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Thread: NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by scoops View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Birch View Post
    Firecat seems to try to be confirming that it's actually not fact? if I'm reading that right.


    And if I'm reading it right, Firecat is on one hand confirming that it's actually not fact, but on the other hand is confirming that the investigator agrees/ qualifies with the person that said the blood was found to be menstraul.

    It can't be both ways.

    If the carpet samples have NEVER been tested, then the investigator would've said that the first person (shack) is flat wrong. They could in no way make a claim about the blood being menstraul, because there were no testing done. But instead the investigator goes on to qualify shacks comments and even brings up the example of the clothes hamper.
    Ok, then you and I are having a complete and total disagreement (which is fine, obvs!) because my read on it is, if the stuff hasn't been tested, how can the investigator say that someone is flat wrong? S/he doesn't know this other person is flat wrong, because.....it hasn't been conclusively prooved one way or the other.

    If, on the other hand, nothing's been tested, then.....by all means, speculate away. You, me, the investigator, your uncle tony, whoever. Such as "yeah we got blood samples, but they may not mean anything. They may not be Maura. They could be somebody's old menstrual blood from the cloths hamper for all we know."

    Wow. Sorry, my tpiyng apparently sucks today!

    ETA: I can't get the quotes to come up as quotes, so the part I've quoted I edtied to put in italics. Hope that makes it clear, since for whatever reason the nesting quote function isn't working.
    Last edited by bessie; 09-24-2011 at 01:25 AM. Reason: fixed broken quote

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  3. #427
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    snipped to what I'm commenting on:
    Quote Originally Posted by pittsburghgirl View Post
    Now, I just went back to our May discussion (much of which I had missed) in order to see if anyone talked about the second SOCO article. I am very intrigued about their theory that a second person was present at the accident.
    .
    Didn't know there was a second SOCO article - thanks for mentioning!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Birch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoops View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Birch View Post
    Firecat seems to try to be confirming that it's actually not fact? if I'm reading that right.


    And if I'm reading it right, Firecat is on one hand confirming that it's actually not fact, but on the other hand is confirming that the investigator agrees/ qualifies with the person that said the blood was found to be menstraul.

    It can't be both ways.

    If the carpet samples have NEVER been tested, then the investigator would've said that the first person (shack) is flat wrong. They could in no way make a claim about the blood being menstraul, because there were no testing done. But instead the investigator goes on to qualify shacks comments and even brings up the example of the clothes hamper.
    Ok, then you and I are having a complete and total disagreement (which is fine, obvs!) because my read on it is, if the stuff hasn't been tested, how can the investigator say that someone is flat wrong? S/he doesn't know this other person is flat wrong, because.....it hasn't been conclusively prooved one way or the other.If, on the other hand, nothing's been tested, then.....by all means, speculate away. You, me, the investigator, your uncle tony, whoever. Such as "yeah we got blood samples, but they may not mean anything. They may not be Maura. They could be somebody's old menstrual blood from the cloths hamper for all we know."

    Wow. Sorry, my tpiyng apparently sucks today!

    ETA: I can't get the quotes to come up as quotes, so the part I've quoted I edtied to put in italics. Hope that makes it clear, since for whatever reason the nesting quote function isn't working.
    The investigator can say the person is "flat wrong" because no testing had been done The investigator would know one way or the other about testing and results. There can be no end result either way (menstrual blood, Maura's blood, a monkey's blood) without there ever being a test done and the information released. So for anyone to claim that it came back menstrual blood would be flat wrong (unless they were on the inside of this case).
    Last edited by bessie; 09-24-2011 at 01:25 AM. Reason: fixed broken quote

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    Something about the A-frame blood thing confuses me.

    I know a little bit - not much, but a little bit - about training cadaver dogs, and I know that they are cross-trained not to hit on anything other than a decomposing human body. Are we sure they were cadaver dogs that were used or some other type of scent dogs? Because a cadaver dog shouldn't hit on menstrual blood or any other kind of blood, as far as I understand it.

    That leads me to believe that either it was a different type of scent dog that was used or that the menstrual-blood-in-the-hamper explanation is BS.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong if anyone on here is a professional cadaver dog handler.

