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Thread: NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #8

  1. #401
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    I don't think There has to be a formal coverup to stall a case, just LE relectance to go down certain roads. Regardless of whether someone with powerful connections was the cause of Maura's disappearance, I have always felt that this case was screwed up from the jump: out of state plates, a female driver when the car was registered to a man, the cracked windshield on the driver's side, night and winter conditions--all should have led to a call to the car owner once it was abandoned, since it was possible that the driver could have a concussion or closed head injury. The presence of alcohol might have been another factor that would have triggered some concern. Once the Murrays finally learned Maura was missing, the trail was cold. Then NH state police get focused on suicide, which is convenient because it renders the initial LE response moot: she was an outsider bent on killing herself. So the evidence points back to her home and family. Anyone who has spent time in a resort area knows that tourists generally do not generate the same level of attention from LE that local, tax-paying citizens do. And then Fred Murray didn't make any friends, for all of these reasons. So even if a killer was "connected," there are lots of other reasons why LE might choose not to go down some roads, especially if they believe (for whatever reason) it was suicide.

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  3. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittsburghgirl View Post
    I don't think There has to be a formal coverup to stall a case, just LE relectance to go down certain roads. Regardless of whether someone with powerful connections was the cause of Maura's disappearance, I have always felt that this case was screwed up from the jump: out of state plates, a female driver when the car was registered to a man, the cracked windshield on the driver's side, night and winter conditions--all should have led to a call to the car owner once it was abandoned, since it was possible that the driver could have a concussion or closed head injury. The presence of alcohol might have been another factor that would have triggered some concern. Once the Murrays finally learned Maura was missing, the trail was cold. Then NH state police get focused on suicide, which is convenient because it renders the initial LE response moot: she was an outsider bent on killing herself. So the evidence points back to her home and family. Anyone who has spent time in a resort area knows that tourists generally do not generate the same level of attention from LE that local, tax-paying citizens do. And then Fred Murray didn't make any friends, for all of these reasons. So even if a killer was "connected," there are lots of other reasons why LE might choose not to go down some roads, especially if they believe (for whatever reason) it was suicide.

    I would say there was no cover-up or any reluctance in pursuing evidence concerning this "Suspect" everyone is talking about.

    The A-Frame house on Valley Rd. was searched and the blood evidence the dogs hit upon turned out to come from a clothes hamper (menstral).

    So back to square one.

  4. #403
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    Really. Was the blood evidence verified? What's the source on that? Maybe I've just forgotten, but I can't recall the A-frame blood was resolved.

    And I was speaking in general, to the point that a coverup (deliberate and intended to protect someone) is not necessarily to derail an investigation. All it would take would be for one or two investigators to get tunnel vision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pittsburghgirl View Post
    Really. Was the blood evidence verified? What's the source on that? Maybe I've just forgotten, but I can't recall the A-frame blood was resolved.

    And I was speaking in general, to the point that a coverup (deliberate and intended to protect someone) is not necessarily to derail an investigation. All it would take would be for one or two investigators to get tunnel vision.
    I know you are answering Scoops, but I read it somewhere too. The theory is that there was probably a clothes hamper in that closet and some of the items ended up on the floor. Then problem is coming up with the source, because many of the old articles are not on the web anymore.

    I agree about the tunnel vision.
    Last edited by McSpy; 09-21-2011 at 07:04 PM.

  6. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittsburghgirl View Post
    I don't think There has to be a formal coverup to stall a case, just LE relectance to go down certain roads. Regardless of whether someone with powerful connections was the cause of Maura's disappearance, I have always felt that this case was screwed up from the jump: out of state plates, a female driver when the car was registered to a man, the cracked windshield on the driver's side, night and winter conditions--all should have led to a call to the car owner once it was abandoned, since it was possible that the driver could have a concussion or closed head injury. The presence of alcohol might have been another factor that would have triggered some concern. Once the Murrays finally learned Maura was missing, the trail was cold. Then NH state police get focused on suicide, which is convenient because it renders the initial LE response moot: she was an outsider bent on killing herself. So the evidence points back to her home and family. Anyone who has spent time in a resort area knows that tourists generally do not generate the same level of attention from LE that local, tax-paying citizens do. And then Fred Murray didn't make any friends, for all of these reasons. So even if a killer was "connected," there are lots of other reasons why LE might choose not to go down some roads, especially if they believe (for whatever reason) it was suicide.
    That brings up another theory - I think it was mentioned when volunteer PI's were on the case, but I could be wrong - anyway, the theory is that MM's accident really took place further east, on property under Federal jurisdiction, and it was there that she was abducted by a man and woman.
    The female of this duo then moved the car west into Haverhill so that it would be under Haverhill's small PD jurisdiction and as such they would do just what they did with the limited resources they have.
    BA saw this woman before she was picked up by her male accomplice. This is why BA first mentioned he did not think the woman in the car was MM....
    Okay, before you blast this theory, I just posted it as an example to show that there were so many theories, we shouldn't be surprised by anything now mentioned, and this theory is on a par IMO with the notion of a perp who had powerful connections....

