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Thread: IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #20

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by mamamia54 View Post
    Could someone direct me to the area of the Bloomington transfer station. TY
    no one can just go rummaging through landfills.

    there is another thread here for Andrew Compton. a man admitted to placing Andrew's body in a dumpster. LE checked the routes of all the trash haulers in the area and ascertained what landfill would have been used. despite losing only about a week (give or take) and having some idea of what landfill the body went, they could not find it despite a meticulous search.

    here we have no information that LS ended up in a dumpster, no less which dumpster which would lead to a location of a landfill. every day tons of trash are deposited in these landfills. besides the fact that I doubt private citizen are allowed into landfills, no one is going to find a body this far out, even if they knew which landfill she was in.

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  3. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluciano63 View Post
    No, I know...I just get a picture in my mind of a car being used if the students are involved, to get her out the area...no reason other than a feeling. I think they would want to distance themselves physically from where they say she was last seen.
    Well if somebody knows the day trash is picked up, then it would make sense to dump a body into a dumpster expecting it to be picked up quickly.
    Just my opinion

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  5. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tr. View Post
    I disagree. The kind of work an attorney has done is exactly the reason you would hire him.
    I understand you are a law student...but if you are a practicing attorney with experience in prosecution then you know a lot of people at the police station and would make an excellent liaison.
    JW hired a liaison.
    All attorneys are liasons. Communicating for their client is why they are hired. All attorneys need to be able to have good communication with judges, law enforcement, etc. because that is what they do. All good lawyering requires good communication.

    I am saying that hiring a criminal attorney means NOTHING in determining whether he is guilty or innocent. In a case like this, regardless of whether you are innocent, you are going to hire an attorney who conducts criminal defenses because you are likely to be on the defense. You can not conclude that a person has committed a felony because they hired an attorney who has litigated felonies. It wouldn't make any sense for JW to hire an attorney who does civil suits, wrongful injury suits, property law, etc. You hire an attorney based on the type of activity in question and types of charges likely to be brought, NOT based on whether you are guilty or innocent. You want an attorney who is familiar with the rules of evidence, a great orator, who knows both statutory and common criminal law to a T. I can guarantee you every innocent person who has been charged with a felony hired a criminal attorney. You just cannot put any weight on the past cases an attorney has litigated when trying to determine guilt. Using that logic, every person who hires a criminal attorney is guilty. There's a reason that sort of speculation isn't allowed in the courtroom. An attorney may be particularly good at conducting a defense, of course, but that does not say anything about guilt.
    Last edited by bonechaos; 07-27-2011 at 03:18 PM.
    "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into." - Jonathan Swift

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  7. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    Well if somebody knows the day trash is picked up, then it would make sense to dump a body into a dumpster expecting it to be picked up quickly.
    I don't mean to say it is impossible...I just have a picture in my head of a bunch of guys with access to all kinds of vehicles and thinking "let's get her clear of here"...as I said, just a feeling.
    Just my opinion, of course.

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  9. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedrosmom View Post
    Why would JW retain an attorney if he didn't see her at all that night?
    Because the boyfriend is always a person of interest.
    "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into." - Jonathan Swift

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  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tr. View Post
    In your opinion it makes sense.

    IF CR were so worried about the list you refer to then why would he walk past all of those security cameras on his way to getting the snot knocked out of him?
    "Hey SmallWood security...here I am trespassing...again".

    He didn't give a crap about that list and neither did LS. SmallWood officials talked about the list in an interview and all but said they don't enforce it.
    They even went as far as to say that a person on that list could walk right by a security guard and they wouldn't necessarily notice because they don;t ask everyone for ID as they come and go out of the building.
    The most that would have happened to CR if caught at SW is to be told to leave.

    As for the actual cops showing up...ZO would have been cuffed and hauled off in a caged back seat like a dog. Any of his homies that had anything to say may have got to ride along.

    No, the reason they didn't go in the apt is because they were not "allowed" to do so by the hall monitors all of which should be arrested and charged using the surveillance video as evidence.
    Imo of course
    We'll have to agree to disagree here. I and many others have set forth the reasons why we believe it was best for them to leave. What I and others have suggested explains everything; your opinion leaves us without answers. I am assuming that you believe the kids at SW were involved with Lauren's disappearance - apologies if this isn't true - and that would color your opinion.

