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Thread: NY - Etan Patz, 6, New York, 25 May 1979 - #1

  1. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfgodot View Post
    Since we're discussing - and rightly - the lessons learned in the intervening years since Etan disappeared and the unlikelihood of involvement in this crime by those participating in the gallery space, the real taboo still looms: that we have also learned, since 1979, that family involvement is the most likely factor when children disappear.

    I certainly don't think that that was the case here. But it's curious - if understandable - that we've sort of tip-toed around even a general discussion of that topic in the Patz case. If the case occurred today? I think most would first look at the family.
    If I recall correctly from my reading, Etan's father was pretty thoroughly vilified by the investigative team for a period in a "we know you did it" fashion.
    always remembering

    Jacob Wetterling, missing from St. Joseph, Minnesota since October 22, 1989

    Jeanna North, missing from West Fargo, North Dakota since June 28, 1993

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  3. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfgodot View Post
    Since we're discussing - and rightly - the lessons learned in the intervening years since Etan disappeared and the unlikelihood of involvement in this crime by those participating in the gallery space, the real taboo still looms: that we have also learned, since 1979, that family involvement is the most likely factor when children disappear.

    I certainly don't think that that was the case here. But it's curious - if understandable - that we've sort of tip-toed around even a general discussion of that topic in the Patz case. If the case occurred today? I think most would first look at the family.
    At one point tonight, I think I remember reading an article or maybe an excerpt from Lisa Cohen's book that some members of LE did think the Patz were suspicious. I'm not sure what changed the mind of LE, but when I read that they FULLY cooperated with police- I believe Julia even underwent hypnosis to see what else she could remember from that morning. I was also extremely impressed that they never moved, kept the same phone number, and kept a written record of every single phone call they received relating to Etan.

    IMO they behaved how parents with missing children "should" behave- cooperate fully, do what LE asks, be honest, etc.

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  5. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by passionflower View Post
    Hate to say this but could Ramos and Miller of been 'friends"?
    They both knew Etan?
    I bet they did know each other. For one, we know the Patz family knew this Miller guy, and the babysitter hired to walk Etan to school during the bus strike was dating Ramos. They were both handymen. Odds are they did know each other and sadly both probably were accomplices.

    Sadly I read the babysitter's son was sexually abused by Ramos and grew up a troubled man and committed suicide. Ramos apparently used women to get to their sons. Monster.

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  7. #279
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    We have seen cases where the HRD dogs were able to detect the remains after 30 years, even when moved.
    They believe Jean Zapata's body was moved more than once. The first dogs found a scent in 2004, she went missing in 1976.

    http://forthemissing.blogspot.com/20...an-zapata.html

    The 36-year-old Madison woman and mother of three disappeared in 1976, but the case only returned to the spotlight in December 2004.

    December 2004: Cadaver Dogs Search Former Home
    Two cadaver dogs searching the basement of Jean Zapata's former home and indicated hits of human remains. A human hair was taken from the site, police said.

    August 2005: Cadaver Dogs Search Storage Locker
    Two cadaver dogs separately indicated hits of decomposing human remains at a Sun Prairie storage locker that Eugene Zapata had rented.

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  9. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Reannan View Post
    One more post before I go to bed and try to forget about this case for a while... does the child in the picture from the SoHo Playgroup in the 1970's IN THE BASEMENT they are currently tearing apart, not look like Etan?? Am I crazy? I honestly welcome your opinions... that is why I am posting the comparison....
    One of the reasons Ramos was of interest - on his person were photos of young boys. No photo of Etan but all boys in the photos had a similar look to Etan.
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  11. #281
    Daily Mail has an extensive article with older photos of the family + new photos of persons of interest and the current search for Etan.



    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-missing.html
    Attached Images Attached Images
    ~Human Beings Are All Members Of One Body.
    They Are Created From The Same Essence.
    When One Member Is In Pain,
    The Others Cannot Rest.
    If You Do Not Care About The Pain Of Others,
    You Do Not Deserve To Be Called A Human Being.~


    A Quote From 13th Century Famous Persian Poet Saadi Shirazi

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  13. #282
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    According to several articles, Othniel (Othnie) Miller was escorted today from the site. Apparently he lives in Brooklyn and is 75 yrs. old now. Neighbors have described him as a man of God in at least one article I read. Since they are saying "Man of God" makes me believe he is very involved in church. All the more reason to not want to die with a guilty in conscience if he killed Etan.

    In one article I read Miller was a family friend and when questioned after Etan's disappearance he told LE they could dig up the newly surface concrete floor in the basement but LE would have to pay to replace it and the Patz's also told them not to dig it up since he was a family friend.

