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  1. #1
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    Marcus Bain Wise- analytical chemistry Phd...additional train @ Oakridge almost 27 years started right out of school...belongs to organizations - Boy Scouts of America - no professional organizations now....published how many times don't know the number probably 15 - 20 lectured on topic of analytical chemistry and given presentations and won awards in that area - some in the past...first time ever testified in court....

    need to Enter Dr. Wise as expert in analytical chemistry - expert research scientist

    works on challenging scientific problems need to be addressed solved to push frontiers to next level...forensic scientist ccan be reserach scientist...often does research in forensics...use science in courtroom....Oakridge Nat Research lab...challenging ...we develop forensics....we do not use protocols as in a Forensic lab...evidence type samples are not as common in type of work we do...forensic lab - another difference in labs are protocols usually in place in forensic lab that is not in a research lab (object- sustained estab.foundation)

    different types of labs and somewhat familiar with their practices --somewhat...forensic lab much more rigid standards than research lab (object- foundation overruled if witness can answer) have not worked personally in a forensics lab...you are aware they are much more rigid standards to hold up in court...protocols are much more rigid -haven not run protocols don't know their standards...in Research & Development - analytical needs that arrise - protocols written steps what must be done in each and every case...methods not written routinely like driving a car....do it day in and day after day after day - no proficiency exams for forensic samples - as well as quality control...in these cases we are not running a routine procedure ....part of the reason ....any protocols in place in your lab to prevent contaminationl...we run light standards...for (object- lead 0verrule) you have an item going to test - no protocols prevent contamination of the item....do you have any quality control practices and procedures in place prior to it reaching the machine....don't understand how it could be contaminated....

    are you aware of contamination? no...(object -sustain) as your research is to expand boundaries of science - primary focus....analytical chemist not aware of major sources of contamination...where you witness in testing items....anything place in your lab to monitor for contamination...no background machine runn

    run a sample of GCMS - dr. Arpad Vass asked me to run it...they were in his office...he was not in there that day....left open? key left....don't remember where they were in his office...dont recall....container in? shipping containers don't remember but one was a bag and the other a metal can....ran a test using instrument...GCMS...qualitative analysis tells what are in the sample ...quantitative tells how much there....advise Vass a quantative analysis not mean anything in this stain? object - vague - sustained

    items askec to test in this case did you advise Dr. Vass quantitiative analysis would not mean anything in this case....at that time we didn't talk bout quantiatavie......missed some


    several peaks there relative height of those peaks is approximate of relative amounts there...just compares one chemical to another ...not a quantitiative analysis....we performed a second test before decision reached not do a quantitative was his advise yes....ever done a quantitative analysis to determine how much chloroform - not quantitfied because a meaningless number.....trunk is free flowing enviornement....chlroform is volitle chemical evaps quickly...like gasoline...little drop on finger -see it and strong smell...after 20 min can't smell anymore - liquid vaporize moved from fingers to atmosphere swept away...chlroform is that type compound a drop on a surface evaps over period/hours/days it will decrease ...rate decrease depends on temperature...chemical nature of surface...surface exposed to blowing air....all effect concentration decrease...slow down the volitilty down? no not the volitilty but prevent air escape from trunk...qualitative analysis on small piece of carpet...get a number of x number of micrograms the amount on that carpet at a particular snapshot in time...doesn't represent whole carpet...quantitative measure on that little piece on carpet....could be little less or whole lot less when original could have been 100 to 1000 x's greater...we really want to know amount first there...because you don't have the history didnt bother checking (object) did not know history and temp of the trunk over period of time varies every single day....however many days it has been going down...one day vs. 30 days...one day would be considerable higher....no amount of chloroform - because if I did it would been set in stone what that number was and it is not meaningful cannot be related to amount original there....a gas bag sample.....tested that virtually nothjing there - experience with gas sample bag not surprising not show presence of chloroform...don't know what was in air....don't know the vapor but we measured the piece of carpet in the trunk







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  2. #2
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    got sample ran sample from can - vapor inside the can...chloroform was highest peak....non-responsive to JB question- overrule - took carpet sample from can put in clean sample bag...inject clean air into the bag held 35degrees centigrade similar to hot summer day in FL - at end of 2 days resampled - amplified - saw another peak highest was chloroform...other peaks as well...highly sensitive instrument.....can be....a drop of water..down to certain concentration.....he runs his machine..


