View Poll Results: who molested/abused JB?

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  • JR

    117 27.73%
  • BR

    109 25.83%
  • JAR

    21 4.98%
  • a close family friend

    25 5.92%
  • a stranger/stalker a la JMK

    16 3.79%
  • PR-it wasn't sexual abuse,it was corporal punishment

    73 17.30%
  • she wasn't previously abused/molested

    61 14.45%
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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    no,but them not being present doesn't make them stupid nor unprofessional.
    maybe they've seen the photos and the autopsy report.
    how many experts don't take the stand in each trial and didn't attend the autopsy,doesn't make them less credible.

    if we're talking about an ERODED hymen of a 6years old....do you really need pictures or to be present to see it with your own eyes in order figure it out?
    if the autopsy report says there were OLD scars down there....do you really need someone who was present to translate it to you?
    I never suggested they were stupid, however photographs do not and can not take the place of actually being present at an Autopsy, End of.

    JB may have had an eroded Hymen for many reasons, sexual abuse is only one POSSIBILITY, this is why meyer erred on the side of caution her knew he could not say with any certainty there was prior sexual abuse.


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  3. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by tennison View Post
    I never suggested they were stupid, however photographs do not and can not take the place of actually being present at an Autopsy, End of.

    JB may have had an eroded Hymen for many reasons, sexual abuse is only one POSSIBILITY, this is why meyer erred on the side of caution her knew he could not say with any certainty there was prior sexual abuse.
    The autopsy does not say that no chronic molestation occurred.Most factual analyses of this case have been based on an interpretation of the autopsy. Thus, your inability to present evidence that no molestation occurred is manifestly refuted by the majority of experts who analysed the evidence available and said abuse did occur.

    Either JonBenet was molested or she was not. The evidence clearly says she was. JonBenet's genital opening was twice the size of normal 6 year old girls;She had clear 'fiddling' in the 7 o;clock position and birefringement material found. Further, there was chronic inflammation (and Meyer does note that) as well as an acute injury whereby blood was drawn.

    You were caught out being disingenuous when you posted a quote from the Carnes ruling trying to somehow conflate it to be what the autopsy says.The Carnes ruling is likewise an opinion from a judge who did not have access to all the evidence. For example, Cyril Wecht did not testify at that case.

    The autopsy merely presents the clinical facts of what happened. It doesn't opine. It's job is to record in a clinical matter the 'effects' first and foremost. The 'cause's of those 'effects' are only stated if the coroner is manifestly sure/confident in what he is saying. Perhaps a better coroner would have been more forthright in his opinion than Meyer. Who knows.

    Doctors, coroners and criminal pathologists drew their conclusions from the findings of the autopsy.Most of these experts came to the conclusion : JonBenet was chronically and sexually molested.
    William Wallace: They may take our lives, but they’ll never take our FREEDOM!!


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  5. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by tennison View Post
    I never suggested they were stupid, however photographs do not and can not take the place of actually being present at an Autopsy, End of.

    JB may have had an eroded Hymen for many reasons, sexual abuse is only one POSSIBILITY, this is why meyer erred on the side of caution her knew he could not say with any certainty there was prior sexual abuse.
    If it were ONLY the eroded hymen, tennison, I might agree with you.
    Vae Victus! (May the conquered suffer!)
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  7. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by tennison View Post
    I never suggested they were stupid, however photographs do not and can not take the place of actually being present at an Autopsy, End of.
    are you suggesting Meyer is the only one who can be right about this because he was present?

    JB may have had an eroded Hymen for many reasons, sexual abuse is only one POSSIBILITY, this is why meyer erred on the side of caution her knew he could not say with any certainty there was prior sexual abuse.
    a weird crime ,the killer's nr.1 priority is to redress and wipe the genital area of the victim off,you got acute sexual damage,an eroded hymen and OLD scars.....yeah,those old scars were definitely inflicted by herself while playing with mommy's tampons.....and that's why her hymen was eroded as well,right


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  9. #110
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    btw,didn't Meyer say he had more but didn't write it down because he saves it for the trial?I know I read this somewhere and even posted it a while ago.


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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    btw,didn't Meyer say he had more but didn't write it down because he saves it for the trial?I know I read this somewhere and even posted it a while ago.
    Meyer was asked to re-phrase at least one part. Can't remember what bit it was tho.
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  13. #112
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    It's not like Meyer is one of those you can trust in this case anyway....I myslef don't,too many screw-ups.

    Btw,I found what I was looking for,it was about the TOD

    >>>>>>>


    Wecht also questioned why there was no estimated time of death in the autopsy.

    But Meyer said it isn't unusual not to include an estimated time of death in an autopsy report.

