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  1. #1
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    Would the Ramseys have left the house if JonBenet was never found?

    I've always wondered if John never found JonBenet's body, would they have just up and left the house leaving JonBenet in the basement? The kidnappers said they'd call between 8 and 10 am, John found JonBenet at 1pm. This is what makes me think the Ramseys had something to do with it, John couldnt take the agony and waiting around anymore because he knew JonBenet was in the basement, thats why he headed straight down there. He wanted to "find" JonBenet and get it over with. After JonBenet was found & after the Ramseys morned over her they just up and left, Patsy vowed never to come back to that house. They didnt even make sure their daughter got to the morgue. If Patsy was so worried about her baby, she would have stayed right in that house until they took her baby to the morgue. They left her behind like she was an old couch. If Linda never told John to search the house, would the Ramsey have just left JonBenet for someone else to find?
    Aunt Pam: JonBenet why don't you put your shoes on? JonBenet: Because I want to feel the rhythm of the earth under my feet.

  2. #2
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    You have to remember the Rs were forced to leave the house. After the body of their daughter was found, the home was sealed until LE completed their "investigation". They had no choice.
    I have always felt that the Rs did not realize that they would actually have to leave the house. I feel they thought that LE would do their investigation, and that LE would leave, at which time the Rs would have then called police and claimed that JB had been "returned to them" dead, the kidnappers having killed her because they called police. That was going to be their story. When it became apparent that LE wasn't going to leave the home until the house was cleared of everyone- they HAD to "find" her themselves. MOO.

    After the "kidnapping" had been revealed as a murder, the parents got 'outta Dodge, both physically and emotionally. The emotional distancing enabled the physical distancing. In a way, they developed the mind-set that JB had been "taken" from them (via accidental death). The prior AND acute sexual abuse made the staging necessary, and the possibility exists that she was killed at the hands of a family member other than a parent, which may explain the extraordinary lengths the staging went to. She became a memory before she had even been taken to the morgue. The reality of the brutalized corpse in the basement was too much to deal with. It was a way of coping with the horror of her death and the activities that followed.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
    I've always wondered if John never found JonBenet's body, would they have just up and left the house leaving JonBenet in the basement? The kidnappers said they'd call between 8 and 10 am, John found JonBenet at 1pm. This is what makes me think the Ramseys had something to do with it, John couldnt take the agony and waiting around anymore because he knew JonBenet was in the basement, thats why he headed straight down there. He wanted to "find" JonBenet and get it over with. After JonBenet was found & after the Ramseys morned over her they just up and left, Patsy vowed never to come back to that house. They didnt even make sure their daughter got to the morgue. If Patsy was so worried about her baby, she would have stayed right in that house until they took her baby to the morgue. They left her behind like she was an old couch. If Linda never told John to search the house, would the Ramsey have just left JonBenet for someone else to find?
    Shanny,
    They planned to leave by plane that morning. Burke was over at the White's, so they were prepared to flee interstate and leave Burke and JonBenet behind.

    The staging hides the molestation evidence, also the staging is not realistic, imo, its not really intended to function as a detail in an intruder attack. I think someone amended a prior staging.

    I do not think this person was Patsy, otherwise she would have had a better story to tell when interviewed.

    If Linda never told John to search the house, would the Ramsey have just left JonBenet for someone else to find?
    Looks that way. Some people think John moved JonBenet from another location, into the wine-cellar after Fleet White had checked the wine-cellar.

    The Ramsey's probably planned the Abduction Scenario assuming if the BPD bought it, then everyone would assume the house was empty, so they could fly away , no questions asked.

    John must have known something that we do not know, otherwise there is no reason for him to find JonBenet, whatever he knew gave him the confidence to find JonBenet.

    The abduction was staged so the Ramsey's could flee Colorado, otherwise JonBenet may have been reported discovered dead and molested in her bedroom, victim of an intruder assault.


