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Thread: The Verdict - Do you agree or disagree? #3

  1. #1
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    The Verdict - Do you agree or disagree? #3

    Please continue here.

    WARNING: The bickering has to STOP. Just STOP. It is not a poster's job to convince another poster to see things their way. So stop trying..... If someone sees something differently, so be it. If you can't respond without bickering or trying to convince them different, than MOVE PAST THE POST. If necessary, use the Ignore feature found on your profile page.

    Think: What am I saying? Am I trying to convince them they are wrong? If so, I better not hit post, cuz if I do, Salem is gonna tell Beach or JMeanerthanheck and I'm gonna get a TO.

    ALSO - please remember that name calling will be removed. If you write a really good post, but then call someone names, the ENTIRE post will be removed. All your HARD WORK down the drain. THINK before hitting the POST BUTTON.

    All TOS apply - attack the post, NOT the poster. Don't bicker. If someone is getting under your skin, USE the IGNORE button.

    As always - if you have questions or problems with moderation or another poster - PM a member of the MOD TEAM. Don't respond in the thread because the responsibility lies with YOU and YOU will be the one that gets the TO.

    Thanks Everybody!

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    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145081"]Thread 1[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145547"]Thread 2[/ame]


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  3. #2
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    Originally posted by Gladiatorqueen from thread #1:

    I don't personally believe the state acted poorly or carelessly, but I think a majority of the evidence was particularly risky in the way it was presented.

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/07/15/...nce/index.html

    This one too:

    http://jurylaw.typepad.com/deliberat...recedents.html

    Quote:
    A cause of death that cannot be determined by the State’s medical examiner, but can be asserted on the stand by an anthropologist who has never done an autopsy. The morphing of a projected child’s photo into a picture of her skull. The description of a colorless decompositional fluid (which is typically black). Air samples that contain "the smell of death." A phantom image of heart sticker that “disappeared” before the examiner could return to photograph it.
    I also believe that many of the witnesses were questionable from the Anthonys to Kronk to the ME who seemed to be coming up with a manner of death that was distrustful based on the fact that the remains were shifted by Kronk and definitely the weather.
    I agree that there was overreaching done by prosecution, specifically to prove capital murder. The evidence they gave in the trial did not convince me of capital murder, in fact, it shoved me toward manslaughter more firmly than I was originally. IMO, she could have committed premeditated murder, but the state's evidence, once on the table, didn't convince me.

    As for the articles, that first article was very good, it gave me a lot of new stuff to think about. It did give me pause to wonder how some of the evidence was allowed, specifically the demonstration with Caylee's face and the duct tape, and Dr Vass's maverick research. I look forward to Dr Vass's research becoming more stardardized in the future, maybe it was "not ready" for court, as the author in the first article stated.

    However . . . in spite of these (agreed by me) shortcomings, overwhelmingly, the evidence given as a whole was sufficient to prove beyond reasonable doubt that something bad happened to cause Caylee's death and the only person reasonably responsible, at that time, was Casey.

    Reasonable doubt about several particular bits of evidence doesn't lead logically to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    You don't acquit because a few puzzle pieces are misshapen. You can still see what the picture is in spite of missing puzzle pieces. This is not neurosurgery . It's the real world.

    All the jury needed to do was determine a simple thing. Who (not what) was the responsible party in this child's death?

    They did not have the responsibility or the right (not quite the word I'm looking for, but anyway) to absolve Casey Anthony of the RESPONSIBILITY for the death of her child because some of the evidence presented did not prove she killed her in cold blood.

    Those were decent articles, though, thanks for sharing them

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  5. #3
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    I disagree with the verdict

    I've spent the last several weeks away from the board after I heard the verdict. I have to be honest, first I was shocked, then I was completely in denial (I was on vacation, perhaps my intelligence was wrong?), next followed the various experiences of anger/rage, bargaining (perhaps the FBI can get her on additional charges, etc). I am not yet truly in the acceptance phase.

    I feel a murderer has been allowed to walk free. For whatever series of awful coincidence and circumstance, Caylee Anthony has certainly not received justice. To me that is the bottom line.

    The jury should have considered the case longer. I am certain the politics of the jury room affected the decision. Having served on a jury in a minor case, I know how difficult it is to speak up and not be swayed by peer pressure. Strong personalities dominate. There was a cruise to be taken. I do not care if there were tears and harsh realities of confusing circumstantial evidence and the law. If that was so, then the real evidence should certainly have been called back and clarification on points of the law asked for. Someone was pushing to get out of there quickly, before they did any real deliberation and came to a real verdict. Who? I do think they should all be looked at for misconduct. If they come out clean, good for them, let's drop the speculation. I am seriously thinking the idea of profession juries makes sense when I hear verdicts like this.

    The judge in this case was so attentive to any detail that would avoid the chance of appeal, preferential treatment was given in some cases to the defence, some will argue too often and with bias. Not me.

    The defence team did seem to my uneducated eye and ear to make ethical violations in the pursuit of their defence. I do not feel in any way they did a brilliant job at anything other than creating a farce of an atmosphere and taking great advantage of the judge and the prosecution's absolute integrity, over and over again.

    The witness lied. CA obfuscated the truth and no jury should really have to figure out how to find truth within the testimony presented to them, even if it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be false after the fact. It is not their job. There should be true consequences for this deliberate lying, both to CA herself, her attorney, and the defence lawyers for laying that travesty of justice out there. Someone told her what to say about the things she looked up in those searches - she is not that smart. Other people will take her lead in lying if they are not brought to justice, especially CA. She should receive absolute maximum penalties for what she did. I am certain that she lied about many many worse things during this case as well, at least get her on what they can.