    My bet it is him and it is a death bed/last minute confession. I bet Ramos isn't even involved.
    Last edited by karen7868; 04-20-2012 at 07:11 AM.

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  15. #283
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    I will be shocked if its Miller. Ramos was last seen with Etan. The Patz family have been through he...

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  17. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by arielilane View Post
    I will be shocked if its Miller. Ramos was last seen with Etan. The Patz family have been through he...

    BBM

    I think you are mistaken. It has never been reported that Ramos and Etan were seen together. Ramos' girlfriend had been hired by Etan's parents to walk him to school during the bus strike, but Ramos was never seen with Etan.

    It's been reported by Etan's parents that Etan had helped Miller the night before he disappeared and Miller paid him a dollar. So there is definately a connection between Miller and Etan.

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  19. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by carole View Post
    BBM

    I think you are mistaken. It has never been reported that Ramos and Etan were seen together. Ramos' girlfriend had been hired by Etan's parents to walk him to school during the bus strike, but Ramos was never seen with Etan.

    It's been reported by Etan's parents that Etan had helped Miller the night before he disappeared and Miller paid him a dollar. So there is definately a connection between Miller and Etan.
    I agree. Ramos went by the name "Michael" and from what I have read, the only thing that has physically linked Ramos to Etan was the girlfriend named Sandy, and having pictures of blonde headed boys that only resembled Etan. Ramos was known as the dranpipe man because that is where he lived. I have yet to see anything reported saying Ramos was seen with Etan; however, OM was seen with Etan the night before his disappearance.

    I will not be shocked if OM is the killer.

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  21. #286
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    Updated 04/19/2012 11:26 PM
    Police Search SoHo Basement For Possible New Clues In Etan Patz Case
    By: Dean Meminger

    As FBI and NYPD investigators could take days to search a SoHo basement for possible new evidence in the case of six-year-old Etan Patz, who was reported missing back in 1979, published reports on Thursday said a Brooklyn handyman is a person of interest in the case.

    Law enforcement officials would not comment on whether Othneil Miller, a 75-year-old handyman who worked in the basement of 127 Prince Street, was involved in the case of the disappearance of Etan Patz.

    The boy was last seen leaving his family's SoHo loft in 1979 for his first solo trip to the school bus stop.


    Photo of Miller at link...
    http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stori...etan-patz-case

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  23. #287
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    Joseph Gelfand, retired NYPD detective, still thinks Jose Ramos killed Etan Patz
    Recalls long involvement with tragic case
    Comments (1)

    By Joanna Molloy / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
    Published: Thursday, April 19, 2012, 8:40 PM
    Updated: Friday, April 20, 2012, 12:06 AM


    Joseph Gelfand was a NYPD officer when he arrested Jose Antonio Ramos in August 1982 in Times Square.

    He still believes Ramos is Etan Patz' killer, but says if another suspect is found and convicted "at least the parents have closure."

    Gelfand, a soft-spoken man who retired as a detective first grade, still wears the police legion honor society pin on his lapel. Here’s his amazing story.

    "I was assigned to the Pimp Squad, but one night a detective from the Pedophilia Squad needed a partner to head over to Times Square. He was showing me how they work cases when I spotted this guy talking to three blond-haired kids.

    We later found out they were two 12-year-olds with an 11-year-old.



    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...#ixzz1sZwgVf60

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  25. #288
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    I do not think there is any evidence that Etan was ever seen with Ramos, but Ramos himself has repeatedly stated that he thinks it was Etan that he picked up that day, and that he put him on a 'bus to visit his Aunt'. According to a statement in the article linked below, Ramos worked for Miller, so they had to know each other. Given that fact, and the fact that Ramos was dating Etan's babysitter, it seems logical that Etan would have known Ramos at some point.

    "Chief suspect Jose Ramos did work for Miller at the time of disappearance"

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1sa6yFJ7m
    Last edited by Reannan; 04-20-2012 at 08:11 AM. Reason: spelling..

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  27. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reannan View Post
    I do not think there is any evidence that Etan was ever seen with Ramos, but Ramos himself has repeatedly stated that he thinks it was Etan that he picked up that day, and that he put him on a 'bus to visit his Aunt'. According to a statement in the article linked below, Ramos worked for Miller, so they had to know each other. Given that fact, and the fact that Ramos was dating Etan's babysitter, it seems logical that Etan would have known Ramos at some point.

    "Chief suspect Jose Ramos did work for Miller at the time of disappearance"

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1sa6yFJ7m
    BBM. Wow, it is starting to look like they were in cahoots together. At first, I was thinking that Ramos was doing a John Mark Karr, just saying he attempted to molest Etan just to get his name in the papers.