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    @goldiegirl, that's my understanding of it too--that cadaver dogs are trained to hit on (without getting too graphic) other particular.....stuff....rather than just blood.

    @scoops--I see what you are saying, but I sitll think it's a matter of semantics and I disagree. Whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Birch View Post
    @goldiegirl, that's my understanding of it too--that cadaver dogs are trained to hit on (without getting too graphic) other particular.....stuff....rather than just blood.

    @scoops--I see what you are saying, but I sitll think it's a matter of semantics and I disagree. Whatever.
    I hear you ... But then we can say that Butch Atwood (not offically being a cop, but working as a special officer for the police is kind of like semantics as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Birch View Post
    @goldiegirl, that's my understanding of it too--that cadaver dogs are trained to hit on (without getting too graphic) other particular.....stuff....rather than just blood.

    @scoops--I see what you are saying, but I sitll think it's a matter of semantics and I disagree. Whatever.
    Right. I actually became confused during the Casey Anthony trial, because a cadaver dog handler testified that the dogs were cross-trained against hitting on rotting meat, animals, etc. and were trained with either a rag that had been placed in the chest cavity of a cadaver or on placenta. The placenta made me wonder whether or not they might also alert on menstrual blood. With this case in mind, I asked a handler of both narcotics and explosives detection dogs (but NOT cadaver dogs, for the record) whether or not the placenta training might cause them to hit on menstrual blood, and her response was that no, placenta is an organ and is different from menstrual blood. That's why I'm confused and am wondering if the menstrual blood explanation was created as a coverup or something.

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    Scoops, I'm not going to get into an argument with you, but this is exactly why people need to be clear. Butch Atwood saying he worked for the police resulted in it being reported erroneously that he was a cop. The whole thing about the blood in the A-frame resulted in people being confused and disagreeing even to this day.

    See my point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Birch View Post
    Scoops, I'm not going to get into an argument with you, but this is exactly why people need to be clear. Butch Atwood saying he worked for the police resulted in it being reported erroneously that he was a cop. The whole thing about the blood in the A-frame resulted in people being confused and disagreeing even to this day.

    See my point?
    I think the point I am seeing is that investigators that get on message boards and produce wild theories out of their behind (clothes hamper menstrual blood) need to actually get off their behinds and get something REAL accomplished instead of coming up with all of these hollywood-type storylines (like somene posing as maura and staging that wreck on Rt. 112).

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldiegirl View Post
    Right. I actually became confused during the Casey Anthony trial, because a cadaver dog handler testified that the dogs were cross-trained against hitting on rotting meat, animals, etc. and were trained with either a rag that had been placed in the chest cavity of a cadaver or on placenta. The placenta made me wonder whether or not they might also alert on menstrual blood. With this case in mind, I asked a handler of both narcotics and explosives detection dogs (but NOT cadaver dogs, for the record) whether or not the placenta training might cause them to hit on menstrual blood, and her response was that no, placenta is an organ and is different from menstrual blood. That's why I'm confused and am wondering if the menstrual blood explanation was created as a coverup or something.
    Don't think so. Think it was just people mis-hearing, mis-speaking, mis-understanding, and all around confusion. Though of course anything's possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldiegirl View Post
    Something about the A-frame blood thing confuses me.

    I know a little bit - not much, but a little bit - about training cadaver dogs, and I know that they are cross-trained not to hit on anything other than a decomposing human body. Are we sure they were cadaver dogs that were used or some other type of scent dogs? Because a cadaver dog shouldn't hit on menstrual blood or any other kind of blood, as far as I understand it.

