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  1. #1
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    Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #13

    Please continue here.



    Attention Please!


    Before you begin,....in the last thread we had to remove several posts. If you don't agree with another poster, just move on to the next post.

    Remember, attack the post and not the poster. This thread isn't about other posters, it's about Amanda Knox and her appeal. It seems they're going to court in just a couple of days. It would be a shame if we had to close this thread and you didn't have anywhere to discuss this case.

    The bottom line is, please be nice to your fellow posters. If they don't agree, just agree to disagree and move on.

    Thank you,
    fran

  2. #2
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    I was wondering, does anyone know if Knox and Sollecito still have a court date this Saturday, even with the 40 day postponement? And if so, what will be discussed? Thanks.

    ETA:I know the original schedule had a court date for Sat. the 21, but not sure if the postponement has changed this. Oh, sorry!!! I just now saw that Fran the Moderator says they are! Thanks!
    Last edited by SMK; 05-19-2011 at 08:45 AM.

  3. #3
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    It's odd, but I was looking at PMF forum briefly, and someone had brought up the 1980s Haysom murders ( 2 honors students at the University of Virginia , Elizabeth, 20, and Jens, 18, nerdy boy with glasses , became lovers, killed her parents.) I recall the case, and seeing it on court TV in the early 1990s. What is shocking to me, is that it all came down to a bloody footprint on a mat. I was just looking at it, and it reminds me of the question of RG vs RS print on the bath mat. It seems that JS got 2 life sentences with almost no evidence. The picture of the bloody footprint is on the link below. But the sole reason I bring this up, is that I am amazed that there was little to no evidence, but she got 90 years and he got 2 life sentences. Worries me a bit RE Knox and Sollecito.


    There were no eyewitnesses. No murder weapon was recovered. Of the two prime suspects, only Haysom's fingerprints (she lived there before college) - not Soering's - were found at the scene.

    Interviews with jurors after the verdict indicated that the jury was closely divided and was swayed in the end by a smeared, bloody, sock-covered footprint recovered from the house. A state forensic witness laid a transparent overlay of Soering's footprint over it, indicating a similarity. It was the first Virginia case in which such evidence had been admitted.

    "It fits like a glove," the prosecutor said in his closing argument.
    http://hamptonroads.com/2007/02/no-h...ws-how-survive

    *of course, there was no third party like Rudy Guede.......
    Last edited by SMK; 05-19-2011 at 01:18 PM.

  4. #4
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    I think jurors confuse footprints with fingerprints, and "consistent with" with "a match."

    Not that footprints can't be as unique as fingerprints, it just appears they often aren't. Imagine if an "expert" testified that fingerprints weren't identifiably unique, but were "the same size as" the defendant's fingertips. He'd be laughed out of court! Yet the same sort of testimony is accepted with regard to footprints.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    I think jurors confuse footprints with fingerprints, and "consistent with" with "a match."

    Not that footprints can't be as unique as fingerprints, it just appears they often aren't. Imagine if an "expert" testified that fingerprints weren't identifiably unique, but were "the same size as" the defendant's fingertips. He'd be laughed out of court! Yet the same sort of testimony is accepted with regard to footprints.
    Right , the comparison shows the absurdity! In any case, I am assuming that the 2 U of VA students were in fact guilty, as there were no other suspects. We have Rudy Guede in this AK and RS case, which makes a world of difference!!

  6. #6
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    I had asked on IIP what would be the issue and subject of this Saturday's court appearances for Knox and Sollecito, and was told that the court needs to question the policewoman Napoliani to ask more RE Toto? and that they also need to officially grant the extension; and perhaps something stated officially in public about what they expect the experts to receive from the Forensic Science police. Of course Curt Knox is saying they will not give all that is requested. Anyone know anything more about Saturday?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    It's odd, but I was looking at PMF forum briefly, and someone had brought up the 1980s Haysom murders ( 2 honors students at the University of Virginia , Elizabeth, 20, and Jens, 18, nerdy boy with glasses , became lovers, killed her parents.) I recall the case, and seeing it on court TV in the early 1990s. What is shocking to me, is that it all came down to a bloody footprint on a mat. I was just looking at it, and it reminds me of the question of RG vs RS print on the bath mat. It seems that JS got 2 life sentences with almost no evidence. The picture of the bloody footprint is on the link below. But the sole reason I bring this up, is that I am amazed that there was little to no evidence, but she got 90 years and he got 2 life sentences. Worries me a bit RE Knox and Sollecito.