    The prosecution team did not have the strongest evidence to work with, but the evidence of a body in the mother's car seems pretty strong to me. Setting out additional charges might have helped, but I doubt the jury would have actually considered any lesser charge for any greater consideration, given the lack of even a guilty verdict on the aggravated child abuse charge. Caylee Anthony died in the care of her mother and ended up bagged like trash in the woods. There really has to be some accountability there. Right there.

    I fault the jury. If I was one of those people, I would truly not be able to live with myself, realizing I had made such an enormous mistake. Blame the weather if you have to, but our legal system should be able to see beyond that hurricane. I blame the jury, the defence, and of course the Anthony family, CA and GA for raising a lying murderer and not intervening, even covering up, and of course the murderer herself. She will, I promise, get whatever karma is due her. I just hope it happens sooner rather than later, so we can all see it and get some of our lost hope and faith back in our justice system. I am thrilled to see that no one is willing to interview Casey, nor hire her lawyers. I personally will never watch any of them, read their books or in any way support any of the family foundations. Caylee Anthony on the other hands, has my support and prayers, she always has and always will.

    Sorry to vent and do it so verbosely, after taking time off and not reading previous posts in this thread, 2 things I rarely do. I am certain everything I said has been said better and often since the verdict came down, i just needed to get it off my own mind for some peace, if not reconciliation, with this verdict. So thank you for asking

    loreet


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    Exactly, how can you have a fair match if one side has to tell the truth and the other deliberately lies. As soon as Baez started, with it Ashton should have approached the bench and Perry should have told Baez you better have some evidence or your going to mistrial. The trial was a joke as it turned out. George standing in front of his house with Caylee's body...where does this Baez come up with this trash?

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  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by loreet View Post
    I've spent the last several weeks away from the board after I heard the verdict. I have to be honest, first I was shocked, then I was completely in denial (I was on vacation, perhaps my intelligence was wrong?), next followed the various experiences of anger/rage, bargaining (perhaps the FBI can get her on additional charges, etc). I am not yet truly in the acceptance phase.

    I feel a murderer has been allowed to walk free. For whatever series of awful coincidence and circumstance, Caylee Anthony has certainly not received justice. To me that is the bottom line.

    The jury should have considered the case longer. I am certain the politics of the jury room affected the decision. Having served on a jury in a minor case, I know how difficult it is to speak up and not be swayed by peer pressure. Strong personalities dominate. There was a cruise to be taken. I do not care if there were tears and harsh realities of confusing circumstantial evidence and the law. If that was so, then the real evidence should certainly have been called back and clarification on points of the law asked for. Someone was pushing to get out of there quickly, before they did any real deliberation and came to a real verdict. Who? I do think they should all be looked at for misconduct. If they come out clean, good for them, let's drop the speculation. I am seriously thinking the idea of profession juries makes sense when I hear verdicts like this.

    The judge in this case was so attentive to any detail that would avoid the chance of appeal, preferential treatment was given in some cases to the defence, some will argue too often and with bias. Not me.

    The defence team did seem to my uneducated eye and ear to make ethical violations in the pursuit of their defence. I do not feel in any way they did a brilliant job at anything other than creating a farce of an atmosphere and taking great advantage of the judge and the prosecution's absolute integrity, over and over again.

    The witness lied. CA obfuscated the truth and no jury should really have to figure out how to find truth within the testimony presented to them, even if it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be false after the fact. It is not their job. There should be true consequences for this deliberate lying, both to CA herself, her attorney, and the defence lawyers for laying that travesty of justice out there. Someone told her what to say about the things she looked up in those searches - she is not that smart. Other people will take her lead in lying if they are not brought to justice, especially CA. She should receive absolute maximum penalties for what she did. I am certain that she lied about many many worse things during this case as well, at least get her on what they can.

    The prosecution team did not have the strongest evidence to work with, but the evidence of a body in the mother's car seems pretty strong to me. Setting out additional charges might have helped, but I doubt the jury would have actually considered any lesser charge for any greater consideration, given the lack of even a guilty verdict on the aggravated child abuse charge. Caylee Anthony died in the care of her mother and ended up bagged like trash in the woods. There really has to be some accountability there. Right there.

    I fault the jury. If I was one of those people, I would truly not be able to live with myself, realizing I had made such an enormous mistake. Blame the weather if you have to, but our legal system should be able to see beyond that hurricane. I blame the jury, the defence, and of course the Anthony family, CA and GA for raising a lying murderer and not intervening, even covering up, and of course the murderer herself. She will, I promise, get whatever karma is due her. I just hope it happens sooner rather than later, so we can all see it and get some of our lost hope and faith back in our justice system. I am thrilled to see that no one is willing to interview Casey, nor hire her lawyers. I personally will never watch any of them, read their books or in any way support any of the family foundations. Caylee Anthony on the other hands, has my support and prayers, she always has and always will.

    Sorry to vent and do it so verbosely, after taking time off and not reading previous posts in this thread, 2 things I rarely do. I am certain everything I said has been said better and often since the verdict came down, i just needed to get it off my own mind for some peace, if not reconciliation, with this verdict. So thank you for asking

    loreet
    The thanks button wasn't enough. You have expressed exactly how I have been feeling and thinking, so much more eloquently than I could. Thanks!