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  29. #290
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    The New York Times article below states that "He once admitted to investigators that he was with Etan on the day the boy vanished, but he denied abducting him or killing him."

    http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/ref...atz/index.html

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  31. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reannan View Post
    I do not think there is any evidence that Etan was ever seen with Ramos, but Ramos himself has repeatedly stated that he thinks it was Etan that he picked up that day, and that he put him on a 'bus to visit his Aunt'. According to a statement in the article linked below, Ramos worked for Miller, so they had to know each other. Given that fact, and the fact that Ramos was dating Etan's babysitter, it seems logical that Etan would have known Ramos at some point.

    "Chief suspect Jose Ramos did work for Miller at the time of disappearance"

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1sa6yFJ7m
    I haven't seen it reported in the US that Ramos and Miller knew each other.

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  33. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by karen7868 View Post
    According to several articles, Othniel (Othnie) Miller was escorted today from the site. Apparently he lives in Brooklyn and is 75 yrs. old now. Neighbors have described him as a man of God in at least one article I read. Since they are saying "Man of God" makes me believe he is very involved in church. All the more reason to not want to die with a guilty in conscience if he killed Etan.

    In one article I read Miller was a family friend and when questioned after Etan's disappearance he told LE they could dig up the newly surface concrete floor in the basement but LE would have to pay to replace it and the Patz's also told them not to dig it up since he was a family friend.

    My bet it is him and it is a death bed/last minute confession. I bet Ramos isn't even involved.
    Unreal back then there wasn't a lot know about these things, today they would have dug that up immediately. Family friend would have been the first suspect. The man paying kids a dollar to help him - yup suspect number one!

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  35. #293
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    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/ny...ains.html?_r=1


    This article was already posted up thread a bit but I am wondering about this quote...

    Sniped & BBM
    In recent days, according to the law enforcement official, Mr. Miller was interviewed by agents with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and when the possibility was raised that the boy had been buried in the basement, he blurted out, “What if the body was moved?” the official said.
    What do you all think about him saying “What if the body was moved?”
    ------------------------------------------------------------


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  37. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by carole View Post
    I haven't seen it reported in the US that Ramos and Miller knew each other.
    Yeah, I'd wait until some MSM confirmed this. I don't trust the Daily Mail, it's a tabloid.

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  39. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mendara View Post
    Unreal back then there wasn't a lot know about these things, today they would have dug that up immediately. Family friend would have been the first suspect. The man paying kids a dollar to help him - yup suspect number one!
    Had a bad case of insomnia last night so had a chance to research this case.

    I read at least 2 articles that when this case reopened a couple of years ago that Etan's mother, Julie, was the one that told them to look at Miller.

    She must have had a gut instinct and after years of seeing what we do now on TV/news, that friends and family are the first we look at today, thanks in part to Susan Smith (first case I remember involving a mother killing her children).

    Maybe her hindsight was making it clearer to her that friends cannot be trusted.

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  41. #296
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  43. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by necco View Post
    Yeah, I'd wait until some MSM confirmed this. I don't trust the Daily Mail, it's a tabloid.
    Apparently that info's from another tabloid, albeit one in the U.S. - only other place I can find it is in the New York Daily News:
    But sources said Jose Ramos, the jailed child molester long considered the prime suspect in the Patz case, worked as a handyman for Miller.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.1064138

    Tabloids do, however, frequently have excellent sources when it comes to crime stories, which are a large part of their bread and butter. Not saying this one will pan out, but they shouldn't be readily dismissed.

    As always, we shall see.

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  45. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by carole View Post
    I haven't seen it reported in the US that Ramos and Miller knew each other.

    The night before, Miller was seen handing Etan a $1 bill as salary for his business “help.” But sources said Jose Ramos, the jailed child molester long considered the prime suspect in the Patz case, worked as a handyman for Miller.

    Ramos, through his job, likely had access to Miller’s basement workshop at 127B Prince St. — right on the path of Patz’s last trip, the source said.


    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...#ixzz1sakEGp9G

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  47. #299
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    I really hope they do find his remains so his family can finally lay him to rest. I'm betting Miller killed him.

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    A characteristically well-written, thoughtful article from The New Yorker's Amy Davidson, which emphasizes what meganx3xo posted above (@ #259):

    Etan’s parents never moved, in case he ever came back; they still live on Prince Street. They never changed their phone number, because he’d memorized it, and they wanted him to be able to call. As years went by, dreams about rescue gave way to ones of survival. Maybe he had been taken to Mexico or North Dakota and been through things that would make life before he was six seem like a dream until, one day, a string of numbers would come back to him, like a safe-cracker’s code to the past, and he would dial it.
    LOOKING FOR ETAN PATZ

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