    "The investigation is still ongoing," Meyer said. "There may be some point that comes up during the investigation that might have an influence on what that estimated time of death is. I don't like to put interpretive things in an autopsy report."

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    From a statement by Boulder County Coroner John E. Meyer, M.D.:

    "The time of an 'unwitnessed' death is very difficult to determine with any precision, and at best is an estimate based not only on autopsy findings but also on investigative information.
    "I consider estimation of time of death to be an interpretive finding rather than a factual statement, and it is not this Office's practice to include this estimate as part of any autopsy report. HUH?As has been stated in the past, it would also be inappropriate for me, as a potential expert and material witness, to make interpretive statements prior to testifying in court."

    ---------------------------------------


    BUT


    ST's book,pg 39

    "Meyer stayed only 7 minutes ,not taking the time to perform two routine procedures that would have helped establish the time of death-taking vitreous fluid from the eye and obtaining the internal body temperature."
    __________________




    it's not the only mistake he made.....remember the contaminated nail clippings.......
    I guess it was convenient for everybody that his report left us with so many unanswered questions...


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  15. #113
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    Meyer makes it sound like it's not something important,IMO it's crucial.....he basically made sure we don't have neither COD(what came first will always be an issue and could change everything) nor TOD,without this two this case is a mess.What case isn't.....

    Look at what happens in the Anthony case,I read Spitz is gonna testify on behalf of Casey,he's gonna say,hey,you got no COD,how do you know it wasn't an accident?And he's kinda right,don't you think?


    ETA:

    "The medical examiner and the police (in Orlando, Fla.) determined that the cause of death was undeterminable and the manner of death was homicide," Dr. Werner Spitz of Grosse Pointe Shores told The Detroit News.

    "If you don't know what she died of, how do you know it was a homicide?"

    http://detnews.com/article/20110616/...385/1409/rss36


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  17. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    Meyer makes it sound like it's not something important,IMO it's crucial.....he basically made sure we don't have neither COD(what came first will always be an issue and could change everything) nor TOD,without this two this case is a mess.What case isn't.....

    Look at what happens in the Anthony case,I read Spitz is gonna testify on behalf of Casey,he's gonna say,hey,you got no COD,how do you know it wasn't an accident?And he's kinda right,don't you think?


    ETA:

    "The medical examiner and the police (in Orlando, Fla.) determined that the cause of death was undeterminable and the manner of death was homicide," Dr. Werner Spitz of Grosse Pointe Shores told The Detroit News.

    "If you don't know what she died of, how do you know it was a homicide?"

    http://detnews.com/article/20110616/...385/1409/rss36
    madeleine,
    Although I like to debate what came first head injury or strangulation etc. In a sense they do not matter, since Coroner Meyer's autopsy clearly attributes COD to both the head injury and ligature strangulation. Clinically this is known as hypoxia.

    e.g. Definition
    Hypoxia (medical), a pathological condition in which the body as a whole or region of the body is deprived of adequate oxygen supply.
    On the witness stand I reckon Coroner Meyer would interpret the ligature strangulation much as most RDI theorists do, probably offering reasons why an EA interpretation could never get off the ground, and elaborating on the head injury. And it is the latter along with his interpretation of any prior molestation that would be interesting. One question an compotent prosecutor would put to Coroner Meyer might be: In your estimation, did two different people molest JonBenet, that is one prior to the night of her death, and another on the night of her death? He might also opine on the likely sequence of events, head blow followed by strangulation and its reverse.



    .


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  19. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    madeleine,
    Although I like to debate what came first head injury or strangulation etc. In a sense they do not matter,
    maybe in court or in theory it wouldn't matter much but to me it does because in my opinion strangulation first tells me it was either premeditation ,sex game gone wrong or BDI (aggressive playing,domination) and the head bash was meant to finish her off or shut her up (she was screaming)

    head bash first makes me think of other theories

    so to me it's very important which came first and I think it would be very helpful for a prosecutor as well when building the case


    One question an compotent prosecutor would put to Coroner Meyer might be: In your estimation, did two different people molest JonBenet, that is one prior to the night of her death, and another on the night of her death? .

    very interesting.IMO this could also be a defence question,to raise reasonable doubt...you can't prove that whoever molested her the day before or so was the same person who assaulted her the night of the murder
    even IF it's not likely there were 2 different persons,IMO it's not possible at all,I mean how unlucky was this little girl,2 different abusers.....

    the thing is,even if it's not likely,in a defence lawyers mind it's always "possible" as long as it raises reasonable doubt.......