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  8. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoops View Post
    I would say there was no cover-up or any reluctance in pursuing evidence concerning this "Suspect" everyone is talking about.

    The A-Frame house on Valley Rd. was searched and the blood evidence the dogs hit upon turned out to come from a clothes hamper (menstral).

    So back to square one.
    That is one of those things that was completely and unintentionally mangled in the public. The blood was, to the best of my knowledge (and I believe it says this in the SoCo article) never tested. It is THEORIZED that this blood could have POSSIBLY been from another source, such as menstrual blood from a clothes hamper.

    BUT THAT IS NOT ACTUALLY A FACT. There have been attempts to clear this up, but for some reason they've failed. The truth of the matter on that particular bit of info is that NO TEST RESULTS HAVE BEEN RELEASED. I don't even know if tests have been performed.

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  10. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
    That brings up another theory - I think it was mentioned when volunteer PI's were on the case, but I could be wrong - anyway, the theory is that MM's accident really took place further east, on property under Federal jurisdiction, and it was there that she was abducted by a man and woman.
    The female of this duo then moved the car west into Haverhill so that it would be under Haverhill's small PD jurisdiction and as such they would do just what they did with the limited resources they have.
    BA saw this woman before she was picked up by her male accomplice. This is why BA first mentioned he did not think the woman in the car was MM....
    Okay, before you blast this theory, I just posted it as an example to show that there were so many theories, we shouldn't be surprised by anything now mentioned, and this theory is on a par IMO with the notion of a perp who had powerful connections....
    I'd be the last person to blast this theory, as I have spent time on a couple of Maura Murray boards in which there was considerable discussion of professional opinions that the damage to the Saturn was not consistent with the Haverhill scene, and of course the eyewitness testimony about the person at the car are all over the place. I have, myself, wondered if it was Maura at that scene and would love to see the footage from the ATM to see if her hair was down. The witnesses said the hair of the woman at the scene had her hair down. If her hair was up in the ATM picture, I'd bet a week's pay that the woman at the scene wasn't Maura, because women will put their hair up or in a ponytail as a day or event or trip progresses but not usually the other way around. Surely LE has seen the ATM picture, but the rest of us have not. So I have my own little theory for people to blast.

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    Failed Attempts

    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Birch View Post
    That is one of those things that was completely and unintentionally mangled in the public. The blood was, to the best of my knowledge (and I believe it says this in the SoCo article) never tested. It is THEORIZED that this blood could have POSSIBLY been from another source, such as menstrual blood from a clothes hamper.

    BUT THAT IS NOT ACTUALLY A FACT. There have been attempts to clear this up, but for some reason they've failed. The truth of the matter on that particular bit of info is that NO TEST RESULTS HAVE BEEN RELEASED. I don't even know if tests have been performed.
    BBM

    Jane Birch, what attempts have been made and by whom? Have you any idea why "they've failed"?

    All your posts on this thread sound very knowledgable (sp?), and I really appreciate the information you share. Thank you!

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  14. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Birch View Post
    That is one of those things that was completely and unintentionally mangled in the public. The blood was, to the best of my knowledge (and I believe it says this in the SoCo article) never tested. It is THEORIZED that this blood could have POSSIBLY been from another source, such as menstrual blood from a clothes hamper.

    BUT THAT IS NOT ACTUALLY A FACT. There have been attempts to clear this up, but for some reason they've failed. The truth of the matter on that particular bit of info is that NO TEST RESULTS HAVE BEEN RELEASED. I don't even know if tests have been performed.
    That's what I recalled, as well. I wonder how the story got so screwed up.