    do not use those standards to measure quantitative analysis - meaningless to assign an absolute number...standard for GCMS series of peaks correspond how long chemical compound to move from one end to other end - depends on type of molecule - chloroform takes 16 min to run thru....computer run library match...tenative compound id...buy a chemical compound and run a sample to see if chemical compound matches spectrum way of having known compared to sample......not intended to determine how much chloroform on the samples.....

    exhibit CJ - approach witness ....

    recognize notes - handwritten notes of whatdoing in lab....indicate here while testing triple sorbent traps.....note to him what he thinks about the ....no standard protocols that say absolutely....look @ it and see reasonably.....not the objective to reach standard....correct...page 73 you indicate a very large benzine from triple sorbent trap....compromised in any way....very large benzine peak give you info....Object - JB rephrase question to know what item wer are talking about....

    trip line from a triple sorbent trap - file OSCOtb01 from one carpet samples? no....from hair sample? hair sample collected somewhere down here....item,s that have ...what is significance of large benzine ...benzine contamination...picked upon it during mid of testing....pg 74....still discuss triple sorbent traps - asterisk there what try to indicate ther? triple sorbent trap can absorb water - rather than water plug system up siphoned it off....not unusual....on follow page - put trap froze....sidebar!


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  3. #3
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    Dr. Marcus Wise testimony (Oakridge Laboratories)

    DIRECT EXAMINATION OF DR. MARCUS WISE BY JB:

    He is a research scientist at Oakridge Laboratories in analytical chemistry. He has been there for almost 27 years.

    PhD from Purdue. He belongs to the Boyscouts of America. No professional organizations.

    Publications - he doesn't recall how many publications he has done - 15 to 20.

    He has lectured on analytical chemistry and received awards.

    This is the first time he has testified in court.

    JB tenders him as an expert in analytical chemistry with no objection from JA.

    A research scientist works on challenging scientific problems that need to be solved to push the frontiers of science to the next level. A forensic scientist can be a research scientist. Oakridge is a research lab. They can develop techniques. They don't run routine samples as a forensic lab would.

    Evidence type samples are not as common in the work they do.

    Protocols are usually in place in a forensic lab?

    OBJECTION - SUSTAINED.

    He is somewhat familiar with a forensic lab. Do they have more rigid standards relating to protocols?

    OBJECTION - OVERRULED.

    He has not worked in a forensics laboratory.

    OBJECTION - SUSTAINED.

    Are their standards more stringent? He has not run forensic protocols.

    A research lab, they are working with protocols that can be varied.

    They use methods routinely, like driving a car. They do not conduct proficiency exams. They don't run routine quality control procedures.

    Contamination?

    OBJECTION - leading and foundation - SUSTAINED

    They run blank standards to see if an instrument has a large amount of contamination.

    Quality control practices that would prevent contamination before sample reaches machine? He asked - how it would become contaminated?

    OBJECTION - leading - SUSTAINED

    His primary focus is to expand the boundaries of science. As an analytical chemist he is typically aware of major sources of contamination. Where?

    OBJECTION - leading - SUSTAINED

    No background monitor for contamination in the lab.

    He was asked to run the samples to perform a qualitative analysis to determine what was in them. Dr. Vass requested that. The items were in Dr. Vass's office. He doesn't recall exactly where they were or what the shipping containers looked like. He then took the items to his lab and used a GCMS. He did not know the history of the item. He ran a qualitative analysis which tells you what is in it. It is not a quantitative analysis which tells you how much is there.

    Did he tell Dr. Vass...

    OBJECTION - vague - SUSTAINED

    The test showed a significant peak.

    A quantitative analysis ever done? It would have been a meaningless number.

    Chloroform is volatile and evaporates easily. The rate it decreases is dependent on the temperature, the chemical nature of the surface, exposure to flowing air. If a trunk is closed, it may not escape as easily. A quantitative analysis of a little piece of carpet could be a lot less than on the original carpet and they did not have the info to back calculate that. He did not come up with a number because the number he would have come up with would have been set in stone and it would have been meaningless.