    That leads me to believe that either it was a different type of scent dog that was used or that the menstrual-blood-in-the-hamper explanation is BS.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong if anyone on here is a professional cadaver dog handler.
    The Whitman-Hanson article by Conway says "cadaver" dogs. I have never seen that corrected in print; the only other dogs I am aware of a tracking dogs and search-and-rescue dogs, who look for live people. We of course have no idea who the handlers are or how well-trained the dogs are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scoops View Post
    I think the point I am seeing is that investigators that get on message boards and produce wild theories out of their behind (clothes hamper menstrual blood) need to actually get off their behinds and get something REAL accomplished instead of coming up with all of these hollywood-type storylines (like somene posing as maura and staging that wreck on Rt. 112).
    I cannot speak as to what anyone says on message boards, but some PIs involved in this case have spoken in the mainstream media, and those are the statements I look at. Even so, I am always aware that reporters and their subjects at times miscommunicate, as well. That is why "sleuthing" via the internet is so hard and why WS requires us to source and cite, which is what makes this board worthwhile.

    I don't think it is impossible that the wreck was staged...there has been a lot of work done by PIs to examine the Saturn because the damage is inconsistent with the police report (that she hit trees) and the conditions at the site where the car was found. Moreover, eyewitness testimony, especially identifications, are notoriously inaccurate. Only the SBD saw Maura close enough to make an ID. One of the other witnesses saw a man in the car. It's why I always wanted to know about the ATM surveillance photo (or of the liquor store had cameras). Think about the Jennifer Kesse case...someone (not Jennifer) had her car and then dropped it off...we know that from surveillance photos. In the puzzling Mc Stay case, their vehicle was found days after they left their house for the last time, but no one is sure who left the car there or why. It is a reasonable question to wonder if it was Maura or some other femalethere, especially if the car damage doesn't add up in light of what she hit or supposedly hit. It might be worth looking at old Maura boards to recover that argument, those debates, and the lines of thinking of people who reconstructed the accident because we KNOW in some cases that cars of missing victims have been left in places that create mystery. If Maura was taken, say, in a fast-food parking lot or some place other than where her car was found, this case would look very different than it does with a victim who apparently vanished on a road yards away from a wrecked vehicle (and who may justifiably be considered as someone who was running away, suicidal, or something other than a homicide victim.)
    Last edited by pittsburghgirl; 09-25-2011 at 04:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pittsburghgirl View Post
    I cannot speak as to what anyone says on message boards, but some PIs involved in this case have spoken in the mainstream media, and those are the statements I look at. Even so, I am always aware that reporters and their subjects at times miscommunicate, as well. That is why "sleuthing" via the internet is so hard and why WS requires us to source and cite, which is what makes this board worthwhile.

    I don't think it is impossible that the wreck was staged...there has been a lot of work done by PIs to examine the Saturn because the damage is inconsistent with the police report (that she hit trees) and the conditions at the site where the car was found. Moreover, eyewitness testimony, especially identifications, are notoriously inaccurate. Only the SBD saw Maura close enough to make an ID. One of the other witnesses saw a man in the car. It's why I always wanted to know about the ATM surveillance photo (or of the liquor store had cameras). Think about the Jennifer Kesse case...someone (not Jennifer) had her car and then dropped it off...we know that from surveillance photos. In the puzzling Mc Stay case, their vehicle was found days after they left their house for the last time, but no one is sure who left the car there or why. It is a reasonable question to wonder if it was Maura or some other femalethere, especially if the car damage doesn't add up in light of what she hit or supposedly hit. It might be worth looking at old Maura boards to recover that argument, those debates, and the lines of thinking of people who reconstructed the accident because we KNOW in some cases that cars of missing victims have been left in places that create mystery. If Maura was taken, say, in a fast-food parking lot or some place other than where her car was found, this case would look very different than it does with a victim who apparently vanished on a road yards away from a wrecked vehicle (and who may justifiably be considered as someone who was running away, suicidal, or something other than a homicide victim.)
    I don't think anyone ever specifically said there was a man in the car. Someone thought they saw someone light a cigarette, but it also could have been the red light from Maura's cell phone. Also, did anyone ever think that maybe Maura wrecked her car twice? Maybe she hit a tree along the way or something else.

    I would love to know how long after Maura wrecked that BA got to the scene? The Co2 from the air bag makes if very difficult to see inside a car for a few good minutes. Maura would have def had to get out of the car quickly as it would have been hard to see and breath for a while. Wonder if BA happened to see this smoke in her car?