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  16. #410
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    I think you should email Renner and suggest he makes attempts to see the ATM picture to see if her hair is down. Maybe he can actually do it?

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  18. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittsburghgirl View Post
    I'd be the last person to blast this theory, as I have spent time on a couple of Maura Murray boards in which there was considerable discussion of professional opinions that the damage to the Saturn was not consistent with the Haverhill scene, and of course the eyewitness testimony about the person at the car are all over the place. I have, myself, wondered if it was Maura at that scene and would love to see the footage from the ATM to see if her hair was down. The witnesses said the hair of the woman at the scene had her hair down. If her hair was up in the ATM picture, I'd bet a week's pay that the woman at the scene wasn't Maura, because women will put their hair up or in a ponytail as a day or event or trip progresses but not usually the other way around. Surely LE has seen the ATM picture, but the rest of us have not. So I have my own little theory for people to blast.
    I'm not so sure. A ponytail or a bun can be annoying, because of the headrests on the car seats. It feels like a lump in back of your head. I can see her taking it out, while on her long drive up to NH.

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  20. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
    That brings up another theory - I think it was mentioned when volunteer PI's were on the case, but I could be wrong - anyway, the theory is that MM's accident really took place further east, on property under Federal jurisdiction, and it was there that she was abducted by a man and woman.
    The female of this duo then moved the car west into Haverhill so that it would be under Haverhill's small PD jurisdiction and as such they would do just what they did with the limited resources they have.
    BA saw this woman before she was picked up by her male accomplice. This is why BA first mentioned he did not think the woman in the car was MM....
    Okay, before you blast this theory, I just posted it as an example to show that there were so many theories, we shouldn't be surprised by anything now mentioned, and this theory is on a par IMO with the notion of a perp who had powerful connections....
    I agree. Only LE knows, or just the PI feels all the evidence seems to point to a particular individual. If Maura was a victim of homicide, to an outsider like me, it seems to point to RF, but I don't have all the facts. I only have the knowledge of what has been publicized. I can only speculate--like everyone else. Imaginations have run rampant.

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  22. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by McSpy View Post
    I'm not so sure. A ponytail or a bun can be annoying, because of the headrests on the car seats. It feels like a lump in back of your head. I can see her taking it out, while on her long drive up to NH.
    I do this pretty regularly, myself.

    As for Renner getting to see the ATM video, that's one of the things that her family hasn't even seen. Which strikes me as pretty peculiar in and of itself.

    How has the A-frame blood story tried to be corrected? By people like me, posting repeatedly that it's not fact any time it's brought up. As you can see, it's worked real well lol.....

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  24. #414
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    I always dreaded "pony-tail" marks if I put it down again--back in the days when I had long hair. I don't use the head rests in my car; they are there to keep my head from snapping off if there is a whiplash incident....I have always thought long hair was an irritant and liked having it out of the way. But if Maura started out with it down, then for me it increases the odds that the person at the scene was Maura.

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  26. #415
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    Here is what I found in the mainstream accounts about the A-frame. First, Maribeth Conway, in Part IV of the "Maura is Missing" series. She starts out by observing that Fred Murray took the opportunity to get permission to search the house once it went up for sale--so this was not a LE search, from the beginning.
    On the first day, a cadaver dog searched the house and had hits on the second level; the next day four more cadaver dogs were put to work in the house and went "bonkers," Fred said. The strongest hits by the dogs were in a downstairs closet. Cadaver dogs are skilled in sniffing for decomposing bodies but are not able to distinguish the identities of bodies. 


    Though a dead body could have been stored in this closet, the dogs were not capable of identifying if the body was Maura.



    The investigators took a few trash bags filled with items from the house and a piece of carpet from the closet. According to Fred, the carpet was to be divided into two pieces: a portion of the carpet was to be given to state police, who were not present for the search, and the other portion was to be held by the group of volunteer investigators. A medical laboratory examination was to determine if stains on the carpet were blood, and if available DNA matched Maura's. Seven months later, laboratory test results have not been made available from either group.



    There is confusion over who has custody of the carpet. Private Investigator Healy was ill the weekend of the search, but said that police were not at all interested in the evidence and would not take the carpet into their possession. Healy said the carpet is in the custody of an investigator who no longer "has business relations" with the group.
    http://southshorexpress.com/extras/s...aftermath.html

    The SOCO article also covers this aspect of the search, but sites Fred as the source of information that the carpet samples were never tested for DNA.