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  21. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    maybe in court or in theory it wouldn't matter much but to me it does because in my opinion strangulation first tells me it was either premeditation ,sex game gone wrong or BDI (aggressive playing,domination) and the head bash was meant to finish her off or shut her up (she was screaming)

    head bash first makes me think of other theories

    so to me it's very important which came first and I think it would be very helpful for a prosecutor as well when building the case





    very interesting.IMO this could also be a defence question,to raise reasonable doubt...you can't prove that whoever molested her the day before or so was the same person who assaulted her the night of the murder
    even IF it's not likely there were 2 different persons,IMO it's not possible at all,I mean how unlucky was this little girl,2 different abusers.....

    the thing is,even if it's not likely,in a defence lawyers mind it's always "possible" as long as it raises reasonable doubt.......
    madeleine,
    maybe in court or in theory it wouldn't matter much but to me it does because in my opinion strangulation first tells me it was either premeditation ,sex game gone wrong or BDI (aggressive playing,domination) and the head bash was meant to finish her off or shut her up (she was screaming)

    head bash first makes me think of other theories

    so to me it's very important which came first and I think it would be very helpful for a prosecutor as well when building the case
    Yes I do agree.


    very interesting.IMO this could also be a defence question,to raise reasonable doubt...you can't prove that whoever molested her the day before or so was the same person who assaulted her the night of the murder
    even IF it's not likely there were 2 different persons,IMO it's not possible at all,I mean how unlucky was this little girl,2 different abusers.....

    the thing is,even if it's not likely,in a defence lawyers mind it's always "possible" as long as it raises reasonable doubt.......
    I guess thats why its a good question to ask Meyer. He would have to address the chronic and acute abuse.

    Something I forgot were all the other ancilliary injuries inflicted upon JonBenet, e.g. those unexplained bruises etc. Just wonder what Coroner Meyer's interpretation would be here?



    .


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  23. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    madeleine,

    I guess thats why its a good question to ask Meyer. He would have to address the chronic and acute abuse.

    Something I forgot were all the other ancilliary injuries inflicted upon JonBenet, e.g. those unexplained bruises etc. Just wonder what Coroner Meyer's interpretation would be here?

    .
    Too bad Mayer didn't address it himself. I think this was not an oversight. He's retired now. I wonder if this case ever came to trial, would he be compelled to testify?
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  25. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Too bad Mayer didn't address it himself. I think this was not an oversight. He's retired now. I wonder if this case ever came to trial, would he be compelled to testify?
    DeeDee249,
    I agree, no steer on the bruising or sequence of events. He would be compelled to testify. He wrote the autopsy report so he would have to give an account of that and verify whether his verbatim remarks were as such. Including whether other internal BPD forensic evidence was consistent with his report.

    He could become non-committal if he did not wish to answer hypothetical questions. He probably prefers a quiet life and says a thanks giving prayer everyday, since he has never been called as a witness for the prosecution in the case the State of Colorado vs Ramsey. Yet!


    .


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  27. #119
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    Arrow

    The other thing that seals it as John molesting her for me- is that the black fibers from his unique Israeli-made shirt were found in her panties!!! There is no innocent explanation/laundry transfer for that!
    Please help locate Mark Dribin http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ht=Mark+Dribin and Ilene Misheloff http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...lene+Misheloff and bring them home.

    Jodi, hot enough for you yet in Perryville, the only place you'll see 'till you die?? You got your wish to live in the Phoenix area for the rest of your life.
    Travis Alexander was the victim of Domestic Violence.

    JeSuisJuif
    JeSuisCharlie



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  29. #120
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    Meyer makes it sound like it's not something important,IMO it's crucial.....he basically made sure we don't have neither COD(what came first will always be an issue and could change everything) nor TOD,without this two this case is a mess.What case isn't.....

    Look at what happens in the Anthony case,I read Spitz is gonna testify on behalf of Casey,he's gonna say,hey,you got no COD,how do you know it wasn't an accident?And he's kinda right,don't you think?


    ETA:

    "The medical examiner and the police (in Orlando, Fla.) determined that the cause of death was undeterminable and the manner of death was homicide," Dr. Werner Spitz of Grosse Pointe Shores told The Detroit News.

    "If you don't know what she died of, how do you know it was a homicide?"

    http://detnews.com/article/20110616/...385/1409/rss36
    No, he's not right in the Casey Anthony case- it was NO accident that Casey murdered her by suffocation-clearly, it wasn't suicide , but we're not here to discuss that case!
    Please help locate Mark Dribin http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ht=Mark+Dribin and Ilene Misheloff http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...lene+Misheloff and bring them home.

    Jodi, hot enough for you yet in Perryville, the only place you'll see 'till you die?? You got your wish to live in the Phoenix area for the rest of your life.
    Travis Alexander was the victim of Domestic Violence.

    JeSuisJuif
    JeSuisCharlie



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