    JonBenet was intended to be left alone in the wine-cellar abandonded to her fate!


    .

  4. #4
    They wanted to leave the house so badly that John made a beeline for the basement...
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    You have to remember the Rs were forced to leave the house. After the body of their daughter was found, the home was sealed until LE completed their "investigation". They had no choice.
    I have always felt that the Rs did not realize that they would actually have to leave the house. I feel they thought that LE would do their investigation, and that LE would leave, at which time the Rs would have then called police and claimed that JB had been "returned to them" dead, the kidnappers having killed her because they called police. That was going to be their story. When it became apparent that LE wasn't going to leave the home until the house was cleared of everyone- they HAD to "find" her themselves. MOO.

    After the "kidnapping" had been revealed as a murder, the parents got 'outta Dodge, both physically and emotionally. The emotional distancing enabled the physical distancing. In a way, they developed the mind-set that JB had been "taken" from them (via accidental death). The prior AND acute sexual abuse made the staging necessary, and the possibility exists that she was killed at the hands of a family member other than a parent, which may explain the extraordinary lengths the staging went to. She became a memory before she had even been taken to the morgue. The reality of the brutalized corpse in the basement was too much to deal with. It was a way of coping with the horror of her death and the activities that followed.
    I can go along with the reasoning in the first paragraph. I've always had a problem with the notion of all that staging to cover up a BDI scenario. It's just too much, IMO. Burke wasn't going to be prosecuted at that age.

    As UKGuy points out, a plan to leave her there to be discovered later (how much later? ) by someone else, begs the question - Where was the body during the earlier search of the house?

    I've always wondered if the body was moved before being "found".
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    Shanny,
    They planned to leave by plane that morning. Burke was over at the White's, so they were prepared to flee interstate and leave Burke and JonBenet behind.

    The staging hides the molestation evidence, also the staging is not realistic, imo, its not really intended to function as a detail in an intruder attack. I think someone amended a prior staging.

    I do not think this person was Patsy, otherwise she would have had a better story to tell when interviewed.


    Looks that way. Some people think John moved JonBenet from another location, into the wine-cellar after Fleet White had checked the wine-cellar.

    The Ramsey's probably planned the Abduction Scenario assuming if the BPD bought it, then everyone would assume the house was empty, so they could fly away , no questions asked.

    John must have known something that we do not know, otherwise there is no reason for him to find JonBenet, whatever he knew gave him the confidence to find JonBenet.

    The abduction was staged so the Ramsey's could flee Colorado, otherwise JonBenet may have been reported discovered dead and molested in her bedroom, victim of an intruder assault.


    JonBenet was intended to be left alone in the wine-cellar abandonded to her fate!


    .
    Perhaps what was known was simply the fact that LE was hanging around all day and apparently wasn't ever going to leave? Maybe it wasn't confidence so much as desperation? The body may have been hidden where a cursory search would indicate the child was missing - in accordance with the kidnapping scenario? If the plan called for removing the body from hiding to later claim that the kidnappers had "returned" her dead, that plan couldn't be put into effect - because the hiding spot was an unlikely place for the "kidnappers" to place her upon returning her dead? Did the killer have to sit and wonder what would happen if BPD brought in tracking dogs? The dogs would have lead the cops straight to the hiding place.

    The "finding" always strikes me as a desperate "wits end" thing.

    Fleeing the state while JBR is still "thought" to be a kidnap victim would have looked very bad.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