  9. #6
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    I agree with the verdict. There have been numerous posts of some who agree with the verdict and why, and many who don't and why. Both points of view have merit. I could list the all the reasons why I agree with the verdict again, as I have in a number of past posts, however, <modsnip>. There is one poll that has 56% who disagree and 44% who agree. That poll is as accurate as any other poll in the mainstream media. On this site, which is an advocate for children, the percentage is probably closer to 85 to 90% who disagree and 10 to 15% who agree.

    We just returned from a week's vacation in Miami. I have a very independent, smart, but just too friendly 9 year old granddaughter, and I was paranoid every minute she was out of my sight. LOL. Part of the reason for my paranoi, was from reading about so many tragic events that are posted on this site. Knowing how many children of all ages go missing every year makes me very paranoid (cautious, is probably a better word ). I am just as para..... er cautious here at home in the big city, because children disappear in a heartbeat. The point I am trying to make is that those of us who frequent this site, love children, and when someone does something bad to a child, we want the person responsible for the bad thing to pay for harming the child.

    I do not now, nor have I ever believed that anyone murdered Caylee. I believe Caylee drown in the pool on the morning of the 16th in June of 2008. I believe both GA and KC were in the house when this tragedy occurred. I agree with the verdict, because there is no way to determine which of these two were responsible for Caylee at the time.

    That being said, I think they should have called 911. There are very few reasons I can think of as to WHY they did not call 911. The only reasons I can think of are very bad, very, very bad, but not murder. That was the beginning of the snowball that got out of control. When neither GA nor KC called 911, the snowball started rolling, and one bad thing led to another. Whether it was grief, trying to hide some dark secret, fear of CA, or just plain panic, leaving Caylee's body in the woods seems like a terrible thing to do. Then the bad behavior, the bad checks, and then the lying to police. All of which would have been avoided had either KC or GA called 911 in the first place.

    Caylee died of a drowning accident. Depending on what was happening inside the A's home at the time Caylee drown, would determine who was truly responsible. If GA was still asleep, and KC was on the phone or computer, then KC was responsible. If KC asked GA to watch Caylee for a few while she showered, then GA was responsible. If this family is as dysfunctional as it sometimes seems to be, who could ever really know what happened that morning, even if GA or KC did a tell all interview, who could believe either of them? Not me.

    If KC is just a dumb kid, who wasn't paying attention to her child, and her child drowned, she will live with that guilt the rest of her life. If she sells her story, either by book, interviews, or movie rights, and she makes enough to pay the state off (saving the taxpayers money), to pay TES and to pay any other costs for the multitude that is suing her, and to get herself some good counseling, then I don't have a problem with that.

    If KC is the mastermind murderess that many think she is, and she got away with murder, well, she will find out what a spiteful Bi*#& Karma is. I won't have a problem with that either. I do believe those who are truly evil on this earth, will never rest in peace.

    As for the jurors, in the polls I saw pre verdict, the overall average guess was it would take less than 3 hours of deliberation. Most people thought it would not take very long to come to a decision. It took this jury 3 and a half times longer than what most people thought it would take. They unanimously agreed to not guilty on the first 3 counts, and guilty on the last 4 counts. I think they came to the right decision based on the testimony and evidence presented at trial. In its simplest form, the state did not present the evidence to prove a premeditated murder beyond a reasonable doubt, and on counts 2 and 3, the jury could not determine whether KC or GA was responsible for Caylee, beyond a reasonable doubt, at the time Caylee died. So, in my opinion, they made the right decision on all counts.

    As always, my entire post is my opinion only.
    Last edited by Salem; 08-02-2011 at 11:28 PM.
    The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.-- Gandhi

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  11. #7

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    From thread 2.
    Post by GMX--excellent post
    Just as the trial confirmed for me that Caylee's death was not accidental, this thread has confirmed for me that at least one juror knew more about the case than he/she admitted and entered the courtroom with an opinion and agenda already well formed. The extraordinary leaps the pro-verdict supporters are making are staggering in the depth and breadth of unsubstantiated rumor and misinformed bias they appear to spring from
    bbm / again thanks GMX

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  13. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedeviledadvocate View Post
    I agree with the verdict. There have been numerous posts of some who agree with the verdict and why, and many who don't and why. Both points of view have merit. I could list the all the reasons why I agree with the verdict again, as I have in a number of past posts, however, <modsnip>. There is one poll that has 56% who disagree and 44% who agree. That poll is as accurate as any other poll in the mainstream media. On this site, which is an advocate for children, the percentage is probably closer to 85 to 90% who disagree and 10 to 15% who agree.

    We just returned from a week's vacation in Miami. I have a very independent, smart, but just too friendly 9 year old granddaughter, and I was paranoid every minute she was out of my sight. LOL. Part of the reason for my paranoi, was from reading about so many tragic events that are posted on this site. Knowing how many children of all ages go missing every year makes me very paranoid (cautious, is probably a better word ). I am just as para..... er cautious here at home in the big city, because children disappear in a heartbeat. The point I am trying to make is that those of us who frequent this site, love children, and when someone does something bad to a child, we want the person responsible for the bad thing to pay for harming the child.

    I do not now, nor have I ever believed that anyone murdered Caylee. I believe Caylee drown in the pool on the morning of the 16th in June of 2008. I believe both GA and KC were in the house when this tragedy occurred. I agree with the verdict, because there is no way to determine which of these two were responsible for Caylee at the time.

