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Thread: IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #4

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    LE really confuses me on this case. We don't have access to all the POIs cell phone records, but LE does. So LE should know if JW got any phone calls, if JR got any phone calls, if JW was calling anyone, if JR was calling anyone, if any of the POIs were exhibiting unusual calling patterns, yet LE seem to have no idea what had happened to LS.
    My understanding is that LE would need warrants to access phone records or the account holders turning them over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ncbuckeyecb View Post
    Lots of people have been asking that...I have mutual friends with my roommates but sometimes I don't have their number despite knowing them for a couple of years. Sometimes due to changing my phone/losing my phone and not getting the numbers transferred correctly. Let's say my friend's name is Adam and my roommate Sarah and I are both friends with him...but she's closer to Adam than I am and she is normally the one who texts him to see if he wants to hang out/go out/come over...so I've never felt the need to store his number. Could be that JR was much closer to LS so he never put HT's number in his phone?
    Or maybe if LS called like HT said that JR told her, JR didn't have HT's number in his phone but did have DR's number. LS maybe not have known HT's number because it was stored in her phone. Either way, it could be the person calling DR was looking to talk to HT.

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  5. #203
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    @Btown
    I would give those photos to police to look at,I am sure they don't have all the layout you have which is amazing by the way.It might help them.Pictures do tell a story.

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  7. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltzingmatilda View Post
    Exactly!!! Why didn't she call her roommate HT? HT stated that she was with LS earlier in the evening and went home at 12:30, IIRC.
    My thinking is that we know HT had class the following day so maybe LS didnt want to wake her up at 4 something am?

    I don't know if it's okay to mention these things (if not would a mod please delete) but here are a couple of tidbits:

    Today I went by the alley/5 North/Smallwood and there were guys in military uniforms literally on their hands and knees going through the grass.

    The other day I was part of the later search party and we were told specifically to look for jewelry items.

    While I was handing out fliers I was stopped by a couple of homeless guys. They told me that they also had heard a girl scream around 4:15 am as they were walking to the woods behind the ReStore (this is almost directly across 11th from 5 North apartments). They aren't the ones who are mentioned in the Herald-Times article, although both said they've given statements to the police.

    They also said that some other homeless people saw LS with a group of men on the Hill. The Hill (there's an actual name for the apartment complex but I can't remember what it is) is a public housing complex not far from 5 North (it's further away from downtown on 11th street). It's pretty rough for Bloomington's standards and there are a lot of drugs in that area.

    Now, I'll state here that this makes no sense to me. Talk about different worlds, but I'll throw it out there because it's what these guys told me.

    These guys--and, apparently, the homeless population--think that LS is the victim of a stranger abduction and that she won't be found.

    When I searched Sunday I rewalked her route with WS in mind since most of you can't actually be here. The beginning of the alley is really uneven and it would be awful to try to navigate drunk, in the dark, with no shoes. There is gravel everywhere. It starts at the parking garage under Smallwood and ends at 5 North. Once you get between the apartment building between the two (I can't remember its name but you walk by its pool and dumpster) it becomes smoother, narrows (before it is 'open' on either side--there's a parking lot, someone's back yard, construction gravel lot) so that there are walls on either side, and there are cameras.

    If one of the guys from 5 North wanted to get their car to move her body they would have to be on camera unless they weren't parked at the complex (which doesn't make any sense, as downtown parking is ridiculous).

    CR/MB and JR's apartments are facing 11th street. They literally open their front doors to the sidewalk and then 11th is right there on the other side of the sidewalk. There's no grass median or anything. Both have LS missing posters on their windows and doors. The westbound lane of 11th street was closed when LS disappeared (it's all closed now because of construction) so only eastbound traffic could go that way. Directly across the street is the skeleton of a new apartment building, then to the west is a grass field, an abandoned car dealership, and the ReStore. Behind all of that is the woods and railroad tracks where many of the homeless people sleep.

    *If* a stranger grabbed LS it would have been easiest to do between JR's apartment and College. It's dark, there would have been no cars coming from the opposite direction, and it's not a terribly busy street compared to some other cross streets. Of course, JR said he saw her go to the corner so...