    CR didn't KNOW he was going to be confronted. He likely thought he and LS were just going to walk to her apartment, no questions asked. Have you never tried to get away with something because the risk was so small? Regardless of whether or not the "list" was enforced, he was on it for a reason. No, the "list" wasn't going to be enforced if he was just walking in with Lauren, doing nothing wrong. But he had been in trouble at SW before. The moment he got into an altercation, the risk that he would be in some sort of trouble increased tenfold. Think of open container laws. In a lot of places, the cops will look the other way. But the moment you do something that causes a disturbance, they'll get you on it in an instant.

    And why wait around for the cops anyways? No one wants to deal with the cops regardless of who was "at fault." I got into a minor car accident a few weeks ago. I was not at fault, but instead of calling the cops, the other driver and I made an agreement amongst ourselves because we didn't want to go through the trouble. I just can not see why he would stick around and neither can most other people, so I'm going to drop it.
    Last edited by bonechaos; 07-27-2011 at 03:00 PM.
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  13. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluciano63 View Post
    I don't mean to say it is impossible...I just have a picture in my head of a bunch of guys with access to all kinds of vehicles and thinking "let's get her clear of here"...as I said, just a feeling.
    But we don't know if whoever is responsible had access to all kinds of vehicles. Even LE said early on that LS and some of her "buddies" didn't have vehicles.
    Just my opinion

  14. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluciano63 View Post
    No, I know...I just get a picture in my mind of a car being used if the students are involved, to get her out the area...no reason other than a feeling. I think they would want to distance themselves physically from where they say she was last seen.
    Well, if the people involved know the dumpster is being picked up before anyone would likely be looking for her then they'd also know they'd be distancing themselves physically from where they say she was last seen and where the body ultimately ended up. And rather easily I might add.

    Factor in them not knowing (which is easily possible) that trash ends up in specific areas of the landfill and in that case they'd really think they'd distanced her body from them and where she was last seen. If that thought is true they'd be thinking that even if the body is found at the landfill it could've came from any dumpster at any time and not necessarily pinpointed back to a dumpster near them or even any particular dumpster they had been around... ever...

    In a panic situation it just seems to me they'd want to dispose of the body as quickly as possible... not be driving around and risk further exposure to witnesses, speeding tickets, cameras, not being at home, car breakdowns, leaving evidence in the car, making the car a crime scene, etc..

    But that said, in a panic situation they likely wouldn't be thinking clearly either. And I use the term 'they' even though it's just as likely one person could be all that is involved based on what we know.

    Nothing I've read makes me discount the dumpster scenario at all. In fact, I only look at it as the stronger possibility.

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  16. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by GobBluth View Post
    These kids would just need a criminal atty, be it a prosecutor or defense atty, simply to help them navigate through the processes in this situation, even if they are not guilty.

    I was referred to a criminal defense atty to help me w/a situation w/a crazy ex that broke into my home and attacked me. I was the victim and not guilty of anything, but the communication w/prosecutors and defense atty and victim advocate etc was OVERwhelming.

    Another question for anyone, and again, this might have been answered, so I apologize if it has. Does JW have an alibi? I'm not accusing him, but I'm trying to piece it all together, and I keep going back to means, motive, and opportunity.
    He says he was at him home, watching a game, and then went to sleep afterwards. There was indeed a pretty big basketball game on that night, the NBA playoffs, so that supports his story. Whether or not LE buys it isn't clear.
    "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into." - Jonathan Swift

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  18. #360
    If Don Cranfill is working on the search effort directly with the Spierer's as indicated in post #337, then I don't see any reason to discredit his report of the cadaver dog hit on the dumpster where she was last seen. (Plus he said that it wasn't just the psychic's dogs that hit there, that LE cadaver dogs hit there too..I don't think that's a coincidence). Getting info from him is almost akin to getting info from the Spierer's if he is working side by side with them (per the post)

    Last seen place of LS that night is 5 North....no matter if they are talking about the camera evidence at 2:51am behind 5 North, or if they are referring to the boys seeing her at 5 North. Also remember that first report of the (person alive) search dogs losing her scent in the gravel lot behind 5 North? Not something that LE has said officially (of course). Everyone was saying taken from the gravel lot area by vehicle....anyone think a garbage truck is a vehicle? Definitely brings some of this together. 2+2=4
    JMO.