    That being said, I think they should have called 911. There are very few reasons I can think of as to WHY they did not call 911. The only reasons I can think of are very bad, very, very bad, but not murder. That was the beginning of the snowball that got out of control. When neither GA nor KC called 911, the snowball started rolling, and one bad thing led to another. Whether it was grief, trying to hide some dark secret, fear of CA, or just plain panic, leaving Caylee's body in the woods seems like a terrible thing to do. Then the bad behavior, the bad checks, and then the lying to police. All of which would have been avoided had either KC or GA called 911 in the first place.

    Caylee died of a drowning accident. Depending on what was happening inside the A's home at the time Caylee drown, would determine who was truly responsible. If GA was still asleep, and KC was on the phone or computer, then KC was responsible. If KC asked GA to watch Caylee for a few while she showered, then GA was responsible. If this family is as dysfunctional as it sometimes seems to be, who could ever really know what happened that morning, even if GA or KC did a tell all interview, who could believe either of them? Not me.

    If KC is just a dumb kid, who wasn't paying attention to her child, and her child drowned, she will live with that guilt the rest of her life. If she sells her story, either by book, interviews, or movie rights, and she makes enough to pay the state off (saving the taxpayers money), to pay TES and to pay any other costs for the multitude that is suing her, and to get herself some good counseling, then I don't have a problem with that.

    If KC is the mastermind murderess that many think she is, and she got away with murder, well, she will find out what a spiteful Bi*#& Karma is. I won't have a problem with that either. I do believe those who are truly evil on this earth, will never rest in peace.

    As for the jurors, in the polls I saw pre verdict, the overall average guess was it would take less than 3 hours of deliberation. Most people thought it would not take very long to come to a decision. It took this jury 3 and a half times longer than what most people thought it would take. They unanimously agreed to not guilty on the first 3 counts, and guilty on the last 4 counts. I think they came to the right decision based on the testimony and evidence presented at trial. In its simplest form, the state did not present the evidence to prove a premeditated murder beyond a reasonable doubt, and on counts 2 and 3, the jury could not determine whether KC or GA was responsible for Caylee, beyond a reasonable doubt, at the time Caylee died. So, in my opinion, they made the right decision on all counts.

    As always, my entire post is my opinion only.
    Very well said!
    Last edited by Salem; 08-02-2011 at 11:29 PM.

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  15. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedeviledadvocate View Post
    I agree with the verdict. There have been numerous posts of some who agree with the verdict and why, and many who don't and why. Both points of view have merit. I could list the all the reasons why I agree with the verdict again, as I have in a number of past posts, however, those who disagree with the verdict, will disagree with everything I post. There is one poll that has 56% who disagree and 44% who agree. That poll is as accurate as any other poll in the mainstream media. On this site, which is an advocate for children, the percentage is probably closer to 85 to 90% who disagree and 10 to 15% who agree.

    We just returned from a week's vacation in Miami. I have a very independent, smart, but just too friendly 9 year old granddaughter, and I was paranoid every minute she was out of my sight. LOL. Part of the reason for my paranoi, was from reading about so many tragic events that are posted on this site. Knowing how many children of all ages go missing every year makes me very paranoid (cautious, is probably a better word ). I am just as para..... er cautious here at home in the big city, because children disappear in a heartbeat. The point I am trying to make is that those of us who frequent this site, love children, and when someone does something bad to a child, we want the person responsible for the bad thing to pay for harming the child.

    I do not now, nor have I ever believed that anyone murdered Caylee. I believe Caylee drown in the pool on the morning of the 16th in June of 2008. I believe both GA and KC were in the house when this tragedy occurred. I agree with the verdict, because there is no way to determine which of these two were responsible for Caylee at the time.

    That being said, I think they should have called 911. There are very few reasons I can think of as to WHY they did not call 911. The only reasons I can think of are very bad, very, very bad, but not murder. That was the beginning of the snowball that got out of control. When neither GA nor KC called 911, the snowball started rolling, and one bad thing led to another. Whether it was grief, trying to hide some dark secret, fear of CA, or just plain panic, leaving Caylee's body in the woods seems like a terrible thing to do. Then the bad behavior, the bad checks, and then the lying to police. All of which would have been avoided had either KC or GA called 911 in the first place.

    Caylee died of a drowning accident. Depending on what was happening inside the A's home at the time Caylee drown, would determine who was truly responsible. If GA was still asleep, and KC was on the phone or computer, then KC was responsible. If KC asked GA to watch Caylee for a few while she showered, then GA was responsible. If this family is as dysfunctional as it sometimes seems to be, who could ever really know what happened that morning, even if GA or KC did a tell all interview, who could believe either of them? Not me.

    If KC is just a dumb kid, who wasn't paying attention to her child, and her child drowned, she will live with that guilt the rest of her life. If she sells her story, either by book, interviews, or movie rights, and she makes enough to pay the state off (saving the taxpayers money), to pay TES and to pay any other costs for the multitude that is suing her, and to get herself some good counseling, then I don't have a problem with that.

    If KC is the mastermind murderess that many think she is, and she got away with murder, well, she will find out what a spiteful Bi*#& Karma is. I won't have a problem with that either. I do believe those who are truly evil on this earth, will never rest in peace.