    However, the ground slants some on the way to the corner and I wonder if JR could have really seen her on the corner. I'm only a couple of inches taller than LS and my friend, who stood by JR's door while I walked to the corner, couldn't see me once I got there. Besides, he would have had to have been standing outside because his front door faces 11th street, not College.

    Once you get to College there are still no cameras until you get to Salzmann's office, which is at 10th and College (his cameras face his parking lot, though). Cars coming up College would just be coming over a little hill so you wouldn't have been able to see LS, pull over, and grab her unless you were just creeping along looking for someone (and that's not obvious, lol).

    Still, there's a little alleyway/driveway between 10th and 11th streets that someone could be waiting at in a vehicle. And once she got to 10th Street there would be room for a car to pull over on College. There's really nowhere she could have ran to if someone came up on her, as there are stores there and all would obviously have been closed.

    Even when I got to her block I didn't see any obvious cameras until I got to Smallwood's awning, where there's a bubble camera.

    I walked right into Smallwood. A Hinds security guy walked through with his lunch and said hi to me. There's no front desk or anything right there. A girl got on the elevator and I didn't see her use a keycard or anything (which isn't to say there isn't something on the elevator you have to swipe to get it to move) but I didn't want to be any creepier than I probably already was so I left.


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    Quote Originally Posted by coltsgal View Post
    Btown, I'm trying to locate JW's frat house on the map, so I can see where he lives in proportion to the other locations. Do you know where it is, and would it be possible for you to add it to the wikimapia?
    http://newsinfo.iu.edu/pub/libs/images/usr/4350_h.jpg

    According to that picture of the frat house (assuming he lived in the main one and not in an annex house...which is common at my university), his house is at 1412 N. Jordan

    Just google mapped it to LS's apartment complex...it said about a 2 mile drive...34 minute walk. Just for reference
    Last edited by ncbuckeyecb; 06-14-2011 at 09:36 PM. Reason: More info

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  10. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by abstr View Post
    My understanding is that LE would need warrants to access phone records or the account holders turning them over.
    Are you sure about this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cluciano63 View Post
    I guess, but is it really likely she is in the downtown area, when it is so heavily traveled? I understand the concept but will be shocked if she is found near where she was last seem. Don't like to bring it up, but do we know trash removal days from any of the apartment buildings or for the whole downtown area?
    I was thinking those water towers on top of buildings? Saw a movie where the body was hidden in one.

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  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surly Sasha View Post
    My thinking is that we know HT had class the following day so maybe LS didnt want to wake her up at 4 something am?

    I don't know if it's okay to mention these things (if not would a mod please delete) but here are a couple of tidbits:

    Today I went by the alley/5 North/Smallwood and there were guys in military uniforms literally on their hands and knees going through the grass.

    The other day I was part of the later search party and we were told specifically to look for jewelry items.

    While I was handing out fliers I was stopped by a couple of homeless guys. They told me that they also had heard a girl scream around 4:15 am as they were walking to the woods behind the ReStore (this is almost directly across 11th from 5 North apartments). They aren't the ones who are mentioned in the Herald-Times article, although both said they've given statements to the police.

    They also said that some other homeless people saw LS with a group of men on the Hill. The Hill (there's an actual name for the apartment complex but I can't remember what it is) is a public housing complex not far from 5 North (it's further away from downtown on 11th street). It's pretty rough for Bloomington's standards and there are a lot of drugs in that area.

    Now, I'll state here that this makes no sense to me. Talk about different worlds, but I'll throw it out there because it's what these guys told me.

    These guys--and, apparently, the homeless population--think that LS is the victim of a stranger abduction and that she won't be found.

    When I searched Sunday I rewalked her route with WS in mind since most of you can't actually be here. The beginning of the alley is really uneven and it would be awful to try to navigate drunk, in the dark, with no shoes. There is gravel everywhere. It starts at the parking garage under Smallwood and ends at 5 North. Once you get between the apartment building between the two (I can't remember its name but you walk by its pool and dumpster) it becomes smoother, narrows (before it is 'open' on either side--there's a parking lot, someone's back yard, construction gravel lot) so that there are walls on either side, and there are cameras.

