06-03-2011, 09:20 PM #1
Will the SA Introduce the Critical Missing Motive--KCís vengeful hostility toward CA
Legal commentators on every channel keep harping on two huge problems with the SA's case:
(1) There is no proof of how Caylee died (Cause of Death). We'll ignore this here.
(2) KC had no real, compelling motive to murder Caylee. If KC wanted to be free and "single" all she had to do was give Caylee to doting grandparents, Cindy and George, to raise.
This week, the jurors heard a tape in which KC herself tells YM that if she wanted to be rid of Caylee, she'd have given Caylee to Cindy to raise--and that will surely make sense to the jurors.
I'm afraid that if jurors aren't made aware of the truly toxic, combative relationship between KC and Cindy, these jurors will never be "convinced beyond a reasonable doubt" that KC could, would, and did murder Caylee.
Do you think the SA is going to bring out the truth about KC's battles with Cindy? Are there any witnesses who could testify to this? Who are they? What could they describe--and will they do it or become foregetful? Is there any sworn testimony on anyone's deposition that could be used to force them to testify? What are the chances that Cindy or George would admit the truth if re-called to testify?
Right now, I can only think of one person with firsthand knowledge who'd be willing to testify, and that's the neighbor who loaned KC the shovel. He said he heard screaming matches with KC doing the screaming.Hawk. My BFF
06-03-2011, 09:33 PM #2
Thanks for bringing this up Friday.
I am trying to figure out how the SA could bring some of this in without offending the jury. The last time they saw Cindy she was folded over in agonizing grief on the witness stand. I know what you're saying though, the resentment and jealousy between these two especially where Caylee was concerned is a big piece of the puzzle, and there really should be some sort of motive suggested.
I know that the SA tried to use some of the texts with Tony L as motive but that never materialized.Neighborhood Watch is...
NOT the Vigilante Police
06-03-2011, 09:40 PM #3
I have also wondered if the SA was going to present any evidence along this line of thought. Throughout the presentation of KC's behavior, there were hints of the KC-CA conflict, particularly from Amy who verbalized KC as calling her mom crazy and her witnessing their interaction the night of July 15. Then we have Lee, who reported that CA had called KC an unfit mother, and then there is KC stating maybe she is a spiteful beotch. This, of course, is not enough alone for the jury to have as much insight as we have had over the last 3 years. Since the SA does not have to prove motive, and we are heading into the scientific evidence leg of the SA case, I'm doubting that anything will be introduced. For one thing, the only evidence they can access is from the neighbors. The neighbors would not know the intricacies of the argument and would probably carry little weight, and objections by the defense on grounds of relevancy may be sustained. CA has denied these events, and KC can only be called to the stand by the DT. SA questions on cross will be limited to what the DT brings up on direct, so IMO, it's unlikely any of this will be introduced. Unfortunately.
Last edited by shgrbkr; 06-03-2011 at 09:42 PM. Reason: sp.
06-03-2011, 09:47 PM #4
If there were a way to take the videos of Caylee being filmed by Casey, it would show the lack of interaction between her and her baby and the baby's reaction to it. There are a few. Shows to me, she never expressed herself as a loving mother to her daughter unless someone else was around. But at least once, even when there were others around, I perceived it on the video where she is tickling her on the floor, but it wasn't long before Caylee was ready to get away from her. Casey just couldn't pull it off and kids don't lie. They react.
I'm sure there are also a few witnesses that would be willing to testify as to the jealousy between CA and ICA, her demand for attention from her mother (as witnessed in the jailhouse tapes, the one of her Mom making Chili at home and she couldn't be there) is a good example. What about Meeeeeeee????? Me, me and more me. I hope the prosecution doesn't dismiss the chance to show this was her motive. She never wanted her to begin with.My posts are my opinion only.....
06-03-2011, 09:47 PM #5
The State does not have to prove motive. In KC's case.....motive could be cummulative, thus difficult to narrow down and prove.
IMO, the SAO is being cautious by presenting testimony that supports motive to varying degrees.
Some jurors may identify motive as "KC's desire for freedom".
Some may see the motive of "KC's resentment toward her mother for taking such a HUGE role in Caylee's life".
Others may simply interpret that based on KC's cell calls and CA's statement that she was unable to watch Caylee the evening of June 16th, that KC snapped.
Unless the SAO has a strong manner in which to validate motive, they have done a fabulous job of suggesting multiple motives, and left it to the jurors to interpret.
06-03-2011, 10:01 PM #6
I think this is going to be a big hurdle. Most of us have read evrything there is out there about this case, and so we see how cold hearted and narcissistic Casey is. But I do not think the jury is going to really get that. I think they are going to do what most people do---assume it was an accident cover up.
But I do not think they will believe the DT's bogus story and I am hoping they will take into account that she was willing to throw so many others under the bus in trying to escape blame herself. To allow her attorney to tell such vile lies about her father and brother just to keep people from knowing the truth about what happened is pure evil.
