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  1. #1
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    CA - Fire and police crews watch man drown, ‘Handcuffed by policy'

    An apparently suicidal man waded into San Francisco Bay on Monday, stood up to his neck, and waited. As the man drowned, police, fire crews, and others watched idly from the shore.
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...atch-man-drown

    In my opinion, these men need to hand in their badges and certifications and take a course in basic humanity. This is past disgusting.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trident View Post
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...atch-man-drown

    In my opinion, these men need to hand in their badges and certifications and take a course in basic humanity. This is past disgusting.
    Just food for thought. If they are not allowed, due to job rules, to rescue someone in the water, and they do, that could have major ramafications. Say they sucessfully rescue the guy. The guy then sues. Due to the fact that they went against policy, they are laid off/put on leave/fired as well as having to find their own legal representation. So now you have men who, worst case scenario, don't have jobs and are defending themselves in a lawsuit. They may lose everything and have a difficult time finding another job. While the humane thing to do would be to save the man, their hands may very well have been tied if you look at the possible fall out from not following the rules of your job.

    I'm not looking to argue, just presenting a different side to look at.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyn1001 View Post
    Just food for thought. If they are not allowed, due to job rules, to rescue someone in the water, and they do, that could have major ramafications. Say they sucessfully rescue the guy. The guy then sues. Due to the fact that they went against policy, they are laid off/put on leave/fired as well as having to find their own legal representation. So now you have men who, worst case scenario, don't have jobs and are defending themselves in a lawsuit. They may lose everything and have a difficult time finding another job. While the humane thing to do would be to save the man, their hands may very well have been tied if you look at the possible fall out from not following the rules of your job.

    I'm not looking to argue, just presenting a different side to look at.
    I do appreciate your side, I gave that some thought myself. However, how could I face God, my fellow man, myself, if I let someone drown without lifting a finger. Sometimes we have to throw off the shackles placed on us by buruacracy, and think/act like human beings. We are human, are we not? When we stop caring about our fellow man then the evil of this world has programmed us to their specs, and this seems to be a real test case of how they're doing - seems evil is doing very well.

    My opinion only

  4. #4
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    This absolutely sickens me. How can anyone stand by and watch someone die? Our world seems to have become such an unfeeling, uncaring and lonely place. I cannot get over this...it hurts to think about it. This makes me so sad.

  5. #5
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    According to the article, the man stood in the water for nearly an hour. (That in itself is quite a feat, given how cold the water must have been this time of year!)

    At what point did the bystanders realize he was suicidal and how did they know?

  6. #6
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    wow, and the guy would stop and look back, probably wondering if someone would rescue him. if he was having any thoughts about deciding to live instead i bet the fact that they all just stood there and did nothing cemented his thought to go through with the deed. he probably felt like a total failure that no one would even save him.

    so what did they do, grab his body after they waited for him to die? wow. is clean up cheaper than saving a live person?
    OCCAM'S RAZOR : "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyM View Post
    wow, and the guy would stop and look back, probably wondering if someone would rescue him. if he was having any thoughts about deciding to live instead i bet the fact that they all just stood there and did nothing cemented his thought to go through with the deed. he probably felt like a total failure that no one would even save him.

    so what did they do, grab his body after they waited for him to die? wow. is clean up cheaper than saving a live person?
    No, but it is safer. If I remember my lifeguard training (45 years ago), a drowning person is a very serious threat to take a would-be rescuer down with him. The article mentions a lack of equipment--maybe they didn't have the equipment that protects rescuers who are trying to save panicked people.

    I'm not defending the decision to stand and do nothing. I'm just saying the article we have is rather vague in a number of respects.

  8. #8
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    I have mixed feelings on this - I think something should have been done to try to get the guy out of the water - but on the other hand I totally get the safety hazards of trying to save someone who doesn't want to be saved out of water.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...a135456D21.DTL little more info and "expert" opinions.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyM View Post
    wow, and the guy would stop and look back, probably wondering if someone would rescue him. if he was having any thoughts about deciding to live instead i bet the fact that they all just stood there and did nothing cemented his thought to go through with the deed. he probably felt like a total failure that no one would even save him.

    so what did they do, grab his body after they waited for him to die? wow. is clean up cheaper than saving a live person?
    This story is disgusting. Truly disgusting. I could not have stood there and watched. If I had attempted to rescue him and he fought me, well at least I would know I tried. I cant help but think the glances back could have been a silent call for help. I wonder if anyone even attempted to talk to him? This will bother me for a while.

  10. #10
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    another article said he was already in the water when the step mom called the police - he's a big guy - I'm not sure how you would subdue him in the water and be safe...sad all the way around.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by adnoid View Post
    Gotta have rules. That's why we're here - to follow rules.
    you know...swat teams wait people out for hours, and sometimes they are successful and sometimes they are not, same with police and firefighters who work with people on ledges - they always have to protect themselves.

    I think the issue is how long it took for Raymond to succumb.

  12. #12
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    It does seem odd that in almost an hour, they couldn't get somebody into a wet suit and out to at least talk to the guy, even if they didn't have the equipment and training to force the guy into shore.

  13. #13
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    More devil's advocate....

    If there were other's standing on shore who, from the sounds of it, had the same amount of training and equipment as the professionals (none), why didn't they help?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyn1001 View Post
    More devil's advocate....

    If there were other's standing on shore who, from the sounds of it, had the same amount of training and equipment as the professionals (none), why didn't they help?
    I don't know what discussions took place, but if I walked up to a situation where firemen were present, my first instinct would be to stand back and out of their way, not to jump in and intervene.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    I don't know what discussions took place, but if I walked up to a situation where firemen were present, my first instinct would be to stand back and out of their way, not to jump in and intervene.
    Agreed. However, I probably would have asked why the heck they weren't doing anything. If they responded that they were not allowed, I would have done something. Heck, even if I stood there for 30 minutes and they did nothing I probably still would have stepped in.

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