    If one of the guys from 5 North wanted to get their car to move her body they would have to be on camera unless they weren't parked at the complex (which doesn't make any sense, as downtown parking is ridiculous).

    CR/MB and JR's apartments are facing 11th street. They literally open their front doors to the sidewalk and then 11th is right there on the other side of the sidewalk. There's no grass median or anything. Both have LS missing posters on their windows and doors. The westbound lane of 11th street was closed when LS disappeared (it's all closed now because of construction) so only eastbound traffic could go that way. Directly across the street is the skeleton of a new apartment building, then to the west is a grass field, an abandoned car dealership, and the ReStore. Behind all of that is the woods and railroad tracks where many of the homeless people sleep.

    *If* a stranger grabbed LS it would have been easiest to do between JR's apartment and College. It's dark, there would have been no cars coming from the opposite direction, and it's not a terribly busy street compared to some other cross streets. Of course, JR said he saw her go to the corner so...

    However, the ground slants some on the way to the corner and I wonder if JR could have really seen her on the corner. I'm only a couple of inches taller than LS and my friend, who stood by JR's door while I walked to the corner, couldn't see me once I got there. Besides, he would have had to have been standing outside because his front door faces 11th street, not College.

    Once you get to College there are still no cameras until you get to Salzmann's office, which is at 10th and College (his cameras face his parking lot, though). Cars coming up College would just be coming over a little hill so you wouldn't have been able to see LS, pull over, and grab her unless you were just creeping along looking for someone (and that's not obvious, lol).

    Still, there's a little alleyway/driveway between 10th and 11th streets that someone could be waiting at in a vehicle. And once she got to 10th Street there would be room for a car to pull over on College. There's really nowhere she could have ran to if someone came up on her, as there are stores there and all would obviously have been closed.

    Even when I got to her block I didn't see any obvious cameras until I got to Smallwood's awning, where there's a bubble camera.

    I walked right into Smallwood. A Hinds security guy walked through with his lunch and said hi to me. There's no front desk or anything right there. A girl got on the elevator and I didn't see her use a keycard or anything (which isn't to say there isn't something on the elevator you have to swipe to get it to move) but I didn't want to be any creepier than I probably already was so I left.
    I think you should give this information to LE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ncbuckeyecb View Post
    http://newsinfo.iu.edu/pub/libs/images/usr/4350_h.jpg

    According to that picture of the frat house (assuming he lived in the main one and not in an annex house...which is common at my university), his house is at 1412 N. Jordan

    Just google mapped it to LS's apartment complex...it said about a 2 mile drive...34 minute walk. Just for reference
    Originally posted by Bloomington in Thread #2
    In RE to cipius: He's in an off-campus Jewish fraternity with no house referred to as APES. Long story short: they were kicked off campus for one reason another when they were known as AEPi. This past year AEPi was started again and will have a house on campus, but none of the existing members of the off-campus fraternity were allowed into the new AEPi and they can no longer refer to themselves as AEPi brothers, so they go by APES.

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  17. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by webrocket View Post
    from what is known from published accounts, this entire group of people were irresponsible and out of control that night. however, by the time Lauren vanished, how many do you think were still awake even, no less prowling around to do her harm while she walked on a public sidewalk?
    My honest opinion is that these kids were breaking the law--I believe with alcohol *and* drugs--and trying to keep from incriminating themselves in those crimes (as well as a media that has been quick to jump on a story without proofreading) has led to the different variations of events. I think they're out of control, spoiled party kids...not killers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janeumayer View Post
    I was thinking those water towers on top of buildings? Saw a movie where the body was hidden in one.
    I don't know who would have roof access...wouldn't the doors to roofs usually be locked?
    Just my opinion, of course.

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  20. #212
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    O/T....Another little girl was kidnapped this evening while riding her bike 2 hours north of Bloomington in Tipton Ind.