    He received a gas bag sample. When he tested it, there was virtually nothing there. It was not surprising because it is his experience that chemicals in a bag go away in a few days. He does not know what was in the vapor in the trunk. The carpet was a point source.

    The first analysis was to barely crack the lid, put a syringe in and pulled a small sample out and put that in his GCMS. He then wanted to concentrate the sample. They then put the sample into a clean bag and put the bag into an incubator and held at about 95 degrees for 2 days. A sample of that air was then removed and analyzed and again chloroform was the largest peak.

    Standards of chloroform were purchased for this case, but they were not used because they did not do a quantitative analysis because it would not make any sense to do that. The standards were used to confirm the tentatively identified compound.

    He was shown Defense Exhibit CJ. He recognized his handwritten notes of what was being done in the lab. He indicated that the system sample blank was reasonably clean - in this case it was not the objective that it was absolutely clean. (JA shaking his head). (ICA whispering to DS)

    Large benzine peak from triple absorbent trap. Compromised?

    OBJECTION - relevance - REPHRASE the QUESTION.

    This is a trip blank of a triple absorbent trap - file name OCOSTB-01. This would have been an air sample.

    Large benzine peak suggests benzine contamination. He doesn't know how it got there.

    Pg 74 - the asterisk indicated that the trap had absorbed some water and he tried to purge it off so as not to clog the system. This is not uncommon.

    Pg 75 - trap froze.

    SIDEBAR #7 (4:29-4:33)

    (Bill Shaeffer stating it was a mistake for JB to call this witness as he is just confirming AV's testimony)

    Break to 4:40

  4. #4
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    JB w/

    triple sorbent trap little ....activated...soaks up stuff from the air into this sponge...heating it up ...drives materials into GCMS - pass alot of air across to allow constiuants to attach....a lot of water vapor in air must remove off.....other way ...heated chemicals come off spongue vaporize and liquid nitrogen freezes them...what happens a little water will get into that stainless steel loop - very small ice crystals = remove water after heat slightly...why noted...in qualitative ....the notes were not needed...does not mean the qualitative sample was not a good sample...in ice water...see water condensing on outside of water...even if you pour water out of glass - not all water immediatly gone...takes time for chemicals to vapor off....this is way we have been running samples over the years....you have another chemist check your work...SA # 122 announced in record...is Dr. Vass a chemist...he has many years analytical chemistry experience and extensive experience and triple sorbent traps...it is not his title chemist but if you consider his on job training....did you get training on job or go to school and get a PhD...I am able to perform in other areas exactly my Phd...last class Dr. Vass had was in 1980s - he has extensive experience trouble shoot, design, two of you close? we are very close....anything negative to say about Dr. Vass? he is very talented and very intelligent...another chemist verify your results? no

    on pg 117 trap froze up - @ 1 min 56 sec....when trap freezes remove ...warm it just enough for water to melt and re-establish flow.....

    triple sorbent trap from trash found....show documents...refer to pg. 76 where SA # 116 the sample froze up again correct...object -

    #116 relates to air sample from air passenger of car.....correct....this it? yep...on pg 79 say system blank appear to be clean...for the standards... correct

    pg 82 - you decide to abort this run...(object- sustain) any issues run into describe you are doing and what you had...run blank on system and I started run and noticed I didn't reset computer....caught yourself in mid error - because you are not a research lab....this was not run according to number and letter of the lab....

    JB looks thru reoprt - pg 86 - another asterisk - caught yourself in another error (object- sustain)
    were you working with standards.....JA is this sample 116 again - no this is


    it does appear to be ...again no protocols to prevent errors...we did not run these according to protocols in a lab...Did Dr Vass catch mistake or did you? I did... pg 87 did you find another/ he reads...that was a continuation of the prior...oh ok...change something in mid process? running a standard of a compound - it smells really bad- changed way it injected keep it from smell up the lab...because no protocols...have to change procedure...I changed voluntarily to keep it from smell up lab - does not change GCMS of that sample...on pg 89 expected to see something in standard - same standard - doesn't smellgood sticky...not come thru GCMS as it should...put in asterisks ...it was unexpected wanted to make sure it was corrected...I ran the standards...on pg 90 make adjustment didn't see certain things...same standard smell down got it quickly as possible to get into GCMS - not adjustments that would make any difference in GCMS - I made adjustments to get the sample to run...didn't see where you expected to see it? would not go thru material due to heavy sticky material - yes...

