the Doaln DNA Learning Center at Cold Spring Harbor.

    The mission of the Dolan DNA Learning Center is to prepare students and families to thrive in the gene age. We envision a day when all elementary students are exposed to principles of genetics and disease risk; when all high school students have the opportunity to do hands-on experiments with DNA; and when all families have access to genetic information they need to make informed health care choices.
    In my experience, the term eugenics is usually reserved to refer to humans, while other terms, such as "animal husbandry", are applied to animals. This isn't to say the principle isn't essentially the same.

    If eugenics with regards to humans is making a comeback, then those bringing it back are misguided. Genetic research increasingly shows that genes, particularly with regard to behavior, only suggest tendencies, traits that only become active under certain environmental conditions.

    I don't know that scientists have the answers yet, but if you don't want your kid to be a sociopath, you will eventually be able to prevent that eventuality by the way you raise him or her.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    Nonetheless, this is all speculative on my part. I believe I've been clear about that from the beginning.
    I actually agree with you. When I first read it it also set off my hinky meter. I guess I know that many people create stories and myths in order to make the jew appear evil. It has happened throughout history. Which is why I believe many are uncertain or even afraid of the "evil jews". This may be another example of just that. And it might not but I believe we're free to give observations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danaya View Post
    I actually agree with you. When I first read it it also set off my hinky meter. I guess I know that many people create stories and myths in order to make the jew appear evil. It has happened throughout history. Which is why I believe many are uncertain or even afraid of the "evil jews". This may be another example of just that. And it might not but I believe we're free to give observations.
    Thanks. It was very lonely so far out there with what I admit are mere speculations.

    But I should point out that not all Auschwitz inmates were Jews. Jews were the majority (at least in the death camp; there was also a work camp and a POW camp near by), but others were Poles, gays, gypsys, Marxists, etc. So if Hoess' story is true, the gardener needn't necessarily be Jewish. (I don't have the data in front of me, but it isn't my impression that many Jews stayed in Germany or Poland after WWII. Those few who survived emigrated elsewhere.)

    Of course, your point was that the "Revenge of the Gardener" played into certain stereotypes and myths about Jews, so if the story is an invention, who knows what all Hoess was trying to accomplish? To be clear, I accept that young Hoess was also a victim of his grandfather, even if not to the same degree as the thousands who were killed.

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