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140261"]IN IN - Serena Weicht, 10, Tipton, 14 June 2011 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

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  22. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector Gidget View Post
    Does anyone local know how many dumpsters are close by to these locations or when they are emptied?On what day or time?
    There are a *lot* of dumpsters (I'd hate to venture a guess of how many) but I don't know how often they are emptied. The City of Bloomington trash route is every Thursday but I don't know if they run more often at those complexes.

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  24. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surly Sasha View Post
    My thinking is that we know HT had class the following day so maybe LS didnt want to wake her up at 4 something am?

    I don't know if it's okay to mention these things (if not would a mod please delete) but here are a couple of tidbits:

    Today I went by the alley/5 North/Smallwood and there were guys in military uniforms literally on their hands and knees going through the grass.

    The other day I was part of the later search party and we were told specifically to look for jewelry items.

    While I was handing out fliers I was stopped by a couple of homeless guys. They told me that they also had heard a girl scream around 4:15 am as they were walking to the woods behind the ReStore (this is almost directly across 11th from 5 North apartments). They aren't the ones who are mentioned in the Herald-Times article, although both said they've given statements to the police.

    They also said that some other homeless people saw LS with a group of men on the Hill. The Hill (there's an actual name for the apartment complex but I can't remember what it is) is a public housing complex not far from 5 North (it's further away from downtown on 11th street). It's pretty rough for Bloomington's standards and there are a lot of drugs in that area.

    Now, I'll state here that this makes no sense to me. Talk about different worlds, but I'll throw it out there because it's what these guys told me.

    These guys--and, apparently, the homeless population--think that LS is the victim of a stranger abduction and that she won't be found.

    When I searched Sunday I rewalked her route with WS in mind since most of you can't actually be here. The beginning of the alley is really uneven and it would be awful to try to navigate drunk, in the dark, with no shoes. There is gravel everywhere. It starts at the parking garage under Smallwood and ends at 5 North. Once you get between the apartment building between the two (I can't remember its name but you walk by its pool and dumpster) it becomes smoother, narrows (before it is 'open' on either side--there's a parking lot, someone's back yard, construction gravel lot) so that there are walls on either side, and there are cameras.

    If one of the guys from 5 North wanted to get their car to move her body they would have to be on camera unless they weren't parked at the complex (which doesn't make any sense, as downtown parking is ridiculous).

    CR/MB and JR's apartments are facing 11th street. They literally open their front doors to the sidewalk and then 11th is right there on the other side of the sidewalk. There's no grass median or anything. Both have LS missing posters on their windows and doors. The westbound lane of 11th street was closed when LS disappeared (it's all closed now because of construction) so only eastbound traffic could go that way. Directly across the street is the skeleton of a new apartment building, then to the west is a grass field, an abandoned car dealership, and the ReStore. Behind all of that is the woods and railroad tracks where many of the homeless people sleep.

    *If* a stranger grabbed LS it would have been easiest to do between JR's apartment and College. It's dark, there would have been no cars coming from the opposite direction, and it's not a terribly busy street compared to some other cross streets. Of course, JR said he saw her go to the corner so...

    However, the ground slants some on the way to the corner and I wonder if JR could have really seen her on the corner. I'm only a couple of inches taller than LS and my friend, who stood by JR's door while I walked to the corner, couldn't see me once I got there. Besides, he would have had to have been standing outside because his front door faces 11th street, not College.

    Once you get to College there are still no cameras until you get to Salzmann's office, which is at 10th and College (his cameras face his parking lot, though). Cars coming up College would just be coming over a little hill so you wouldn't have been able to see LS, pull over, and grab her unless you were just creeping along looking for someone (and that's not obvious, lol).

    Still, there's a little alleyway/driveway between 10th and 11th streets that someone could be waiting at in a vehicle. And once she got to 10th Street there would be room for a car to pull over on College. There's really nowhere she could have ran to if someone came up on her, as there are stores there and all would obviously have been closed.