    As for the jurors, in the polls I saw pre verdict, the overall average guess was it would take less than 3 hours of deliberation. Most people thought it would not take very long to come to a decision. It took this jury 3 and a half times longer than what most people thought it would take. They unanimously agreed to not guilty on the first 3 counts, and guilty on the last 4 counts. I think they came to the right decision based on the testimony and evidence presented at trial. In its simplest form, the state did not present the evidence to prove a premeditated murder beyond a reasonable doubt, and on counts 2 and 3, the jury could not determine whether KC or GA was responsible for Caylee, beyond a reasonable doubt, at the time Caylee died. So, in my opinion, they made the right decision on all counts.

    As always, my entire post is my opinion only.
    With all due respect ...

    Please help us out and publish these polls where it was said that it would take less than 3 hours of deliberation time. I'd really like to know who conducted the poll and who was polled.

    Please also tell us what those very bad, bad reasons might be as to why someone would not call 911 if Caylee was not murdered. Please also tell us why a loving grandfather and supposedly loving mother would dump their loved one in a swamp for animals to chew on. I'm sure you couldn't even imagine that happening to your 9-year-old granddaughter, could you ?

    Please continue and tell us why a woman would sit in jail for almost 3 years because of an accident. I know it's hard to believe that a loving mother would harm her child, but by all outside accounts, Darlie Routier was a loving mother as was Susan Smith as was Andrea Yates.
    Last edited by Sustained; 08-02-2011 at 07:59 PM.

    DEFENDANT IS A LIAR + DEFENDANT'S KID GOES MISSING + DEFENDANT REPORTS KID MISSING AFTER 31 DAYS + KID IS FOUND DEAD = DEFENDANT KILLED KID


  16. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sustained View Post
    With all due respect ...

    Please help us out and publish these polls where it was said that it would take less than 3 hours of deliberation time. I'd really like to know who conducted the poll and who was polled.

    Please also tell us what those very bad, bad reasons might be as to why someone would not call 911 if Caylee was not murdered. Please also tell us why a loving grandfather and supposedly loving mother would dump their loved one in a field for animals to chew on. I'm sure you couldn't even imagine that happening to your 9-year-old granddaughter, could you ?

    Please continue and tell us why a woman would sit in jail for almost 3 years because of an accident. I know it's hard to believe that a loving mother would harm her child, but by all outside accounts, Darlie Routier was a loving mother as was Susan Smith as was Andrea Yates.
    Well said!! And just to add....that Bella Vita tattoo! What loving mother of an accidently killed child would get that while knowing her daughter was dead where those animals could get her?? I seriously doubt any mother would. That is way way waaay beyond "ugly coping". That tattoo says it all.
    "The stars in the sky illuminate below. The light is the sign that love will guide you home." -AVA

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  18. #11
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    respectfully snipped by me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sustained View Post
    With all due respect ...

    Please help us out and publish these polls where it was said that it would take less than 3 hours of deliberation time. I'd really like to know who conducted the poll and who was polled.
    I'm not sure what polls thedeviledadvocate is referring to but on this forum the question was asked and the average time that most websleuthers thought the jury would deliberate was 2 days or as one poster commented: 9.325 Hours which might equate to 2 days with breaks and questions.

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...highlight=jury

    I think a day was about the average time I saw on other sites but I could be wrong. I remember thinking that it would be 2 or 3 days and debating with someone on here who thought it wouldnt take less than an hour to find her guilty.

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  20. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Who_What_When View Post
    respectfully snipped by me...



    I'm not sure what polls thedeviledadvocate is referring to but on this forum the question was asked and the average time that most websleuthers thought the jury would deliberate was 2 days or as one poster commented: 9.325 Hours which might equate to 2 days with breaks and questions.

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...highlight=jury

    I think a day was about the average time I saw on other sites but I could be wrong. I remember thinking that it would be 2 or 3 days and debating with someone on here who thought it wouldnt take less than an hour to find her guilty.
    I would have been more interested in polling past jurors that had sat on a trial with approximately the same amount of complicated expert testimony and amount of evidence. Also, I did not participate in the WS poll and would have found her guilty of felony murder by aggravated child abuse. But I can tell you based on all of the evidence seen, my estimate would have been 5-7 days to give all of the evidence the time it deserved and try to piece the circumstantial puzzle together.

    DEFENDANT IS A LIAR + DEFENDANT'S KID GOES MISSING + DEFENDANT REPORTS KID MISSING AFTER 31 DAYS + KID IS FOUND DEAD = DEFENDANT KILLED KID

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  22. #13
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    There is one aspect concerning the jury of which I am certain and it is this...if I had young children I would never ever allow them to be around any of these jurors.

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    Every experienced lawyer which I heard commenting on how long it would take to reach a verdict stated that it would be at least 3 or 4 days minimum. Even experienced lawyers both prosecutors as well as defense were shocked that this jury reached a verdict in such a complicated case in less than 12 hours.

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  26. #15
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    I don't agree with the verdict
    Like I have said before I am not going into the why's as so many other people here say it alot better than I could .
    "Don't pee on my head and tell me it's raining" ~Judge Judy

    Revenge is beneath me , but accidents DO happen .

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    Quote Originally Posted by librazone View Post
    There is one aspect concerning the jury of which I am certain and it is this...if I had young children I would never ever allow them to be around any of these jurors.
    Wow. That seems pretty harsh. Just because they didn't feel that the SA proved BARD that Casey was guilty of murdering Caylee, it means they are dangerous people and shouldn't be around children?