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    If I remember correctly from the articles and such that I have read; Maura's Dad was furious because they did submit carpet samples from the A-Frame house to LE and they never bothered to test it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittsburghgirl View Post
    I cannot speak as to what anyone says on message boards, but some PIs involved in this case have spoken in the mainstream media, and those are the statements I look at. Even so, I am always aware that reporters and their subjects at times miscommunicate, as well. That is why "sleuthing" via the internet is so hard and why WS requires us to source and cite, which is what makes this board worthwhile.

    I don't think it is impossible that the wreck was staged...there has been a lot of work done by PIs to examine the Saturn because the damage is inconsistent with the police report (that she hit trees) and the conditions at the site where the car was found. Moreover, eyewitness testimony, especially identifications, are notoriously inaccurate. Only the SBD saw Maura close enough to make an ID. One of the other witnesses saw a man in the car. It's why I always wanted to know about the ATM surveillance photo (or of the liquor store had cameras). Think about the Jennifer Kesse case...someone (not Jennifer) had her car and then dropped it off...we know that from surveillance photos. In the puzzling Mc Stay case, their vehicle was found days after they left their house for the last time, but no one is sure who left the car there or why. It is a reasonable question to wonder if it was Maura or some other femalethere, especially if the car damage doesn't add up in light of what she hit or supposedly hit. It might be worth looking at old Maura boards to recover that argument, those debates, and the lines of thinking of people who reconstructed the accident because we KNOW in some cases that cars of missing victims have been left in places that create mystery. If Maura was taken, say, in a fast-food parking lot or some place other than where her car was found, this case would look very different than it does with a victim who apparently vanished on a road yards away from a wrecked vehicle (and who may justifiably be considered as someone who was running away, suicidal, or something other than a homicide victim.)
    Well said, and well written!!
    I thought it strange that Butch first said he did not believe the woman he saw was Maura. But seeing a person in real life and comparing it to a picture can account for that, especially with her hair in a different style.

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    Quote Originally Posted by telemag View Post
    I don't think anyone ever specifically said there was a man in the car. Someone thought they saw someone light a cigarette, but it also could have been the red light from Maura's cell phone. Also, did anyone ever think that maybe Maura wrecked her car twice? Maybe she hit a tree along the way or something else.

    I would love to know how long after Maura wrecked that BA got to the scene? The Co2 from the air bag makes if very difficult to see inside a car for a few good minutes. Maura would have def had to get out of the car quickly as it would have been hard to see and breath for a while. Wonder if BA happened to see this smoke in her car?
    One of the witnesses who called about the wrecked car, Faith Westman, sais she saw a man sitting in the car and smoking a cigarette. According to the "Maura is Missing" series, Part 2,
    that information is in the LE call log. Lots of speculation about that, over the years.

    I think the times in the call logs would be pretty indicative of the time of the accident. We live on a winding road that leads out of suburbs onto a major state 4-lane. Cars wreck in front of
    our house all the time, and we call right away because we are concerned about a wrecked car
    being a hazard to other people who are driving too fast on our road. There were 2 calls made about the Saturn, and one was made by Butch, so he would have seen her shortly before that.
    I'd find those call logs (they are somewhere) but I am on the iPad and the Steelers are
    playing...

    And oldsteve, the fact that Butch wasn't sure, and Faith Westman thought she saw a man AND there were some oddities in the accident report (the alcohol-involved checkoff, that trees were involved, etc.) have fueled questions about Maura not being alone (see the May 2011 SOCO
    update), or the accident being staged (by Maura and an accomplice, by a bad guy and his accomplice--to stage a disappearance or to cover-up a previous accident related to a kidnapping, etc.)

    It may be that LE has better witness statements than we have, given that we are going on the
    call logs.

    ETA: James Renner has the call logs on his blog. (Thanks, Mr. Renner; it's nice to have them handy. Stuff like this tends to get lost.). See p. 4 for Faith Westman's call and the narrative about seeing a man in the car with a cigarette.
    Last edited by pittsburghgirl; 09-25-2011 at 09:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gaia227 View Post
    If I remember correctly from the articles and such that I have read; Maura's Dad was furious because they did submit carpet samples from the A-Frame house to LE and they never bothered to test it.
    Hi, gaia, good to hear from you. What I linked above indicates that they weren't tested but that there's confusion about the samples and their fate. There may be better sources...