    Even when I got to her block I didn't see any obvious cameras until I got to Smallwood's awning, where there's a bubble camera.

    I walked right into Smallwood. A Hinds security guy walked through with his lunch and said hi to me. There's no front desk or anything right there. A girl got on the elevator and I didn't see her use a keycard or anything (which isn't to say there isn't something on the elevator you have to swipe to get it to move) but I didn't want to be any creepier than I probably already was so I left.
    I absolutely agree with Ven that this needs to be turned over to LE if it has not already.

    The window of opportunity for someone to have happened across her seems nill to me. Like, maybe a few seconds from when she was out of sight of JR and when she got to the little alley way where a car could have been waiting for her.

    If any of the POI's vehicles had left their apts though, with all the cameras in the area I just don't see how they've not been named suspects at this point. Maybe CR's car was seen leaving by LE, and that's why they wanted to check it, IDK.

    IMO something happened while partying with JR or someone was waiting specifically for her to walk by the alley.

    Gosh girl, where are you...what happened?!
    I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.
    ― Franklin D. Roosevelt


    Gabriel Johnson and Sylar Newton. Come home safely Gabriel Johnson! RIP Sweet Sylar.

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  26. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by WideOpen View Post
    O/T....Another little girl was kidnapped this evening while riding her bike 2 hours north of Bloomington in Tipton Ind.

    IN IN - Serena Weicht, 10, Tipton, 14 June 2011 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
    Probably unrelated, I think it's pretty standard for perps to be into either adults or children, not both (I could be wrong though).

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  28. #216
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    For the locals,where do these homeless people hang out or stay or do they wander all over.Just wondering how they know so much.

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    According to the public arrest records, JW address in 9/2010 was on the 600th block of E. 9th street. On Google Maps, it's approx. 12 mins to CR apt.

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  31. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by puffster View Post
    The 4:15 call was to DR and he lives at Smallwood and it was never answered. HT claims it was LS who made the call and the only one who could have told her that is JR.

    So there is a call from JR's phone to DR at 4:15, not answered, don't know if there is a voicemail (doubt it). The person making the call could have been LS, as HT claims (through JR), or it could have come from JR, the owner of the phone. You make the call!

    http://www.tonygatto.com
    If it was LS, I wonder if she thought he was still awake and she wanted him to come get her or meet her half way? MOO

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  33. #219
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    In previous posts, I put [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6653407#post6653407"]pictures of the alley[/ame] that runs from 9th St. to 11th Street, between Morton St., and College Ave.

    A post of [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6655043#post6655043"]pictures of the 10th & College Ave[/ame]. area.

    Pictures of some of [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6655694#post6655694"]the alley cameras[/ame]


    Pictures of the area [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6656930#post6656930"]between 10th and 11th street[/ame] between Morton St, and College Ave. fucused on looking for a handrail, since thats where her keys were reported to have been found.

    An unprofessional, hacked together attempt at a [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6656047#post6656047"]"map"[/ame], for a visual aid.

    And ealier today, [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6678422#post6678422"]pictures of Morton St.[/ame], and the alley between Morton & College Ave.

    I have a few more pictures now.

    Moving back up North on Morton St. There are no security cameras on this block that I can see.
    You are already aware of the pictures of [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6656930#post6656930"]gravel lot, the back of 5 North Apartments, and the side view of 5 North Apartments[/ame].

    The next building on Morton is 5 North where the boys live. It faces 11th St.
    Here is their dumpster. It says Sears & Son.


    Corner of Morton St. & 11th St. 5 North Apartments, where the boys live.


    Across the street from 5 North. The ReStore, and a couple of abandoned buildings.


    Facing East toward College Ave. walking in front of 5 North.


    Further East, looking toward College Ave. At the end of 5 North Apartments. This is the end of the alley that goes to Smallwood.


    Looking right, (South), down the alley toward Smallwood.


    Stil going East, the next building is another apartment building. Don't know its name, and although its small, there is nowhere to go to get it all in one image. The other side of the street is closed due to construction.


    Between buildings, looking south.