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  30. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sustained View Post
    I would have been more interested in polling past jurors that had sat on a trial with approximately the same amount of complicated expert testimony and amount of evidence. Also, I did not participate in the WS poll and would have found her guilty of felony murder by aggravated child abuse. But I can tell you based on all of the evidence seen, my estimate would have been 5-7 days to give all of the evidence the time it deserved and try to piece the circumstantial puzzle together.
    I was just sharing the poll we had on here as I thought it was interesting and might be helpful. As I said earlier I really thought it would be 2 or 3 days.

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  32. #18
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    No I dont mean they are dangerous in a physical manner but certainly people who are unable to follow a logical thought process... that is are unable to follow things through in any particular situation are not the type of people I would want around young children. Of course this probably applies to many other people as well. Just saying.

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  34. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by librazone View Post
    No I dont mean they are dangerous in a physical manner but certainly people who are unable to follow a logical thought process... that is are unable to follow things through in any particular situation are not the type of people I would want around young children. Of course this probably applies to many other people as well. Just saying.
    Thanks for clarifying. Unfortunately that probably wipes out half the population. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sustained View Post
    With all due respect ...

    Please help us out and publish these polls where it was said that it would take less than 3 hours of deliberation time. I'd really like to know who conducted the poll and who was polled.

    Please also tell us what those very bad, bad reasons might be as to why someone would not call 911 if Caylee was not murdered. Please also tell us why a loving grandfather and supposedly loving mother would dump their loved one in a swamp for animals to chew on. I'm sure you couldn't even imagine that happening to your 9-year-old granddaughter, could you ?

    Please continue and tell us why a woman would sit in jail for almost 3 years because of an accident. I know it's hard to believe that a loving mother would harm her child, but by all outside accounts, Darlie Routier was a loving mother as was Susan Smith as was Andrea Yates.

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  37. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedeviledadvocate View Post
    I agree with the verdict. There have been numerous posts of some who agree with the verdict and why, and many who don't and why. Both points of view have merit. I could list the all the reasons why I agree with the verdict again, as I have in a number of past posts, however, <modsnip>. There is one poll that has 56% who disagree and 44% who agree. That poll is as accurate as any other poll in the mainstream media. On this site, which is an advocate for children, the percentage is probably closer to 85 to 90% who disagree and 10 to 15% who agree.

    We just returned from a week's vacation in Miami. I have a very independent, smart, but just too friendly 9 year old granddaughter, and I was paranoid every minute she was out of my sight. LOL. Part of the reason for my paranoi, was from reading about so many tragic events that are posted on this site. Knowing how many children of all ages go missing every year makes me very paranoid (cautious, is probably a better word ). I am just as para..... er cautious here at home in the big city, because children disappear in a heartbeat. The point I am trying to make is that those of us who frequent this site, love children, and when someone does something bad to a child, we want the person responsible for the bad thing to pay for harming the child.

    I do not now, nor have I ever believed that anyone murdered Caylee. I believe Caylee drown in the pool on the morning of the 16th in June of 2008. I believe both GA and KC were in the house when this tragedy occurred. I agree with the verdict, because there is no way to determine which of these two were responsible for Caylee at the time.

    That being said, I think they should have called 911. There are very few reasons I can think of as to WHY they did not call 911. The only reasons I can think of are very bad, very, very bad, but not murder. That was the beginning of the snowball that got out of control. When neither GA nor KC called 911, the snowball started rolling, and one bad thing led to another. Whether it was grief, trying to hide some dark secret, fear of CA, or just plain panic, leaving Caylee's body in the woods seems like a terrible thing to do. Then the bad behavior, the bad checks, and then the lying to police. All of which would have been avoided had either KC or GA called 911 in the first place.

    Caylee died of a drowning accident. Depending on what was happening inside the A's home at the time Caylee drown, would determine who was truly responsible. If GA was still asleep, and KC was on the phone or computer, then KC was responsible. If KC asked GA to watch Caylee for a few while she showered, then GA was responsible. If this family is as dysfunctional as it sometimes seems to be, who could ever really know what happened that morning, even if GA or KC did a tell all interview, who could believe either of them? Not me.

    If KC is just a dumb kid, who wasn't paying attention to her child, and her child drowned, she will live with that guilt the rest of her life. If she sells her story, either by book, interviews, or movie rights, and she makes enough to pay the state off (saving the taxpayers money), to pay TES and to pay any other costs for the multitude that is suing her, and to get herself some good counseling, then I don't have a problem with that.

    If KC is the mastermind murderess that many think she is, and she got away with murder, well, she will find out what a spiteful Bi*#& Karma is. I won't have a problem with that either. I do believe those who are truly evil on this earth, will never rest in peace.

    As for the jurors, in the polls I saw pre verdict, the overall average guess was it would take less than 3 hours of deliberation. Most people thought it would not take very long to come to a decision. It took this jury 3 and a half times longer than what most people thought it would take. They unanimously agreed to not guilty on the first 3 counts, and guilty on the last 4 counts. I think they came to the right decision based on the testimony and evidence presented at trial. In its simplest form, the state did not present the evidence to prove a premeditated murder beyond a reasonable doubt, and on counts 2 and 3, the jury could not determine whether KC or GA was responsible for Caylee, beyond a reasonable doubt, at the time Caylee died. So, in my opinion, they made the right decision on all counts.