    was there issue (pg 93) mess up this round? yes closed valve - catch yourself in an error there....involve retential time standard - same one...pge 94 continue to have problems...yes anytime during process when instruments broke down...don't recall....possible you have issues with your GCMS (object -sustain) are you aware GCMS broke down while obtaining....object overrule...it didnot break down ....based on prior ...no quality control methods to prevent this from happening object lead X2 sustained ...do you have quality control sample to look @ same for authentic standards injected...you are quality control object sustain -can we approach No - primary method of determining is functioning....no one else but you and Dr. vass - Dr. Vass is very qualfied not his written title of chemist.

    direct attn to work on a case where issued standard protocols for collection of volitile soils samples for collection - approach witness? you may...





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  5. #5
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    JB is reason you have these protocols to prevent contamination? why do you have protocol...collect soil samples - collect them in an area as pristine as possible...object sustain avoid contamination whenever possible object- can contamination come from gasoline it may. Can we approach?




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  6. #6
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    This is document for collection of soil samples to test them at a later date for volitle chemical compounds....protocols for trash debris and obvious sources should be free ...object - soil samples sustained.....any samples = sustaine rephrase...

    when running samples regardless of sample...depends on the sample - if in a trash heap then you collect it...some cases you have no choise to collect a particular sample - it is where it is...whatever else is there part of environment....object sustain sustain...I don't believe he is answering question...any false-positive reading object false positive for what - sustain...when run air samples trash debris and other chemicals...sometimes cannot separate two. depends on the objective of analysis....asked this question numerous times in various fashions - move on.

    store samples where no volitle chemicals - always good thing to do if possible...are you aware of the trash inside veh... i didn't see inside vehicle...

    i didnt request samples....

    you tested piece of carpet allegedly stained...got a piece assume stained ...I did notrequest samples sent to me...I request to analyse samples...object leading

    what did you compare them to... I didn't decide what collected or what sent or comparison....I didn't collect sample - junk yard in Tennessee - I didn't collect carpet sample..

    co-author - report - does report indicate carpet samples from a junkyard - dont have it in front of me...when you answered you do not recall where collected from Object- disrupting witness






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  7. #7
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    missed some testimony with JB approx 15 min

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  8. #8
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    Dr. Marcus Wise

    Break over (4:41) Big yawn by his honor

    Jury coming back (4:43)

    DIRECT EXAMINATION OF DR. MARCUS WISE BY JB - continued

    JB showed the witness a document and asked him about items with an asterisk by them. He wrote that he was trying to purge the water out of the trap and he wanted to explain. The triple-sorbant trap is 3 inches long and is a chemical sponge that soaks things out of the air so that they can be concentrated and then analyzed in the GCMS. It is a two step process - first to pass air over the trap. A little water vapor sticks to the sponge. The second step is to then heat the chemicals, vaporize and then pass to a loop with liquid nitrogen in it. He made the notation just to know it was there. If it was a quantitative analysis he could lose some lighter chemicals. This does not mean that the sample is not good.

    Did you have another chemist verify your work?

    OBJECTION -

    Dr. Vass is aware of what was run here. He has many years of chemistry experience. He is a scientist with significant analytical chemistry experience.

    Is Dr. Vass a chemist? He is if you consider on the job training. It is not his title.

    He was hired as a Ph.d. chemist and is able to perform in a lot of areas outside of his Ph.d. He did not know when Dr. Vass last took a chemistry class.

    They are very close colleagues. He is very talented and very intelligent.

    He did not have another chemist verify his results.

    Page 76 - Sample froze up again. This sample related to the air sample from the passenger area of the car.

    Page 79 - system blank appeared to be clean. That is for the standards.
    Regarding #117, the trap froze up at 1:52 into the run. When that happens, ice crystals form and they warm it up just enough for it to melt and air flow to be re-established.

    This was not run according to a numbered or lettered protocol.

    Page 86 - asterisk related to another error?