  7. #7
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    I do not believe JR planned to leave BR behind. His call to the pilot was for the REMAINING family (he, Patsy and BR).
    This was still Plan B to me. This was AFTER the body was found, and I still feel the Rs fully expected that the police would leave the house, and leave THEM alone, while they looked for the "killer". I honestly think the Rs were shocked to find that they were suspects. JR actually would have left his daughter behind in the house and gotten on that plane if he could have. I have a theory that this may have been suggested by one of his lawyer friends- once they were out of state, they LE wouldn't have been able to speak to them in person at all. While the lawyers certainly knew they shouldn't have been allowed to leave, and also knew how suspicious their leaving was, if it had worked, it would have been a great way to get away from LE. They couldn't be forced to return to speak to police either. An arrest warrant would have been needed and AH wasn't about to do that.
    If the Rs were REALLY worried about the "safety" of the rest of the family, police would have protected them or they could have hired their own security.
    But as we know, they weren't really worried.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    You have to remember the Rs were forced to leave the house. After the body of their daughter was found, the home was sealed until LE completed their "investigation". They had no choice.
    I have always felt that the Rs did not realize that they would actually have to leave the house. I feel they thought that LE would do their investigation, and that LE would leave, at which time the Rs would have then called police and claimed that JB had been "returned to them" dead, the kidnappers having killed her because they called police. That was going to be their story. When it became apparent that LE wasn't going to leave the home until the house was cleared of everyone- they HAD to "find" her themselves. MOO.

    After the "kidnapping" had been revealed as a murder, the parents got 'outta Dodge, both physically and emotionally. The emotional distancing enabled the physical distancing. In a way, they developed the mind-set that JB had been "taken" from them (via accidental death). The prior AND acute sexual abuse made the staging necessary, and the possibility exists that she was killed at the hands of a family member other than a parent, which may explain the extraordinary lengths the staging went to. She became a memory before she had even been taken to the morgue. The reality of the brutalized corpse in the basement was too much to deal with. It was a way of coping with the horror of her death and the activities that followed.
    Pretending the kidnappers brought her back is a gruesome idea, but it makes sense. A lot of sense. What a steely frame of mind, that would take. shudder. MOO.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I do not believe JR planned to leave BR behind. His call to the pilot was for the REMAINING family (he, Patsy and BR).
    This was still Plan B to me. This was AFTER the body was found, and I still feel the Rs fully expected that the police would leave the house, and leave THEM alone, while they looked for the "killer". I honestly think the Rs were shocked to find that they were suspects. JR actually would have left his daughter behind in the house and gotten on that plane if he could have. I have a theory that this may have been suggested by one of his lawyer friends- once they were out of state, they LE wouldn't have been able to speak to them in person at all. While the lawyers certainly knew they shouldn't have been allowed to leave, and also knew how suspicious their leaving was, if it had worked, it would have been a great way to get away from LE. They couldn't be forced to return to speak to police either. An arrest warrant would have been needed and AH wasn't about to do that.
    If the Rs were REALLY worried about the "safety" of the rest of the family, police would have protected them or they could have hired their own security.
    But as we know, they weren't really worried.
    Maybe in a panic, they wanted to leave, but I have a hard time imagining PR NOT having that funeral. MOO

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    You have to remember the Rs were forced to leave the house. After the body of their daughter was found, the home was sealed until LE completed their "investigation". They had no choice.
    I have always felt that the Rs did not realize that they would actually have to leave the house. I feel they thought that LE would do their investigation, and that LE would leave, at which time the Rs would have then called police and claimed that JB had been "returned to them" dead, the kidnappers having killed her because they called police. That was going to be their story. When it became apparent that LE wasn't going to leave the home until the house was cleared of everyone- they HAD to "find" her themselves. MOO.