    As always, my entire post is my opinion only.
    I just want to say that your post is both tactful and sensitive to either side, "guilty" or "not guilty" believers. While reading it, I realized there have been a lot of people that were "sitting on the fence" at one point, then believing she was "guilty", back and forth at least a few times. I know that I thought even before JB put out the opening remarks, maybe it was an accident, she got scared and proceeded on with her life seemingly as normal to keep the inevitable truth from coming out. But, then the DT came up with the extenuating circumstances (allegedly) and it threw my room for "doubt" out the window. All I'm saying is this really. No matter what I believe, I admit to have been one of those "sitting on the fence" people at more than point throughout the course of this case. So, rather than feeling as though I had to take a side in the end, no I did not. I chose to but, I think sometimes posters feel they have to choose the white hat or the black. Your post made me realize that I really do not know what happened in reality. I don't believe it is absolutely as JB put it but, maybe something in between. We may never know. It's just a shame that Caylee became secondary in importance. Seems the verdict did.
    Last edited by Salem; 08-02-2011 at 11:29 PM.
    My posts are my opinion only.....

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  39. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedeviledadvocate View Post
    We just returned from a week's vacation in Miami. I have a very independent, smart, but just too friendly 9 year old granddaughter, and I was paranoid every minute she was out of my sight. LOL. Part of the reason for my paranoia, was from reading about so many tragic events that are posted on this site. Knowing how many children of all ages go missing every year makes me very paranoid (cautious, is probably a better word ).
    The statistical majority of children who go missing or are murdered, if this board is representative of life, are missing or dead because of either their mother or father (figure).

    It's part of the detective's toolbox to take into consideration that dead children are most likely dead because a parent killed them, not a stranger. A verdict cannot be given based on statistics, of course, but the common sense and reason that leads up to a verdict certainly should include this fact.

    Caylee was never a missing or abducted person. Someone whom she trusted killed her or carelessly allowed her death.



    I am just as para..... er cautious here at home in the big city, because children disappear in a heartbeat. The point I am trying to make is that those of us who frequent this site, love children, and when someone does something bad to a child, we want the person responsible for the bad thing to pay for harming the child.
    Yep, me too

    One thing to remember is that this forum also contains professionals in LE and hundreds of laypeople who, because of their interest in the subject, are as astute in their layperson perceptions as the professionals. There's no way to generalize folks here so narrowly , though concern and seeking justice for a tragic death/murder is definitely 100%.

    I do not now, nor have I ever believed that anyone murdered Caylee. I believe Caylee drown in the pool on the morning of the 16th in June of 2008.
    In spite of this premise being disallowed by Judge Perry in the closing arguments as having a conspicuous lack of evidence, even circumstantial?

    I believe both GA and KC were in the house when this tragedy occurred. I agree with the verdict, because there is no way to determine which of these two were responsible for Caylee at the time.
    <modsnip>

    <modsnip>

    Caylee drowning the the pool and being dumped in a swamp by people who testified in agony to have loved and cherished her is a STORY, it is a wormie on the hook the defense through out to create reasonable doubt. Without actual evidence to back up this story, that's all it is, a story. And knowing the "tellers" of this story, it is fictional

    Folks who are not mentally ill with some psychotic illness (ruled out by six shrinks) tend to be behave in predictable ways. It is this fact that allows most crimes to be solved. We are predictable, and there are some behaviors and motivations we can dream up in fictional novels but IRL, they just don't happen.

    IMO, the above is just another way of describing common sense. I can see plot like yours happening in a Jodi Picoult novel, but not in real life.

    That being said, I think they should have called 911. There are very few reasons I can think of as to WHY they did not call 911. The only reasons I can think of are very bad, very, very bad, but not murder. That was the beginning of the snowball that got out of control. When neither GA nor KC called 911, the snowball started rolling, and one bad thing led to another. Whether it was grief, trying to hide some dark secret, fear of CA, or just plain panic, leaving Caylee's body in the woods seems like a terrible thing to do. Then the bad behavior, the bad checks, and then the lying to police. All of which would have been avoided had either KC or GA called 911 in the first place.
    I completely agree that this is probably accurate as heck to describe the "snowball effect". Inserting George Anthony in the mix, though . . . why? Wouldn't the detectives have ascertained at least a HINT of this and followed through? I believe they followed through alright, and ruled George out, like, in August, maybe even July. That train left the station three years ago. The cops did their jobs, George wasn't a suspect, end of story.

    <modsnip>, mine is based upon concrete evidence and fact (read: I sincerely believe, within reason, OSCO did a good enough job from the get go, so, my premise is based upon the evidence they gathered).

    <modsnip>.

    Caylee died of a drowning accident. Depending on what was happening inside the A's home at the time Caylee drown, would determine who was truly responsible. If GA was still asleep, and KC was on the phone or computer, then KC was responsible. If KC asked GA to watch Caylee for a few while she showered, then GA was responsible. If this family is as dysfunctional as it sometimes seems to be, who could ever really know what happened that morning, even if GA or KC did a tell all interview, who could believe either of them? Not me.
    You do believe them, if you believe the unsubstantiated story presented by the defense team. Your premise is practically identical. Again, if you came up with this prior to the defense opening statement, I apologize. In the last three years of reading the document dumps (and remarkably not listening to talking heads), Caylee was kidnapped by a Zanny.

    <modsnip>.

    It doesn't. It can't. It is a story told by a very, erm, questionable story teller.