    OBJECTION - SUSTAINED

    This is a standard to determine the retention time.

    (I am paying close attention and I am having a very hard time following where JB is going!)

    (Everyone they show in the courtroom looks like they are going to fall asleep)

    He caught himself in an error on the standards.

    Page 87 - this was a continuation of the prior.

    Did you change something in the middle of your process? He changed the way it was injected to keep from smelling up his lab.

    Page 89 - expected to see it come through the GCMS and that meant it was being held up somewhere. It was something unexpected and wanted to make sure it was corrected.

    Page 90 - did you make an adjustment? This is the same standard that smelled bad and he wanted to get it into the machinery as quickly and cleanly as possible. This would not effect the results.

    OBJECTION - OVERRULED

    You had to make adjustments in the middle of the run? He did that voluntarily to get the run. He did not see it where he expected - it would not go through the inlet because it is heavy and sticky.

    Page 93 - he caught himself in an error there on the retention time standard - the same one as before.

    Page 94 - he continued to have problems.

    Doesn't recall if his instruments broke down at some point.

    Did you have issues with GMCS?

    OBJECTION - SUSTAINED

    Are you aware that your machine broke during testing? He stated it did not break down. The loop at the front end was blocked due to the prior test.

    Do you have any quality control standards.

    OBJECTION - SUSTAINED[/B]

    Quality control in these cases is if the retention time is the same as the authentic standard.

    You are the quality control are you not?

    OBJECTION - SUSTAINED

    He is a primary method of determining if the instrument is functioning properly.

    He and Dr. Vass ran the samples. Is he a chemist - he is very qualified. He is not a chemist? It is not his written title.

    Composite CK - does this document...

    OBJECTION - SUSTAINED

    Have you ever issued protocols that suggest that samples should not be collected in areas near volatile compounds for soil samples?

    OBJECTION - relevance - SUSTAINED

    Is the reason to prevent contamination?

    OBJECTION - leading - SUSTAINED

    It is to avoid contamination whenever possible.

    SIDEBAR #8 (5:07-5:11)

    JB asks the Dr. to familiarize himself with the document and identified it as being for the collection of soil samples.

    Soil sample protocols?

    OBJECTION - relevance - SUSTAINED

    Should collection for samples be free of debris?

    OBJECTION - SUSTAINED

    When running samples, regardless of the sample, do you recommend that the location be free of debris?

    It depends on the objective of the analysis.

    If you were collecting a carpet sample?

    In some cases you have no choice.

    Do you recommend that an item be separate?

    OBJECTION - asked and answered - SUSTAINED

    Could a false positive reading?

    OBJECTION - what false positive - SUSTAINED

    When running air samples, do you recommend that trash and debris not be part of the sample?

    Sometimes you cannot separate the two.

    OBJECTION - SUSTAINED - MOVE ON TO ANOTHER AREA

    Do you recommend collected samples not be stored at locations with organic chemicals such as gasoline. He said that is always a good thing to do if possible. He believes there was trash found inside the vehicle. He has no idea where the trash was int he car. He did not request any samples at all.

    Would a non-stained portion of the carpet have been helpful?

    He got a piece of carpet and assumed it was stained, based on what he understood.

    He did not request the samples. He was just requested to analyze them.

    Junkyard car samples?

    OBJECTION - SUSTAINED

    He compared it to a carpet sample from another vehicle. He did not know where it came from as he did not collect it.

    He is a co-author of the report in this case.

    He did not recall where the sample was collected from. He then agreed it was from a junk yard, but he believes it came from Tennessee.

    He made an addition to his report. He wanted to add that these chemicals found could also be associated with other types of materials. In a GMCS and you have one peak it doesn't say what the source is.

    Air samples taken 6 weeks after carpet samples? That is what he has been told. Would the air six weeks later be significantly different? He has no way of knowing that. Would garage door make a difference? He has no way of knowing how the air would change over a period of time. He could not know what the changes to the air in the trash would be.

    JB would like to enter the notes into evidence. JA objected as they contained JB's notes. OBJECTION SUSTAINED.

    CROSS EXAMINATION BY JA

    He worked with Dr. Vass in some of his research in decomp odor. He has looked at air samples from soil, ambient air, just about any matrix you can think of.