    After the "kidnapping" had been revealed as a murder, the parents got 'outta Dodge, both physically and emotionally. The emotional distancing enabled the physical distancing. In a way, they developed the mind-set that JB had been "taken" from them (via accidental death). The prior AND acute sexual abuse made the staging necessary, and the possibility exists that she was killed at the hands of a family member other than a parent, which may explain the extraordinary lengths the staging went to. She became a memory before she had even been taken to the morgue. The reality of the brutalized corpse in the basement was too much to deal with. It was a way of coping with the horror of her death and the activities that followed.
    idk about all this, because I'm not sure how much premeditaion was involved. Maybe the plan was to just leave her there, thinking noone would go in the house for months or even longer. just lock up the house and go...worry about what to do later? that would be risky, but if someone else did find her, they could just go with the flow. Several years ago, I dreamed that I murdered an ex bf, (who I hadn't even thought of in years), and hid the body at the end of my backyard, under a bunch of grass. Even in the dream, I was frantic and constantly checking to see if he was still hidden, and never stopped worrying about getting caught. It was an awful dream and after waking up, the most horrible feeling stayed with me. shame mixed with disgust for myself, a really dirty feeling. I honestly don't see how murderers can keep from confessing. MOO.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrishope View Post
    Perhaps what was known was simply the fact that LE was hanging around all day and apparently wasn't ever going to leave? Maybe it wasn't confidence so much as desperation? The body may have been hidden where a cursory search would indicate the child was missing - in accordance with the kidnapping scenario? If the plan called for removing the body from hiding to later claim that the kidnappers had "returned" her dead, that plan couldn't be put into effect - because the hiding spot was an unlikely place for the "kidnappers" to place her upon returning her dead? Did the killer have to sit and wonder what would happen if BPD brought in tracking dogs? The dogs would have lead the cops straight to the hiding place.

    The "finding" always strikes me as a desperate "wits end" thing.

    Fleeing the state while JBR is still "thought" to be a kidnap victim would have looked very bad.
    Chrishope,
    Perhaps what was known was simply the fact that LE was hanging around all day and apparently wasn't ever going to leave?
    Yes it could be that, prior to being asked to search the house along with Fleet White, Linda Arndt had noticed that John Ramsey's behaviour had changed he had become agitated and twitchy.

    If the plan called for removing the body from hiding to later claim that the kidnappers had "returned" her dead, that plan couldn't be put into effect - because the hiding spot was an unlikely place for the "kidnappers" to place her upon returning her dead?
    Exactly.


    The "finding" always strikes me as a desperate "wits end" thing.
    Not quite, take into account Linda Arndt asking he undertake a search, so his rationale for explaining the find is part luck and at Arndt's request.

    If you assume that Plan A was to effect an abduction scenario then their hope is that everyone including LEA will concentrate their efforts outwith the Ramsey house.





    .
    Last edited by UKGuy; 06-01-2011 at 02:02 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I do not believe JR planned to leave BR behind. His call to the pilot was for the REMAINING family (he, Patsy and BR).
    This was still Plan B to me. This was AFTER the body was found, and I still feel the Rs fully expected that the police would leave the house, and leave THEM alone, while they looked for the "killer". I honestly think the Rs were shocked to find that they were suspects. JR actually would have left his daughter behind in the house and gotten on that plane if he could have. I have a theory that this may have been suggested by one of his lawyer friends- once they were out of state, they LE wouldn't have been able to speak to them in person at all. While the lawyers certainly knew they shouldn't have been allowed to leave, and also knew how suspicious their leaving was, if it had worked, it would have been a great way to get away from LE. They couldn't be forced to return to speak to police either. An arrest warrant would have been needed and AH wasn't about to do that.
    If the Rs were REALLY worried about the "safety" of the rest of the family, police would have protected them or they could have hired their own security.
    But as we know, they weren't really worried.
    DeeDee249,
    Here is a partial timeline of relevant events:

    Schiller writes that about 7:00 AM, Fleet White and John Fernie took Burke Ramsey and collected John Fernie's children enroute to Fleet White's house where Burke stays.

    Paranthetically this may also be a point in the timeline when John Ramsey had an oportunity to review any forensic evidence since he searched the basement between 7:00 AM and 8:00 PM.

    Around 13:05 PM JonBenet's body is found.

    At around 13:30 PM John Ramsey placed a call to his pilot and is overheard telling him to prepare the plane for a flight to Atlanta.

    Schiller writes that around 15:00 PM Fleet White made a call to John Ramsey's pilot canceling the flight to Atlanta.