    There were no eyewitnesses. No murder weapon was recovered. Of the two prime suspects, only Haysom's fingerprints (she lived there before college) - not Soering's - were found at the scene.

    Interviews with jurors after the verdict indicated that the jury was closely divided and was swayed in the end by a smeared, bloody, sock-covered footprint recovered from the house. A state forensic witness laid a transparent overlay of Soering's footprint over it, indicating a similarity. It was the first Virginia case in which such evidence had been admitted.

    "It fits like a glove," the prosecutor said in his closing argument.
    http://hamptonroads.com/2007/02/no-h...ws-how-survive

    *of course, there was no third party like Rudy Guede.......
    I watched that the other day. I think Elizabeth's testimony against Jens was critical. She kept a detailed diary about wanting to kill her parents and that was found when they were arrested for fraud in England. During questioning as a witness, without a lawyer (legal in the UK), Jens confessed but later claimed that it was out of love for Elizabeth and to keep her out of the electric chair. His confession was contested in the US courts because it was against US law to be questioned without a lawyer, but the judge kept the confession in. Elizabeth also confessed to her involvement, but said that she was only musing about murdering her parents and Jens took it to the level of murder without her agreement. She expected to get off by blaming Jens. During his trial, he said that he was innocent and she murdered her parents. The footprint was critical in his conviction, but there was also his confession, and Elizabeth's testimony.

    I suspect that if Knox was tried in the US, with her confession to being in the cottage at the time of the murder, attempts to wiggle out of the questioning by blaming Patrick ... lack of alibi, bloody footprint belonging to Raffaele, staged break in, luminol prints in the cottage and so on, she would be found guilty.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    I was wondering, does anyone know if Knox and Sollecito still have a court date this Saturday, even with the 40 day postponement? And if so, what will be discussed? Thanks.

    ETA:I know the original schedule had a court date for Sat. the 21, but not sure if the postponement has changed this. Oh, sorry!!! I just now saw that Fran the Moderator says they are! Thanks!
    The trial addresses the police complaint against Amanda for alleging that they denied her food/water, and physically abused her between 11:30 PM and 1:45 AM (Nov 5/6), at which time she confessed to be present in the cottage at the time of the murder and accused Patrick of murder.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    I think jurors confuse footprints with fingerprints, and "consistent with" with "a match."

    Not that footprints can't be as unique as fingerprints, it just appears they often aren't. Imagine if an "expert" testified that fingerprints weren't identifiably unique, but were "the same size as" the defendant's fingertips. He'd be laughed out of court! Yet the same sort of testimony is accepted with regard to footprints.
    I don't think barefoot prints are used in the same way as fingerprints, but moreso in the same way as LNC DNA. The evidence in itself cannot be used to identify someone, but if the suspect pool has been reduced to a handful of people, the evidence can be matched to one individual in that smaller sample group.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    I watched that the other day. I think Elizabeth's testimony against Jens was critical. She kept a detailed diary about wanting to kill her parents and that was found when they were arrested for fraud in England. During questioning as a witness, without a lawyer (legal in the UK), Jens confessed but later claimed that it was out of love for Elizabeth and to keep her out of the electric chair. His confession was contested in the US courts because it was against US law to be questioned without a lawyer, but the judge kept the confession in. Elizabeth also confessed to her involvement, but said that she was only musing about murdering her parents and Jens took it to the level of murder without her agreement. She expected to get off by blaming Jens. During his trial, he said that he was innocent and she murdered her parents. The footprint was critical in his conviction, but there was also his confession, and Elizabeth's testimony.

    I suspect that if Knox was tried in the US, with her confession to being in the cottage at the time of the murder, attempts to wiggle out of the questioning by blaming Patrick ... lack of alibi, bloody footprint belonging to Raffaele, staged break in, luminol prints in the cottage and so on, she would be found guilty.
    Well, it is clear that if she were arrested in America, it would not necessarily have been OK for her - Paul Cortez was found guilty even though there were no witnesses and none of his DNA, and there was even another jealous boyfriend in the background. The key is, do not ever get arrested for murder, ever, anywhere....