    His initial analysis of carpet sample air, was just to run it through the GMSC and the major peak was chloroform. He also saw peaks consistent with gas fumes. Chloroform was greater than the peaks for gas vapors. Gas vapors would not be surprising.

    The relative abundance of the chloroform seemed very unusual to him because it is a suspected cancer causing agent and he would not expect to find it in the trunk of a vehicle, but he cannot say where it came from.

    He does not want to place a quantitative number on the chloroform, but it was detectible at levels above the baseline of his machine of parts per million.

    Concentrated sample had similar results.

    When he first saw chloroform it raised a question in his mind because he did not expect to see it there. Then he concentrated the sample and it was still the abundant... He then looked at some material data safety sheets out of his own personal curiosity. He was not able to find anything, but this was not an exhaustive search.

    Certain polymers can sometimes trap volatiles.

    He could never relate this reading of chloroform back to an earlier time. However, he could say that it would have been greater at a previous time. Based on the analysis, it was clear that the chloroform was associated with the carpet - coming directly from the carpet.

    Regarding air blank that was mostly clean - usually an air blank is room air. He does that to check to see what is in his room. No room is completely void of compounds.

    Regarding various issues noted in lab notes, this is to make sure he has a record of anything out of the ordinary. This info would be used when establishing a procedure. Nothing occurred that was extraordinary. He did forget to close a couple of valves, but he noticed that and quickly corrected it.

    Purpose for control samples was to try to determine in any of those contributed to the trunk carpet. 6 weeks later was the best he could get.

    He has worked with Dr. Vass doing studies in chemistry for 12 to 13 years. A national laboratory is a national resource of scientists that interact all the time. Dr. Vass is very eager to continuously learn.

    No further questions.

    RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY JB:

    Different projects with Dr. Vass? The labradore - hand held sniffer. It is not patented yet. He is also a co-inventor but not really a beneficiary. All scientists are required to report any inventions. Most patents end up assigned to the company and his gain would be minimal.

    Did you bill the work you did in this case to the Labradore project? He did not know for sure. He works on multiple projects. It is likely and fits within the scope of that project.

    As a research scientist, he writes proposals to create technology. These are funded research projects. It is a job requirement to generate funds.

    If technology is validated in court....

    OBJECTION - SUSTAINED

    Labradore was an instrument he designed the electronics for. It is very different from the GMCS and in a very broad sense puts out the readings found in decomp. No one will buy it because they heard about it in a court.

    How many times has the Labradore been promoted in the media? It was not used in this case at all. It did not even exist until about a year after they ran the samples in this case.

    One of the carpet samples from the junk yard had a small amount of chloroform in it - just a little bit above the baseline. He did not do a quantitative analysis.

    Research on possible explanation for chloroform? He looked at some material data sheets of common products that might be found in the back of a vehicle. He doesn't recall how long he spent.

    He cannot say where any chemical came from.

    He doesn't know where chloroform would come from. He did not see anything that chloroform in it.

    No further questions.

    RE-CROSS BY JA:

    Labradore was designed for LE and the military. If used by them, no royalties would be paid at all.

    Witness is excused.

  9. #9
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    JA w/Dr. Wise -
    largest peak was chloroform...some gasoline vapors....not surprised to see gasoline vapors in trunk of car....absolutely not....object not quantitiative analysis - overrule

    chloroform relative abundance is highly unusual to him cancer causing chemical....not left sitting out...would not expect find in trunk of vehicle...cant tell you where any chemical came from....chloroform there relative to other chemicals there object- ovrrule - if he can answer - detectible at levels meter in low part per million range - anything above that should register - in a very crude sense...ran concentrated sample - relative abundance to chloroform similar yes....research thru sources as chemist to determine whether it came from car related product...it raised question in my mind...most abundant peak...Dr Vass and I contemplated why it ws there - looked W MSDS sheets for brake cleaners or other cleaners - not exhaustive study - just satisfy own curiousity...don't know where came from or why it is there...couple of hours think of something what it might be and look that up but not every comound ....