    Dumpster pickup at 5 North, as seen by the eyes of a poster here who is in B-town(but I don't have the exact post to quote), is Friday morning. So the post that someone else put on the previous page about about LE suspecting that she is in the landfill would make total sense. I just can't figure out from there why they wouldn't check the landfills. Hmmm.

    Don Cranfill also said on LS: Case Discussion facebook page that he could confirm the cadaver dog hit, that the Spierer's were notified, and that LE was notified....but that he couldn't comment on what LE did with that information (where the case went from there). I really hope that means that they are onto something and just can't report it.

    Is there any way that LE is/has in fact searching the landfill in Terra Haute and we just don't know anything about it? Could they find a way to keep that a secret? (hushing landfill workers or media that might follow them there and such somehow) Any ideas or example of this happening?

    If they couldn't find a body there, I don't think that they would want the POI's to know that....as that would take any heat off of them...all they would have to do is stay silent and they got away with it. No body, no hard evidence, no crime. Reasonable doubt most definitely rules here. No one wants that. May be a reason to keep it quiet in hopes of eventually breaking someone's silence. I dunno....just trying to think it thru.

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  20. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonechaos View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree here. I and many others have set forth the reasons why we believe it was best for them to leave. What I and others have suggested explains everything; your opinion leaves us without answers. I am assuming that you believe the kids at SW were involved with Lauren's disappearance - apologies if this isn't true - and that would color your opinion.

    CR didn't KNOW he was going to be confronted. He likely thought he and LS were just going to walk to her apartment, no questions asked. Have you never tried to get away with something because the risk was so small? Regardless of whether or not the "list" was enforced, he was on it for a reason. No, the "list" wasn't going to be enforced if he was just walking in with Lauren, doing nothing wrong. But he had been in trouble at SW before. The moment he got into an altercation, the risk that he would be in some sort of trouble increased tenfold. Think of open container laws. In a lot of places, the cops will look the other way. But the moment you do something that causes a disturbance, they'll get you on it in an instant.

    And why wait around for the cops anyways? No one wants to deal with the cops regardless of who was "at fault." I got into a minor car accident a few weeks ago. I was not at fault, but instead of calling the cops, the other driver and I made an agreement amongst ourselves because we didn't want to go through the trouble. I just can not see why he would stick around and neither can most other people, so I'm going to drop it.
    Well..obviously you theorize that CR left SW for fear of being caught on the premises and face possible trespass, pi, doc charges..etc
    I get it.
    If I follow correctly then you believe LS ultimately OD'd afterward and was disposed of in a dumpster...please correct as necessary.

    I wonder if the group of assailants were in as much a hurry to leave the premises as they had just committed an assault?
    Seems to me that they would have more reason to bolt then CR did.
    But then maybe they have a lesser fear of arrest then CR, after all they initiated the altercation?
    It's amazing to me how the victim could be that fearful of a police encounter while his assailants are seemingly the opposite.

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  22. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    But we don't know if whoever is responsible had access to all kinds of vehicles. Even LE said early on that LS and some of her "buddies" didn't have vehicles.
    I know this sounds stereotypical, but these kids were wealthy. I went to a big state school and mostly everyone had a vehicle, even those who weren't so well off. But I didn't know one wealthy kid who didn't own a vehicle. I know in places like NY and other urban areas you don't really need a vehicle, but this was Indiana. I know this is mostly my own personal anecdata, but applied to this situation, the likelihood that there wasn't a vehicle available is pretty small, imo.

    Edit: Just realized this post was dumb because LE said LS herself didn't have a vehicle. Embarrassing.
    "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into." - Jonathan Swift

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  24. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by always curious View Post
    <snip>

    If they couldn't find a body there, I don't think that they would want the POI's to know that....as that would take any heat off of them...all they would have to do is stay silent and they got away with it. No body, no hard evidence, no crime. Reasonable doubt most definitely rules here. No one wants that. May be a reason to keep it quiet in hopes of eventually breaking someone's silence. I dunno....just trying to think it thru.
    I have wondered about this myself. It seemed like there was such an outcry over the possibility that they hadn't and weren't going to search the landfill though that it really seemed like the public's faith in them was jeopardized - especially after the FB page was scrubbed - and no one wants that. But then it really did seem like the Spierers have confidence in LE, and they requested that no one protest at BPD after Lauren's Ride as had been considered. But again it seems like searching a landfill would be a huge operation, and really hard for observers (the press, eg) to miss.
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  25. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tr. View Post
    Well..obviously you theorize that CR left SW for fear of being caught on the premises and face possible trespass, pi, doc charges..etc
    I get it.
    If I follow correctly then you believe LS ultimately OD'd afterward and was disposed of in a dumpster...please correct as necessary.