    Murray recalls that carpet samples were taken from the house and were supposed to be tested for DNA. The samples were never tested, he said, and the leader of the private investigative group didn’t tell the state police about the samples until two and a half years later
    Clearly, there have been no briefing from LE to the media or the general public about these carpet samples (as to DNA, blood type, or source of the blood stain). It is indisputable that dogs hit on a scent, and Conway says they were "cadaver dogs," which are NOT looking for blood (menstrual or any other kind) but as anyone who watched the Casey Anthony trial can tell you, are trained to hit on the scent of human decomposition. The purpose of testing supposed blood stains in the closet was to see if Maura's DNA was present, which would have linked her to the A-frame, and presumably to its occupants.

    http://www.mauramurraymissing.com/

    Now, we don't know what is going on with the carpet samples. Healy says the state police wouldn't take them, which makes a kind of sense since they weren't evidence collected officially. If they are still out there somewhere, presumably they could be tested for DNA, still, if anyone knows where they are. What no one knows is what kind of blood, if any, or whose DNA, is on the carpet samples. There were supposedly two samples. One should be with the "volunteer investigators," and the other was to go to state police, who reportedly refused to take the sample. So where is it? And if all of this is in private hands, surely it could have been tested. But NONE of this confirms the rumors noted above that the blood (on a carpet, in the closet) was from a clothes hamper (which is a simply ludicrous story).
    Last edited by pittsburghgirl; 09-22-2011 at 06:46 PM. Reason: to add and clarify

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  28. #416
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    Regarding your post above
    Quote Originally Posted by pittsburghgirl View Post
    Here is what I found in the mainstream accounts about the A-frame....
    Thanks for clarifying all of this!
    Sounds like things got botched up, sadly, and nothing was ever tested. What a shame.

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    I thank Jane Birch for helping me remember that the A-frame blood is not a settled issue.

    Now, I just went back to our May discussion (much of which I had missed) in order to see if anyone talked about the second SOCO article. I am very intrigued about their theory that a second person was present at the accident.

    When I try to link, I get a picture of the cover art and that makes me nervous that I am violating TOS, so you can google SOCO Maura Murray May 2011; the article is on pages 11 and 12.

    Maybe someone will figure out how to link this without putting up the magazine cover art.

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  31. #418
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    Hunh. This is the first time I've seen that follow-up. Thanks for alerting me to it.

    Aaaaannnnnnd, even that has some inaccuracies. You'll notice it has Maura packing up her dorm room, getting the upsetting phone call that resulted in her having to be escorted to her room, and heading to the ATM, buying liquor, and heading north to Haverhill ALL ON THE SAME DAY, Monday Feb 9.

    This is of course incorrect, as she received the upsetting phone call at her security post THURSDAY NIGHT INTO FRIDAY MORNING. (and the knowledge of when she packed up her room, or whether it was just not unpacked, etc etc etc are still being debated)

    Oh! Speaking of which, something I've always felt about that. People think it's awfully weird that Maura was hanging out in her own dorm, on a different floor, having some drinks with friends, and then suddenly she was all, "I'm gonna go see my dad." Leaving aside the likelihood that she and her dad were going running together in the morning, as they almost always did when they were together, if her room were still more or less packed, as I believe is possible, this makes a bit more sense.

    Let's say she's still more or less packed from winter break. There's piles of crap and boxes on her bed from unpacking she'd been doing earlier that day, maybe. Who the hell wants to go upstairs and deal with all that crap? (Right now there's a pile of clean clothes on my bed in the next room, and the thought of having to put those away before I go to sleep makes me want to cry lol) Who knows--she could have just thought about the mess that her dorm room currently was and thought, "Screw it, I have to meet dad first thing in the morning anyway, and if I go now I can sleep later and I don't have to move all that stuff."

    Just a thought?

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  33. #419
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    That makes sense. I never knew they usually ran together. Funny how that point never makes it into discussions of Maura's motives. And speaking as a runner, I don't know many parents and kids who run together, so I would say that this fact suggests a very healthy and close relationship between father and daughter--and absolutely makes me doubt even more than I already do the notion that Maura would be committing suicide or that she was running away from her family.

    The conflation of events into one day in this SOCO followup is echoed by the way the Wikipedia entry on Maura slides all sorts of events into a coherent narrative without regard to their ambiguity or their lack of cause-and-effect or chronological relationship.