    is it generally accepted in chemistry community certain polymers can sometimes trap volitals evaps quickly polymers can trap them...almost every material carbon based molecules plastics with carbon bckbone adhere to molecules of carbon....didn't do quantitiative because whatever info you had at that time could not determine where original...don't know temps rate of evap or how often trunk open or closed - no way to make quantitative alanyusis in any ways shape or form...to relate back to that vehicle....no way to know if that piece of carpet was most stained part or least stained part....trunk open or closed - total guess could not be known - didn't do the quantitative analysis ...hypothetical 50 ppm extrapolated to be exact concentratin and that would be totally incorrect....chloroform doesn't increase over time.....decrease...we demonstrated only way chloroform from clean air was evap off of the carpet in the carpet or spill on carpet...opint take it in clean air was to replicate it was coming directly from carpet - correct yes.

    note where said an air blank being mostly clean ...quite clean..some modifier like that...run air blank - run room air...usually yes....run room air to see what is in his room...any air from any place is not completely devoid of compounds ...if you look hard enough you will find something in any air sample...lab notes complete record anything out of ordinary so others can know exactly what happened when writing standards of procedures invent protocol for other labs to use - this might be problem to look out for...anything in running of samples out of ordinary? did forget to close a couple valves I noticed right away ....like drive car with flat tire. know right away and correct that....any samples contribute to what found in carpet...6 weeks later best what you could get....can't go back in time and grab sample from 3 weeks before needed it. take it from when you get there....

    JB asked about Dr. Vass and qualify...how long worked with him instudies of chemistry 12- 13 years now....work together @ Nat Lab is nat resources of scientists to work together and take advantage of each other's specialty...he has been a major contributor to development of mass spectrometers - protocols for analysis of biological samples - he is eager t o continually learn - Mark teach me what you know - wow how did you know how to do that? teach me...he does that with everyone @ lab not just their group...
    object - sustain

    no further questions
    re-direct

    briefly - diffferent projects work w/Dr Vass is labrador - hand held sniffer machine currently patented - co-inventer but not a beneficiary - stand to get royalties - all scientists are required are have Nat. Labs minimal minimal royalties.....this project had all work built to labrador project....every one requires what field constituants that instrument will run in..run field samples such as this run them in the field...build work you did to labrador project....they are consistent with that work but did a lot of work...billed it out to labrador project? very likely yes...as a research scientist have to earn grants for requirements to generate income to the lab...we write proposals to funded research project - one is labrador project research...one of your jobs is requirements to generate funds...all researchers required to seek research funding....makes it a lot easier to sell...object facts not in evidence - labrador of Dr. Vass....designed sensor very different than GCMS - very loose sense can detect human decomp....nobody going to buy a field instrument just because they heard about it in a court proceeding...won't buy if doesn't work - own independent testing and validation there is no way anything in this court proceeding will in any way affect labrador....in patent proposal there is mention that these are validated in court of law? object - scope - sustain

    how many times...we ran those samples - no way I had a crystal ball - nothing to do with this case and labrador...sir are you understnd my question? object - sustain

    how many times labrador been promoted since involved in this case object -sustain

    talk about test all types of enviroment samples...not all kinds but very wide variety ...can't recall carpet sample....object sustain
    can't say what expect to find in carpet sample...wide variety carpet samples one from tow yard had chloroform in it ....was that a quantitative analysis? no not indicate ppm or anyting else....qualitative only object - sustian a litel above baseline.

    MSDS = not an exhaustive study by any stretch ....google a few products spent about an hour don'tr ecall....reserve opinions limited by googling....cannot say where any chemical came from cannot make that determination...in cleaning products or adhesvies...do not know that -do not see anything to make that determination..

    aware chloroform found in cleaning products - don't know hwere chlroform might be...didn't see anything like that....didn't do an exhasustive study of chloroform.

    labrador designed for miltary LE - if used by one of those agencies there is no royalties - someone who could not pay you if successful - that is correct..

    witness excuse?
    JB - quick follow up on that issue object- wait ask your question

    didn't understand qustion -if this labrador is produced and sold - as far as I understand any US patent ....I would not get a royalty for government use for federal use? dont know if extends to STate - you do not know? object- sustain asked and answered

    thank you sir - be excused

    concludes presentation of evidence for today



    Proud member of the AFKBPOFPOPL



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