    It's not in the same league as three years worth of discovery, and defending it as if it was can be respected as a personal opinion, but not much else.

    As always, my entire post is my opinion only.
    My entire response to you is not so much my opinion, but an attempt to explain why "pro-verdict" posts appear to be in the minority. They don't hold water when the folks here put on their sleuther caps and test them against the evidence provided. I haven't read one that has, though I have adjusted my perspective as convincing stuff is presented
    Last edited by Salem; 08-02-2011 at 11:36 PM. Reason: attacking

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  41. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baznme View Post
    I just want to say that your post is both tactful and sensitive to either side, "guilty" or "not guilty" believers. While reading it, I realized there have been a lot of people that were "sitting on the fence" at one point, then believing she was "guilty", back and forth at least a few times. I know that I thought even before JB put out the opening remarks, maybe it was an accident, she got scared and proceeded on with her life seemingly as normal to keep the inevitable truth from coming out. But, then the DT came up with the extenuating circumstances (allegedly) and it threw my room for "doubt" out the window. All I'm saying is this really. No matter what I believe, I admit to have been one of those "sitting on the fence" people at more than point throughout the course of this case. So, rather than feeling as though I had to take a side in the end, no I did not. I chose to but, I think sometimes posters feel they have to choose the white hat or the black. Your post made me realize that I really do not know what happened in reality. I don't believe it is absolutely as JB put it but, maybe something in between. We may never know. It's just a shame that Caylee became secondary in importance. Seems the verdict did.
    very nice post baznme

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  43. #24
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by librazone
    There is one aspect concerning the jury of which I am certain and it is this...if I had young children I would never ever allow them to be around any of these jurors.
    Wow. That seems pretty harsh. Just because they didn't feel that the SA proved BARD that Casey was guilty of murdering Caylee, it means they are dangerous people and shouldn't be around children?
    Yeah that's kinda harsh but it seems more like hyperbole than anything.

    I didn't think the SA proved beyond reasonable doubt that Casey murdered Caylee in cold blood with chloroform and duct tape either. But they did prove Casey reacted with a "guilty conscience", as the baby's body was hidden, and then the "disappearance" lied about.

    They presented convincing testimony from two medical examiners, experts in reconstructing the circumstances of human death, that accidents are reported 100% of the time. OK, maybe 99.8% of the time. All things considered, this wasn't one of those 0.2%'s, not with the kind of evidence they had.

    OK . . . so that this jury MISSED this most obvious forest-for-the-trees moment, I too have to wonder if finding one's way out of a paper sack was an issue for certain folks.

    I won't go so far as to say I wouldn't trust them with a young child. I would say I wouldn't trust their judgment (as a group) with important moral decisions. Which one makes a lot of in the care of a child. They were given the responsibility to determine guilt, though. Not provide a healthy, safe day care environment. In that, they failed, and I doubt the day care would be very trustworthy come to think of it . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sustained View Post
    With all due respect ...

    Please help us out and publish these polls where it was said that it would take less than 3 hours of deliberation time. I'd really like to know who conducted the poll and who was polled.

    Please also tell us what those very bad, bad reasons might be as to why someone would not call 911 if Caylee was not murdered. Please also tell us why a loving grandfather and supposedly loving mother would dump their loved one in a swamp for animals to chew on. I'm sure you couldn't even imagine that happening to your 9-year-old granddaughter, could you ?

    Please continue and tell us why a woman would sit in jail for almost 3 years because of an accident. I know it's hard to believe that a loving mother would harm her child, but by all outside accounts, Darlie Routier was a loving mother as was Susan Smith as was Andrea Yates.
    Apparently after the verdict was read, all the polls changed from how long will deliberations take, to Was the Verdict Right or Wrong.

    As for the very, very bad reason, I'm going to answer that question with a question to you: If GA was sexually molesting KC the morning of the 16th, and Caylee slipped outside and drowned while that was going on, do you think GA would have called 911? Would GA answer honestly on the stand if he was guilty of molesting his daughter?

    No, I can't imagine my 9 year old granddaughter or any of my other grandchildren being dumped in a swamp.

    I can't imagine why anyone whose daughter had drowned, or who had murdered their daughter would "hide" the child in a swamp less than half a mile from their home, less than 20 feet from the road. That makes no sense whatsoever to me. Did Ga or KC or both wrap Caylee up in garbage bags like she was one of their pets? That defies common sense as well. Why risk making chloroform when NyQuil can put a two year old to sleep? Why wrap duct tape around a baby's mouth when you could put a half a dozen strong sedatives in her food or drink and easily kill her. Why drive around with a body in your trunk for 2 to 3 days? Why not call 911 if your baby drowned? Why run around town for a month acting like your baby is still alive, why not just leave town and say the baby was kidnapped in New York or Los Angeles? Why get a tattoo? If you murdered someone, why lay them in a wooded area just a hop skip and a jump from your house? Why murder your baby when your mother will watch her? How could anyone in their right mind do any one of these things, let alone all of them?

    As for why KC sat in jail for 3 years because of an accident, well, I don't think she had much of a choice. I think they offered her a plea deal contingent upon her admitting to murdering her daughter, and she would not take the plea deal because she would not admit to something she did not do. After turning down the plea deal because they were offering murder, and she was saying it was an accident, she had no choice but to sit and wait for her trial.

    As always, my entire post is my opinion only.
    The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.-- Gandhi

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