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    Quote Originally Posted by pittsburghgirl View Post
    I cannot speak as to what anyone says on message boards, but some PIs involved in this case have spoken in the mainstream media, and those are the statements I look at. Even so, I am always aware that reporters and their subjects at times miscommunicate, as well. That is why "sleuthing" via the internet is so hard and why WS requires us to source and cite, which is what makes this board worthwhile.

    I don't think it is impossible that the wreck was staged...there has been a lot of work done by PIs to examine the Saturn because the damage is inconsistent with the police report (that she hit trees) and the conditions at the site where the car was found. Moreover, eyewitness testimony, especially identifications, are notoriously inaccurate. Only the SBD saw Maura close enough to make an ID. One of the other witnesses saw a man in the car. It's why I always wanted to know about the ATM surveillance photo (or of the liquor store had cameras). Think about the Jennifer Kesse case...someone (not Jennifer) had her car and then dropped it off...we know that from surveillance photos. In the puzzling Mc Stay case, their vehicle was found days after they left their house for the last time, but no one is sure who left the car there or why. It is a reasonable question to wonder if it was Maura or some other femalethere, especially if the car damage doesn't add up in light of what she hit or supposedly hit. It might be worth looking at old Maura boards to recover that argument, those debates, and the lines of thinking of people who reconstructed the accident because we KNOW in some cases that cars of missing victims
    have been left in places that create mystery. If Maura was taken, say, in a fast-food parking lot or some place other than where her car was found, this case would look very different than it does with a victim who apparently vanished on a road yards away from a wrecked vehicle (and who may justifiably be considered as someone who was running away, suicidal, or something other than a homicide victim.)
    Maybe, I'm exhausted by this case, but I think her disappearance is much simpler. I think it was her in the car on Rt. 112 with her AAA card. It just rings true to me. Butch Atwood didn't commit his interaction with Maura to memory and lets not forget, it was very dark that evening. He didn't know she was going to end up missing. He didn't have a crystal ball and he didn't memorize her face. I think what happened to her, happened after that accident. This is just my opinion and I know I could be wrong, but I'm just going with my gut here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pittsburghgirl View Post
    One of the witnesses who called about the wrecked car, Faith Westman, sais she saw a man sitting in the car and smoking a cigarette. According to the "Maura is Missing" series, Part 2,
    that information is in the LE call log. Lots of speculation about that, over the years.

    I think the times in the call logs would be pretty indicative of the time of the accident. We live on a winding road that leads out of suburbs onto a major state 4-lane. Cars wreck in front of
    our house all the time, and we call right away because we are concerned about a wrecked car
    being a hazard to other people who are driving too fast on our road. There were 2 calls made about the Saturn, and one was made by Butch, so he would have seen her shortly before that.
    I'd find those call logs (they are somewhere) but I am on the iPad and the Steelers are
    playing...

    And oldsteve, the fact that Butch wasn't sure, and Faith Westman thought she saw a man AND there were some oddities in the accident report (the alcohol-involved checkoff, that trees were involved, etc.) have fueled questions about Maura not being alone (see the May 2011 SOCO
    update), or the accident being staged (by Maura and an accomplice, by a bad guy and his accomplice--to stage a disappearance or to cover-up a previous accident related to a kidnapping, etc.)

    It may be that LE has better witness statements than we have, given that we are going on the
    call logs.

    ETA: James Renner has the call logs on his blog. (Thanks, Mr. Renner; it's nice to have them handy. Stuff like this tends to get lost.). See p. 4 for Faith Westman's call and the narrative about seeing a man in the car with a cigarette.
    Here is the most recent quote from the witness Faith Westman concerning what she saw. this came from James Renner's blog and she clearly notes she did not see a man that night.

    Faith Westman -- "I heard a crash and then I went to the window. I saw the car. There was a red light in the car, which I thought might be the light from the end of a cigarette," says Westman. "But I never saw a man and the red light could have been anything. Maybe a cell phone light as she was trying to find a signal to call someone."