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    Well, it is clear that if she were arrested in America, it would not necessarily have been OK for her Paul - Cortez was found guilty even though there were no witnesses and none of his DNA, and there was even another jealous boyfriend in the background. The key is, do not ever get arrested for murder, ever, anywhere....
    I think the biggest mistakes Amanda made after the murder were first, to not take the situation seriously, and secondly to not tell the truth. A murder investigation anywhere is very serious, but we have heard that Amanda was doing things that would not seem normal in any country during a murder investigation. Regarding the truth, the alibi is a big problem. Amanda and Raffaele provided an alibi, but police found it to be full of holes. When the pair were given more opportunities to clear it up, they started lying. That's a problem in any country.

    She should have listened to her aunt, her mom, her dad, her uncle and left the country as soon as it was becoming apparent that she and Raffaele were becoming the focus of the investigation.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    I think the biggest mistakes Amanda made after the murder were first, to not take the situation seriously, and secondly to not tell the truth. A murder investigation anywhere is very serious, but we have heard that Amanda was doing things that would not seem normal in any country during a murder investigation. Regarding the truth, the alibi is a big problem. Amanda and Raffaele provided an alibi, but police found it to be full of holes. When the pair were given more opportunities to clear it up, they started lying. That's a problem in any country.

    She should have listened to her aunt, her mom, her dad, her uncle and left the country as soon as it was becoming apparent that she and Raffaele were becoming the focus of the investigation.
    I agree she should have acted more self-possessed. That is the trouble with adopting that "Seattle hippie will o' the wisp" persona. They should not have lied, and simply insisted they were home. She should have calmly said that the text from Patrick was nothing more than what she said, "see you later" meaning, "will see you again". She should have demanded an attorney, and clammed up. The staged break in is questionable. It simply does not pack the punch of other staged break ins I have read about ( I can think of 2).

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    Right , the comparison shows the absurdity! In any case, I am assuming that the 2 U of VA students were in fact guilty, as there were no other suspects. We have Rudy Guede in this AK and RS case, which makes a world of difference!!
    It does. The UVA students also fled the jurisdiction. Most importantly, each accuses the other of the crime and admits to aiding in the cover-up. (RS may have wavered on alibiing AK in one statement; but once they were out from under the pressure of interrogation, AK and RS went back to alibiing each other.)

    BTW, thank you for that link. I did see a "48 Hours" or similar program on that case a few years ago. The program really portrayed the accused daughter as a sociopath and her boyfriend as a fool. He may be telling the truth at this point, but it's hard for me to be too outraged: even he admits to a good deal of "moral responsibility" for helping his girlfriend cover up two murders he nows says she committed.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    I watched that the other day. I think Elizabeth's testimony against Jens was critical. She kept a detailed diary about wanting to kill her parents and that was found when they were arrested for fraud in England. During questioning as a witness, without a lawyer (legal in the UK), Jens confessed but later claimed that it was out of love for Elizabeth and to keep her out of the electric chair. His confession was contested in the US courts because it was against US law to be questioned without a lawyer, but the judge kept the confession in. Elizabeth also confessed to her involvement, but said that she was only musing about murdering her parents and Jens took it to the level of murder without her agreement. She expected to get off by blaming Jens. During his trial, he said that he was innocent and she murdered her parents. The footprint was critical in his conviction, but there was also his confession, and Elizabeth's testimony.

    I suspect that if Knox was tried in the US, with her confession to being in the cottage at the time of the murder, attempts to wiggle out of the questioning by blaming Patrick ... lack of alibi, bloody footprint belonging to Raffaele, staged break in, luminol prints in the cottage and so on, she would be found guilty.
    I think it might depend a lot on where she was tried. Courts in some jurisdictions would be more skeptical of bogus evidence than others. The Southeastern states and rural areas have much higher conviction rates.

    But it's basically true that odds here are heavily slanted in favor of the prosecution; there's something like a 90%+ conviction rate for cases that go to trial.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    I don't think barefoot prints are used in the same way as fingerprints, but moreso in the same way as LNC DNA. The evidence in itself cannot be used to identify someone, but if the suspect pool has been reduced to a handful of people, the evidence can be matched to one individual in that smaller sample group.
    I know that's the theory, otto. I was speculating that juries don't always make those distinctions. In the UVA case, insisting that a SOCK print was the deciding factor in a case is telling and troubling!

    But even if the jury does remember that footprints are only inculpatory to "one individual in that smaller sample group," how can we be sure that ILE correctly reduced the suspect pool?

    In Perugia, how many footprints did ILE take for purposes of comparison? They didn't seem to bother with DNA for comparison and exclusion, so I doubt they took many. I think they just looked or pressured their employees until they found an "expert" who would insist the footprint was that of RS.

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