    Moving farther East toward College Ave. This is the last house on the block.


    Looking across the street (11th St.) at the construction.


    Construction (Continued) at the North East corner of 11th & College Ave.


    Across the street at the North West corner of 11th & College. The Lofts Apartments



    Across College Ave. on the South West corner of 11th & College.


    We'll take a walk down College Ave. in the Next Posting.
    Last edited by Btown; 06-14-2011 at 10:34 PM.

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  35. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by abstr View Post
    My understanding is that LE would need warrants to access phone records or the account holders turning them over.
    I don't believe so. I think LE can just subpoena the carrier.

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  37. #221
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    Homeless

    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector Gidget View Post
    For the locals,where do these homeless people hang out or stay or do they wander all over.Just wondering how they know so much.
    No disrespect intended, but just stating facts. I have a fair bit of experience volunteering with homeless people (although not in Indiana, I would assume it is similar elsewhere) A large percentage of the homeless population is mentally/psychologically impaired. They also 'gossip' and form opinions/expand on their thoughts/restate as facts just like the rest of us.

    I do not think their comments should be thrown out...but I do think they should be taken into account through a filter of fact vs. suspicion--and their overall mental health.

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  39. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by JenMom View Post
    No disrespect intended, but just stating facts. I have a fair bit of experience volunteering with homeless people (although not in Indiana, I would assume it is similar elsewhere) A large percentage of the homeless population is mentally/psychologically impaired. They also 'gossip' and form opinions/expand on their thoughts/restate as facts just like the rest of us.

    I do not think their comments should be thrown out...but I do think they should be taken into account through a filter of fact vs. suspicion--and their overall mental health.
    I watched that West Mesa killer thing on Dateline not too long ago, and the transient population always told LE rumors that the victims were killed and buried out in the desert, and sure enough they were found buried out in the desert. Just because they say something doesn't make it so, but their accounts should have just as much weight as any other witness account.

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  41. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darcyline View Post
    coltsgal-I had the same thought. It really looks like a ton of cameras to me and I cannot believe someone would be so lucky to just miss being caught shoving her into a car.
    Unless I'm missing cameras, the ones on College are pointed at the businesses, which are behind a kind of stone half-wall (it's hard to describe so I'm sorry about not being clear) and I'm not sure those would give a view of what was going on on the sidewalk.

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  43. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector Gidget View Post
    Are you sure about this?
    Not positive but I have heard other discussion about cell records in other cases (I think there was some of this in the Phylicia Barnes cases where there had been a lot people involved) where LE was delayed in getting cell records. I thought they had to find out where the phone pinged with the cell company.

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  45. #225
    SmoothOperator's Avatar
    SmoothOperator is offline Sadly what connects all these puzzles is that there's a victim@the heart of each
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    I think it is quite likely that LE does not have all the cell records, if any..

    As shefner has shared with us she has unfortunately had to go what is a parents worst nightmare of having your child go Missing and having not a clue where they are.. She probably could shed some light here as I know that she shared her personal experience of attempting to get her very own son's cell phone records when he went Missing.. Hoping of course that it would yield an idea of where to locate him.. She was not legally allowed, even tho being his very own mother still yet the red tape of not being legally allowed to have access to his cell records.. It was only by the grace of God that the woman whom she was speaking with from the phone company's heart was most likely softened by this mother's desperate plea to try and find her son..
    As I said she may be able to shed a little light on the dufficulty of getting access to such type records..

    That being said even with a person possibly giving permission to access their records LE still has to go the legal route for reasons of having such evidence admissible in court if it ever need be.. So just like in Hailey Dunn's case tho her mother supposedly signed the waiver for LE to access all her cell phone records they still had to go the correct legal route by going thru the courts to obtain a subpoena and then at that time serving the subpoena on Verizon wireless in tht particular case.

    I know due to the legalities of this red tape having to be gone thru that this records were a couple weeks in becoming available in full to LE..

    So IMO I'd say it is quite likely that they do not have those all important records yet.. Atleast not in full I am certain that they do not yet have..

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