So I am hoping that the jury will get to the truth about who she was in the round about way. Ok, it was an accident. So THEN WHAT HAPPENED? The evil black heart she had when she dealt with the aftermath of that 'accident' shows us who she is. And may make them wonder if she is actually a murderer. imoďEvery day that they donít find something is good for me.ď Billie Dunn
06-03-2011, 10:08 PM #7
Did Lee testify that when Caylee was born the doctors handed her to Cindy instead of ICA and ICA was upset? I don't remember hearing the testimony but could've missed it.
If so, a juror (hopefully 12) could conclude that ICA never bonded with Caylee so Caylee didn't matter to her really.
06-03-2011, 10:12 PM #8
I think having Caylee was a double edge sword for KC. On one hand she tied her down and kept her from doing whatever she wanted. On the other hand she was something to use to control her parents and guarantee a home and food.
I think after Caylee died KC had a reality check and realized that while she may have her freedom she no longer had her meal ticket and way to manipulate her parents. That is probably one of the many reasons she couldn't let her parents know she was gone.
I think maybe the happiest KC might have been is when she was out on bond. She got all the attention she wanted and had no responsibilities at all. If only her parents didn't bug her about what happened to Caylee.
The only thing she lacked was her freedom to party and stay with AL.
06-03-2011, 10:13 PM #9Registered User
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Everything you need to know about ICA can be seen on (1) her first video appearance when she was first arrested, wearing the blue hoodie- she smirks, and (2)her first phone call home from Jail.
Listen to her as she speaks to her mother from Jail, the contempt and loathing she feels for Cindy just drips off her.
That's all the psychological assessment needed.
06-03-2011, 10:15 PM #10
Well I think that Amy did a good job the other day by testifying that she was a little cautious of meeting CA after ICA had continuously described her as "crazy". She also went on and on about how ICA was mad at her mom all the time and mentioned that one text where she said she was definitely going out with the gang that weekend 'cause CA "owed her". (BTW, that also highlighted the fact there was no nanny whatsoever, when ICA wanted to go out with her friends she was totally reliant on her mom. And, according to Amy, when she stayed with RM throughout February - April, that happened on an average of once a week and the group just stayed in to accommodate ICA's lack of a babysitter. I'm starting to think she left home once before, during this time, and told CA she "wanted her space" or something but still was asking her to babysit constantly).
We've also seen how she played with her mom like a cat with a mouse, having CA cook dinner quite a few times claiming that JH would be there to meet her family.
JG of course will be a good one because he's mentioned it before (not to mention her claim of breaking up with him because he loved Caylee more than her) and AD also recounted in her depo the fit ICA threw when CA opened Caylee's presents at her second birthday party. The video of that has been playing on various channels and it shows both GA and CA watching little Caylee and making sure she doesn't fall or run into anything while ICA is nowhere to be seen - probably off kvetching with her friends.
SP, CA's mom, summed it up best when she (I paraphrase) said something like "maybe Casey hated her mother more than she loved her little girl".
I really don't think the state will have to try too hard. ICA laughing at her mom for crying in the jailhouse tape played today highlighted her cruelty. I also think they will put it together that Caylee was obviously ICA's meal ticket and her only leverage for controlling her parents. I think she punished them by withholding her before.
Kiomarie also mentioned the animosity between the two in her early depo. I'm sure her friend Ryan, who knew her since childhood, could also relate just how far back that love-hate relationship went and how toxic it became.
We may not even have to rely on the state though. The defense realizes I think, even in their dim-bulbed way, that to emphasize the bad relationship with CA and ICA would be an obvious motive (although they have tacitly inferred she is responsible for not protecting ICA from the molestation by her dad and brother, and ICA's own words to RA in her jailhouse letters indicate CA not only did not believe her "claims" but told her it was probably why she was such a little whore. JB may think he has minimized that to some extent by simply making CA responsible for leaving the ladder up, but he made a really big mistake when he made CA come off the stand and check her daughter out physically to make her look like an idiot for not knowing ICA had been seven months pregnant. You could see that both women were looking daggers at each other. So the defense also might be foolish enough to include her in the "mitigating" stuff they keep awkwardly introducing throughout the guilt phase.
The jury has also never seen one iota of compassion from ICA toward her mom as she sat stony-faced while CA broke down on the stand and sobbed. They didn't get to see the little tirade she had when CA left that was obviously directed toward her, but I'm guessing they can feel her hatred. That meltdown on the jailhouse tape when her parents are innocently asking her for information - the fact that LA already testified that when it all hit the fan and he asked his sister just why she was withholding Caylee and she said "I guess I'm just a spiteful little biotch" (especially since the jury knows now that, according to JB, the baby was already dead and ICA knew perfectly well) is also going to stick in their minds. As is the giant charade she went through in jail while her parents were spending every spare minute looking for Caylee and giving her every opportunity to confess. She was enjoying it all and since the jury knows she was sitting in jail knowing perfectly well Caylee was dead - instead of wondering if she did - I think they will be horrified at her callousness and self-centered attitude and willing to believe she is cold-blooded enough to remove anything that would possibly mean anything to her parents.