    Assuming that the abduction scenario was premeditated then so must Burke's removal be too, along with the guest invitations.

    John Ramsey come 13:30 PM is ready to leave Colorado for Atlanta ASAP!

    Note that the opportunity for JR to review the evidence comes with Burke out of the house along with FW and JF. Linda Arndt arrives just after 8:00 PM.

    We all know that JR always knew more than his version of events presumed. In the event that JonBenet had never been discovered and the parents never flew to Atlanta. JonBenet cannot be returned, particularly to the wine-cellar, so that leaves either abandonment or relocating her corpse somewhere well outside of the house?



    .

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrishope View Post
    I can go along with the reasoning in the first paragraph. I've always had a problem with the notion of all that staging to cover up a BDI scenario. It's just too much, IMO. Burke wasn't going to be prosecuted at that age.

    As UKGuy points out, a plan to leave her there to be discovered later (how much later? ) by someone else, begs the question - Where was the body during the earlier search of the house?

    I've always wondered if the body was moved before being "found".
    Chrishope,
    I've always wondered if the body was moved before being "found".
    There is enough circumstantial evidence to support this belief, but not enough to fully justify it.

    For me it would explain JR's confidence in deciding to find JonBenet, remember this was something he had an opportunity to accomplish earlier that morning?

    I reckon either JonBenet was moved or she may have been intended to have been partially redressed thus explaining why her Barbie Gown should be in the wine-cellar?

    John knew some circumstance had changed so found JonBenet then minutes later phoned to arrange a flight out of Colorado, which would have placed him and Patsy outwith BPD's legal jurisdiction.

    The Atlanta flight had never been canceled it was always on the cards, until Fleet White phoned to nix it.



    .

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    DeeDee249,
    Here is a partial timeline of relevant events:

    Schiller writes that about 7:00 AM, Fleet White and John Fernie took Burke Ramsey and collected John Fernie's children enroute to Fleet White's house where Burke stays.

    Paranthetically this may also be a point in the timeline when John Ramsey had an oportunity to review any forensic evidence since he searched the basement between 7:00 AM and 8:00 PM.

    Around 13:05 PM JonBenet's body is found.

    At around 13:30 PM John Ramsey placed a call to his pilot and is overheard telling him to prepare the plane for a flight to Atlanta.

    Schiller writes that around 15:00 PM Fleet White made a call to John Ramsey's pilot canceling the flight to Atlanta.

    Assuming that the abduction scenario was premeditated then so must Burke's removal be too, along with the guest invitations.

    John Ramsey come 13:30 PM is ready to leave Colorado for Atlanta ASAP!

    Note that the opportunity for JR to review the evidence comes with Burke out of the house along with FW and JF. Linda Arndt arrives just after 8:00 PM.

    We all know that JR always knew more than his version of events presumed. In the event that JonBenet had never been discovered and the parents never flew to Atlanta. JonBenet cannot be returned, particularly to the wine-cellar, so that leaves either abandonment or relocating her corpse somewhere well outside of the house?



    .
    I don't see why she couldn't have been "returned". There was no need to place her outside at all. That would be risky- they could have been seen. All they had to do was agree on a story about where she was "returned". They could have said anything- that she was left on the porch, etc and they brought her in. With no LE around (so they had hoped), there was no way to prove that she had been in he basement all along. Of course, PROPER forensic testing would have been able to tell if she had been in a car, the woods, the porch, etc.
    Since she never left the house anyway, there was nothing to indicate otherwise.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    Chrishope,


    Not quite, take into account Linda Arndt asking he undertake a search, so his rationale for explaining the find is part luck and at Arndt's request.

    If you assume that Plan A was to effect an abduction scenario then their hope is that everyone including LEA will concentrate their efforts outwith the Ramsey house.

    .
    Yes, there was luck involved, and that helped explain the "find" - just doing as the police requested. But he made a beeline for the body, and found her where others had looked before. It would have been just as reasonable to start the search upstairs.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

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