    I wonder if the group of assailants were in as much a hurry to leave the premises as they had just committed an assault?
    Seems to me that they would have more reason to bolt then CR did.
    But then maybe they have a lesser fear of arrest then CR, after all they initiated the altercation?
    It's amazing to me how the victim could be that fearful of a police encounter while the his assailants are seemingly the opposite.
    I don't specifically think they left because CR was in fear of getting in trouble. I believe that possibility factored into it. My belief is that they wanted to avoid further drama, under which can be factored many types of specific things, including dealing with cops.

    Yes, I believe Lauren OD'd and her body was hidden. How? I have no idea, but a dumpster is certainly a possibility. The person who raises my suspicions the most is JR.
    "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into." - Jonathan Swift

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  27. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonechaos View Post
    I know this sounds stereotypical, but these kids were wealthy. I went to a big state school and mostly everyone had a vehicle, even those who weren't so well off. But I didn't know one wealthy kid who didn't own a vehicle. I know in places like NY and other urban areas you don't really need a vehicle, but this was Indiana. I know this is mostly my own personal anecdata, but applied to this situation, the likelihood that there wasn't a vehicle available is pretty small, imo.
    I don't disagree that one might expect wealthy kids to have vehicles. But going by what LE has stated early on, LS herself didn't have a vehicle and neither did some of her buddies.
    Just my opinion

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  29. #366
    At the least LE need to take cadaver dogs to the transfer station that would handle 5 North Townhouses. Where would that be?

  30. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    I don't disagree that one might expect wealthy kids to have vehicles. But going by what LE has stated early on, LS herself didn't have a vehicle and neither did some of her buddies.
    Yep - that statement went in one ear and out the other, lol. You're right, I apologize.
    "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into." - Jonathan Swift

  31. #368
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    Many people have questioned why JR would admit being the last person to see LS if he was involved with her disappearance. Here is why I believe he would. This assumes she was, indeed, with JR.

    1. He knew there was a possibility that someone would tell LE that she had gone to his place. LS probably told him she had just come from CR/MB's place when she got there. Therefore, he knew there was a possibility that LS told the boys where she was going before she left - i.e., "Okay, MB, I'm going to pop in at JR's now. See ya later." If MB told LE where she was headed (since CR apparently doesn't remember anything) and JR denied she had ever been there, that would cast even more suspicion on him than if he was upfront about it.

    2. He knew LS might have left DNA behind in his apartment. Fibers, whatever - I'm sure he watched CSI and the likes and was afraid that LE might swoop in, find one of Lauren's hairs, and charge him with murder. If he was caught lying about her being there and LE found her DNA in his apartment, he would be in big trouble.

    3. He had a guest there, by all accounts. If he lied about LS being there, and the guest said she was there, then he would, once again, be in big trouble.

    Getting caught lying is the number one way to be named a suspect. JR definitely had a reason to tell LE that LS was with him, guilty or not.
    "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into." - Jonathan Swift

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  33. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonechaos View Post
    I know this sounds stereotypical, but these kids were wealthy. I went to a big state school and mostly everyone had a vehicle, even those who weren't so well off. But I didn't know one wealthy kid who didn't own a vehicle. I know in places like NY and other urban areas you don't really need a vehicle, but this was Indiana. I know this is mostly my own personal anecdata, but applied to this situation, the likelihood that there wasn't a vehicle available is pretty small, imo.

    Edit: Just realized this post was dumb because LE said LS herself didn't have a vehicle. Embarrassing.
    I'm originally from a town in Westchester about 20 minutes away from Lauren's and I and several others I knew from my high school went to a very large midwestern state school. A number of us had cars but didn't bring them to campus at various times because parking was such a gigantic pain. By my junior year, the inconvenience of not being able to get the the laundromat and grocery store outweighed the inconvenience and expense of parking for me, but at least one of my HS friends never did have a car. Most who had them didn't bring them freshman/sophomore year.