    Keep in mind there was another witness who was technically closer to Maura named John Marotte. Here is what he said (also from james blog)

    John Marotte --- "I saw her get out and walk around the car. When I looked out again, the police were there. She was gone. I don't know what happened. Only man who knows is up there." he points to the sky.

    Also about Butch Atwood, be sure we are clear, did he really publically state that he didn't think it was maura that night or is this just being inferred.

    From the Maribeth Conway series of articles done --- "According to Atwood, who apparently spoke with Maura that evening, Maura had her hair down. Interestingly, Atwood later told a family member that Maura did not look like the pictures running in newspapers. Atwood clarified in our interview that the woman he spoke with did look like the pictures on the Missing Person signs, though it is worth noting that he and Maura remained 15 to 20 feet apart throughout their entire conversation and their encounter was past dusk."

    Off-handidly mentioning something to a family member is a lot different than going public with something.

    Finally, one of the theories (by investigators) is that this particular couple (that lived in the A-Frame house) were responsible for Maura going missing and they are the ones who staged this accident at rt 112 and the person butch atwood stumbled upon that night was the women (that lived in the A-frame house) posing as maura as she backed her car up into its final resting place at the accident scene. ... One big issue with this though. The couple is likely in their 50's right now or just below. It would be very hard to portray a 20, 21, 22 year old girl.

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    Two thoughts:

    1) If the accident was staged, does that mean someone was riding around with a deployed airbag and fractured windshield, bring the car to the place where it was abandoned? Seems very doubtful.

    2) Wonder if there is any evidence in the car today that someone was smoking a cigarette in it when the red light was seen. (MM was a runner, probably not a smoker). Does this model car have a red dashboard indicator light that might have been reflected on window glass?
    "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you." -- Nietzsche

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    1) If the accident was staged, does that mean someone was riding around with a deployed airbag and fractured windshield, bring the car to the place where it was abandoned? Seems very doubtful.
    Very good point Gnomony.


    Also is it just me or is anyone else disturbed by the level of apathy of the "eyewitnesses"? Fred Murray must be livid when he reads things such as this...

    "I saw her get out and walk around the car. When I looked out again, the police were there. She was gone. I don't know what happened. Only man who knows is up there." he points to the sky.
    "I saw HER get out" "SHE was gone" Why not go check on "her" instead of just looking out the window. "When I looked out again". His statement seems to come across as a little lazy. Forgive me though if this man is elderly and was unable to go check on her. Maybe I am out of line here.
    The point I am trying to make is that this eyewitness clearly knew it was a female in the accident by his use of "her and she". Most men I know would have walked down to see if she was ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gnomony View Post
    Two thoughts:

    1) If the accident was staged, does that mean someone was riding around with a deployed airbag and fractured windshield, bring the car to the place where it was abandoned? Seems very doubtful.

    2) Wonder if there is any evidence in the car today that someone was smoking a cigarette in it when the red light was seen. (MM was a runner, probably not a smoker). Does this model car have a red dashboard indicator light that might have been reflected on window glass?
    BBM

    Regarding airbag - On that model car it automatically deflates seconds after it is deployed.

    Incidentally - the fact the it does deflate so rapidly, brought up much discussion on the old boards when the SBD mentioned he saw MM peering over the inflated airbag - the question being if he saw that, he had to see her only seconds after her crash!

  43. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnomony View Post
    Two thoughts:

    1) If the accident was staged, does that mean someone was riding around with a deployed airbag and fractured windshield, bring the car to the place where it was abandoned? Seems very doubtful.

    2) Wonder if there is any evidence in the car today that someone was smoking a cigarette in it when the red light was seen. (MM was a runner, probably not a smoker). Does this model car have a red dashboard indicator light that might have been reflected on window glass?
    Man, oh, man, gnomony, you are smarter than you look! Your #1 paragraph is spot on and it made me laugh! It is a very good point! Why not just leave the car in a lot somewhere, if one wants to confuse police on what happened to Maura? Crashing into a tree doesn't make sense. JMO

  44. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by McSpy View Post
    Man, oh, man, gnomony, you are smarter than you look!
    I resemble that remark!
    "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you." -- Nietzsche

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