Maybe what I'm saying is that ICA herself is coming across just splendidly as someone who is calculating, vengeful and capable of doing anything at all to punish her parents, including throwing them under the bus for an "accident" after the fact. I just don't think motive will be a problem for them at all, even if they don't really know how bad it was between the two women.
The state is really doing a great job with their chronological format for this case, and I think some of these witnesses will come in after the forensics - as if all the personal testimony is some kind of sandwich, because these are people who came forward during the later investigation after it was clear to LE and the state that there was no flipping nanny and the car was definitely a deathmobile.
Perhaps some of the jury will see they had a volatile relationship. But I'm thinking that CA has done a marvelous job so far of exonerating any blame for herself. She has always insisted they got along fine and there were never any horrible fights, which I think a jury will read as "you are an idiot to stick up for that girl, but at this point I wouldn't have blamed you for choking her". Especially if those bank records come in. ICA had stolen several thousand dollars from her mother from late 2007 through spring of 2008. People are not going to think that anybody sane would have let that go, or if they did, then it was only ICA who had the horrible problem with her mom, that CA was perfectly justified in cracking down on her lying, thieving, unfit mother of a daughter."Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" - Voltaire
06-03-2011, 10:16 PM #11
Surely they won't bring anything up about Cindy, unless it a tale that Casey told her about abuse and was called a liar. To bring up the tale of jealousy, they'd be opening the door to talk about all the thefts from Cindy's credit cards and bank accounts. They'd have to bring up how Cindy was abused from getting screamed at to being used for babysitting all the time. All the lies and thefts in 2 years would be brought out. Probably some that we don't even know about. I think the jealousy scam was just gaslighting Cindy to make her feel guilt, confusion, and deflect off of what Casey was doing wrong, and only came up as the major theft was to be discovered and Caylee was already gone. It was probably given as the reason that Casey left, but in reality it was that Caylee was dead. The Myspace thing turned into an urban myth of Cindy being dysfunctional and taking over Caylee from moment of birth. If Casey was so jealous, then she must have been just as jealous of her brother, grandparents, Jesse's parents, Amy, etc. because she used and stole from them all. A narcissist is resentful, jealous, and looks for weakness and things to use against others, and that is what happened to Cindy. I wish they would bring all this out.
06-03-2011, 10:18 PM #12
I think the SA's entire package of evidence will be enough to convict her, with or without a motive and cause of death.LACI & CONNER - GONE BUT NEVER FORGOTTEN!
Laci's Archived Thread (Read Only):
06-03-2011, 10:23 PM #13
Jean Couty witnessed two such fights, Casey yelling obscenities at Cindy. She is on the witness list. Jesse Grund also witnessed a raging Cindy running Casey down in front of him.
Last edited by LancelotLink; 06-03-2011 at 10:44 PM. Reason: Wrong neighbor.
06-03-2011, 10:23 PM #14Registered User
- Join Date
- Aug 2005
Cindy's myspace is important to show motive:
Thursday, July 03, 2008 Current mood: http://x.myspace.com/images/blog/moods/iBrads/sad.gif distraught
She came into my life unexspectedly, just as she has left me. This precious little angel from above gave me strength and unconditional love. Now she is gone and I don’t know why. All I am guilty of is loving her and providing her a safe home. Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankfull for all of the love and support given to her. A mother’s love is deep, however there are limits when one is betrayed by the one she loved and trusted the most. A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant, the mother says without hesitation it will be ok. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began. First it seemed harmless, ah, love is blind. A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change. This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change, but instead more lies more betrayal. What does the mother get for giving her daughter all of these chances? A broken heart. The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space. No money, no future. Where did she go? Who is now watching out for the little angel?
- Caylee was getting in the way of the most important thing in her life, partying. I think Cindy was tired of being used and stopped babysitting as much as she had been. Ciindy was even calling Casey in the middle of the night and telling her to bring Caylee home.
- Tony didn't want Caylee spending the night and he didn't want girls.
- Casey's own words...she is a spiteful bi*ch. She would never turn Caylee over to Cindy and lose her free meal ticket. She loved to torment Cindy with Caylee. She told the military guy that she would take Caylee away for days at a time to get back at her mother.
- Casey got a tattoo that means 'the good life' shortly after she killed Caylee. She also got a manicure. Not exactly the actions of a grieving mother but one that was beyond happy not to have to care for a child anymore.
- Casey's wrote in her jail letters...'now the bit** knows how it feels' referring to her mother. She also wrote some other nasty stuff about her mother.
I still hope somehow the SAs will be able to get the myspace post into evidence.
Last edited by jon_burrows; 06-03-2011 at 10:34 PM.
06-03-2011, 10:29 PM #15
Re-watched when they had Cindy stand up and look at KC to see if she looks "bloated" (omg..haha...but I digress). Anyone notice how CA directs KC to turn around and KC totally obeys? So here we are 3 years later and with KC's (supposed) no contact with her mom and she automatically responds to CA's direction? Watch the video again. I was dumbfounded that CA still had this control over KC still!
I think KC does have fear with her mom and need for her approval. Has got nothing to do with George. No sexual abuse. Just absolute envy of Cindy's love for Caylee. MOTIVE!
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