    ----------------------
    Doh - just realize that you'd edited your comment to reflect LE's comments - sorry

    Anyway, if anyone is wondering why kids might not have a car even if they can afford one, parking can be a factor.
    Last edited by Skigirl; 07-27-2011 at 03:51 PM. Reason: update

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  35. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by bonechaos View Post
    Many people have questioned why JR would admit being the last person to see LS if he was involved with her disappearance. Here is why I believe he would. This assumes she was, indeed, with JR.

    1. He knew there was a possibility that someone would tell LE that she had gone to his place. LS probably told him she had just come from CR/MB's place when she got there. Therefore, he knew there was a possibility that LS told the boys where she was going before she left - i.e., "Okay, MB, I'm going to pop in at JR's now. See ya later." If MB told LE where she was headed (since CR apparently doesn't remember anything) and JR denied she had ever been there, that would cast even more suspicion on him than if he was upfront about it.

    2. He knew LS might have left DNA behind in his apartment. Fibers, whatever - I'm sure he watched CSI and the likes and was afraid that LE might swoop in, find one of Lauren's hairs, and charge him with murder. If he was caught lying about her being there and LE found her DNA in his apartment, he would be in big trouble.

    3. He had a guest there, by all accounts. If he lied about LS being there, and the guest said she was there, then he would, once against, be in big trouble.

    Getting caught lying is the number one way to be named a suspect. JR definitely had a reason to tell LE that LS was with him, guilty or not.
    Have we been made aware of what course of studies these boys were taking? I don't think I even heard.

  36. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by mamamia54 View Post
    Have we been made aware of what course of studies these boys were taking? I don't think I even heard.
    Some of them, yes - at least one of the guys - maybe Jesse -- was studying at SPEAS (School of Public and Environmental Affairs), another of the guys was studying management, maybe as an undergrad in the business school (or maybe also at SPEAS). My memory of what they were studying is a bit hazy, but it seemed that all or most were studying rather applied/professional things rather than core liberal arts like math or biology or english lit. If it's important I can find links and post.

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  38. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by always curious View Post

    Dumpster pickup at 5 North, as seen by the eyes of a poster here who is in B-town(but I don't have the exact post to quote), is Friday morning. So the post that someone else put on the previous page about about LE suspecting that she is in the landfill would make total sense. I just can't figure out from there why they wouldn't check the landfills. Hmmm.
    It's not Friday morning it is Friday evening 5:30 p.m. on the day that Btown observed anyway. I don't think any one of these POI could keep face with LS's body there all day.

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...er#post6938172


    Quote Originally Posted by always curious View Post
    Is there any way that LE is/has in fact searching the landfill in Terra Haute and we just don't know anything about it? Could they find a way to keep that a secret? (hushing landfill workers or media that might follow them there and such somehow) Any ideas or example of this happening?
    Yes, I've thought this is why they first said it was searched then said it wasn't. Of course most everyone wants to eviscerate them for being so incompetent and bungling the case when in fact it could prove to be a brilliant strategy. That's my hope anyway.

    They could also be searching right now, just not publicizing it which would be a media circus of course.

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  40. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Skigirl View Post
    Some of them, yes - at least one of the guys - maybe Jesse -- was studying at SPEAS (School of Public and Environmental Affairs), another of the guys was studying management, maybe as an undergrad in the business school (or maybe also at SPEAS). My memory of what they were studying is a bit hazy, but it seemed that all or most were studying rather applied/professional things rather than core liberal arts like math or biology or english lit. If it's important I can find links and post.
    Well, I had just wondered if any of them had any background in anthropology, biology etc.

  41. #374
    I may be wrong...but I remember someone posting about the POI's area of studies. I could have misread the post and be wrong, but I thought it said that JW and JR were both in SPEAS. No one ever commented on this...but it stuck in my mind for awhile. They are in different years of college...senior and sophomore...and JR was even studying abroad this past spring semester...so it's completely possible that they never ran into each other and it means nothing. But combined with them both being in the same sorority (when it was active along with it being underground)...and the fact that they both were linked to LS...some red flags went up in my mind.

    By all accounts I've read, they didn't know each other. But they seem to have an awful lot in common. Just saying....

  42. #375
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    Oh, if any one of these POI did not have a vehicle I have no doubt they could get one if they wanted.

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