    Still, the notion that she was meeting someone or traveling with someone or someone she knew about was following in another vehicle answers many of my questions: why all the alcohol? why was she so adamant that she didn't need help? where did she go? This SOCO piece states, directly, that there are people who aren't telling what they know. I wonder who the writers and editors think these people are and what they thing these people know? I get tired of all the "hints" without attribution or citation or even evidence.

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  35. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Birch View Post
    That is one of those things that was completely and unintentionally mangled in the public. The blood was, to the best of my knowledge (and I believe it says this in the SoCo article) never tested. It is THEORIZED that this blood could have POSSIBLY been from another source, such as menstrual blood from a clothes hamper.

    BUT THAT IS NOT ACTUALLY A FACT. There have been attempts to clear this up, but for some reason they've failed. The truth of the matter on that particular bit of info is that NO TEST RESULTS HAVE BEEN RELEASED. I don't even know if tests have been performed.
    I have to stand corrected. I thought I had read the clothes hamper bit from an actual news article (but apparently it came from an old message board instead <modsnip>.

    <modsnip>
    Last edited by bessie; 09-23-2011 at 11:00 PM. Reason: copy and pasted post from another site and discussion of the posts/posters

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    Quote Originally Posted by pittsburghgirl View Post
    why was she so adamant that she didn't need help?
    I don't think we know that she was "so adamant." IIRC, the only source for her being adamant, or for saying she didn't need help, for saying she was calling AAA, etc. etc. was the SBD; another witness, the PI, claims the SBD told different stories at different times.

    At this point, I don't think we have reliable info about what MM said, or how she acted, or whether her hair was up or down, or whether she was inside the car or out, etc. etc. at the time the SBD came by.

    Frustrating!
    "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you." -- Nietzsche

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  38. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoops View Post
    I have to stand corrected. I thought I had read the clothes hamper bit from an actual news article (but apparently it came from an old message board <modsnip>
    I'm sorry, what?



    Quote Originally Posted by scoops View Post
    <Modsnip>

    Now, Weeper as I understand it was an investigator who claims to have been there the day they searched the A-frame house. So if that is true and it is pointed out that he (Frank Kelly) is supporting this shack lady's post, then wouldn't that be kind of like splitting hairs here. Yes, technically its not fact, but it is all but fact if you are to believe weeper and shack and firecat. Shack states it as fact, weeper (who was there duirng the search) doesn't vehemently discredit shack (since its not fact and all) and firecat is the whole reason we are talking about damn carpet in a meaningless A-Frame house for pointing all this nonsense out.
    Yeah, that's not my reading of this. Isn't Weeper saying what I'm saying, that it might have been menstrual blood? How are you getting "all but fact" out of this if it hasn't bee ntested? Firecat seems to try to be confirming that it's actually not fact? if I'm reading that right.
    Last edited by bessie; 09-23-2011 at 10:56 PM. Reason: snipped copy and pasted post from quote

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    Sorry about whatever formatting error decided to happen there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scoops View Post
    I have to stand corrected. I thought I had read the clothes hamper bit from an actual news article (but apparently it came from an old message board instead...

    <Modsnip>
    <Modsnip>

    The bottom line is that there were cadaver dogs who "hit" on something at the A-frame; that something that looked like blood was on a carpet; that carpet samples were taken but evidently not analyzed, so far as we know; and that an alternative explanation for the blood was offered (alternative to it being from Maura or some other victim). So the A-frame and its occupants are at another dead end in this case.
    Last edited by bessie; 09-23-2011 at 10:55 PM. Reason: reference to snipped portion of quote

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  42. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Birch View Post
    Firecat seems to try to be confirming that it's actually not fact? if I'm reading that right.
    And if I'm reading it right, Firecat is on one hand confirming that it's actually not fact, but on the other hand is confirming that the investigator agrees/ qualifies with the person that said the blood was found to be menstraul.

    It can't be both ways.

    If the carpet samples have NEVER been tested, then the investigator would've said that the first person (shack) is flat wrong. They could in no way make a claim about the blood being menstraul, because there were no testing done. But instead the investigator goes on to qualify shacks comments and even brings up the example of the clothes hamper.
    Last edited by bessie; 09-24-2011 at 01:25 AM. Reason: fixed broken quote

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