Page 19 of 50 FirstFirst ... 91011121314151617181920212223242526272829 ... LastLast
Results 451 to 475 of 1228

Thread: NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #8

  1. #451
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Where I hang my hat.
    Posts
    8,022
    Quote Originally Posted by flightlevel View Post
    Very good point Gnomony.


    Also is it just me or is anyone else disturbed by the level of apathy of the "eyewitnesses"? Fred Murray must be livid when he reads things such as this...



    "I saw HER get out" "SHE was gone" Why not go check on "her" instead of just looking out the window. "When I looked out again". His statement seems to come across as a little lazy. Forgive me though if this man is elderly and was unable to go check on her. Maybe I am out of line here.
    The point I am trying to make is that this eyewitness clearly knew it was a female in the accident by his use of "her and she". Most men I know would have walked down to see if she was ok.
    In fairness to the witnesses, they probably saw Atwood stop the bus after the accident and saw him conversing with her. Most of them called the police too. I believe the man you quoted was elderly. It was a winter night, so maybe he didn't want to venture out (ice). If Maura came to their door, maybe they would have helped.

  2. #452
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    -Metro NYC
    Posts
    3,705
    Here a question -
    anyone have a timeline that shows when LE radio call(s) went out in relation to the time MM was last seen, to when she was no longer seen?
    Trying to determine if she was taken either before or after the calls went out.

  3. #453
    I'm trying to remember because it's been a long time and things get fuzzy, but can you restart a car once the airbag is deployed? It seems to me that at least some makes/models would not start with the key once the bag was deployed-I was in an accident in which the airbag deployed and I think the tow truck driver told me this. Like I said, it was a long time ago, and I don't know if this was or is the case will all cars. But if it was true of Maura's car, it makes the staged accident/moving the car theory less plausible to me. Generally, a person's last action before exiting a car is to turn off the engine. It's almost a reflex; a friend of mine was recently in an accident and not only did she do this, but she took the keys and locked the door out of habit. Even if someone did something to cause her to crash, it's highly likely that she'd have turned the car off when it stopped. That would, if the airbag/ignition thing is true, mean that the car would not have been able to be driven back to the accident scene.

    Once again, I don't remember for sure because so much time has passed, but I'm putting it out there that driving the car to a staged scene after a real crash might not have been possible.

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to HeartOfGranite For This Useful Post:


  5. #454
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    766
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
    Here a question -
    anyone have a timeline that shows when LE radio call(s) went out in relation to the time MM was last seen, to when she was no longer seen?
    Trying to determine if she was taken either before or after the calls went out.
    At 7:27 p.m. is when the first call concerning Maura came into dispatch by Faith Westman. We are only left to speculate how long before the actual wreck took place, but it would seem likely that it would be no more than 1-5 minutes before Faith called.

    Timeline according to the 911 dispatch log which slightly differs from the police report, but I feel to be more accurate because they breakdown the times by minutes and seconds (are likely going right in line with radio calls in to their dispatch center) and I would assume are quite accustomed to having accurate and detailed times with their logs.

    Staying in time-line order
    1. Westman call comes in to haverhill dispatch at 7:27
    2. Officer Cecil Smith notified at 7:29:31 --- Smith en route at 7:29:36
    3. Atwood's notify different 911 dispatch at (approx 7:40 p.m.) This dispatch notifies proper 911 dispatch for haverhill at 7:43 p.m.
    4. Ambulance notified at 7:42:30 ------ Ambulance en route at 7:45:34
    5. Fire Dept. notified at 7:42:30 ------- Pumper en route at 7:45:05
    6. Officer Cecil Smith arrives on scene at 7:46:20
    7. BOL issued from Officer Cecil Smith to all fire units for a female about 5-foot-7 on foot 7:54:00
    8. Ambulance arrives on scene at 7:56:08
    9. Fire Dept. Pumper arrives on scene at 7:57:12

    10. (search for Maura is done, don't have a time-line for this)
    11. Ambulance clears scene and departs at 8:02:13
    12. Fire Dept. Pumper clears scene and departs at 8:49:07 (am assuming they stayed longer to help search from what investigators have said)
    13. Lavoies Auto Care Center tows car away (not sure on specific time but could be 8:50 p.m. that is when dispatch notes that the scene is cleared and car is towed away)
    14. Officer Cecil Smith clears scene and departs at 9:26:16 (am assuming he went and talked to neighbors and that explains why he left almost 40 minutes after scene was cleared).

  6. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to scoops For This Useful Post:


  7. #455
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Pittsburgh (of course)
    Posts
    2,354
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
    Here a question -
    anyone have a timeline that shows when LE radio call(s) went out in relation to the time MM was last seen, to when she was no longer seen?
    Trying to determine if she was taken either before or after the calls went out.
    The log (posted on Renner's blog) has all the police call and response times. I think there are also timelines out there that have been put together based on the log and eyewitness statements to LE. scoops's summary corresponds to what I have seen before, but there may be other docs that can fill in what is meant by "search for Maura."

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to pittsburghgirl For This Useful Post:


  9. #456
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Pittsburgh (of course)
    Posts
    2,354
    Quote Originally Posted by scoops View Post
    Here is the most recent quote from the witness Faith Westman concerning what she saw. this came from James Renner's blog and she clearly notes she did not see a man that night.

    Faith Westman -- "I heard a crash and then I went to the window. I saw the car. There was a red light in the car, which I thought might be the light from the end of a cigarette," says Westman. "But I never saw a man and the red light could have been anything. Maybe a cell phone light as she was trying to find a signal to call someone."


    Westman's statement is a textbook example of the problems with eyewitness testimony. There are at least 5 possibilities here, taking the call log narrative and the statement above together. This smart bunch can probably think of even more:
    • Westman told the dispatcher that she saw a man smoking a cigarette and that statement was correctly recorded and that is what she thought she saw at the time. However, she mistook Maura for a man.
    • Westman told the dispatcher something other than what was recorded and the dispatcher made a mistake or misunderstood.
    • Westman told the dispatcher that she saw a man smoking a cigarette, but saw something herself after the call that changed her mind and so she says she "didn't see a man" although that was her first impression.
    • Westman told the dispatcher that she saw a man smoking a cigarette, but her memory changed, not as a result of first-hand "witnessing"--perhaps as a result of learning that Atwood saw a woman, or that a woman was presumably driving the car or that there was only one person in the car and it had to be a woman, etc. This is a very common phenomena in human memory, that we come to "remember" what we think we were supposed to see. The brain is a very efficient pattern-making tool, and we effectively can "change" what we remember by unconsciously going back and correcting first impressions as we get new information.
    • Westman actually did see a man in the car, and that is why she reported that to the dispatcher.
    I don't see how we can just blow past the call log because an eyewitness claims she didn't say what she, most likely, told the dispatcher she saw at the scene. We can't know for sure that the dispatcher didn't make a mistake, but "can see a man in vehicle smoking a cigarette" is a pretty specific statement. The re-considered position above sounds like someone who things she is wrong trying to account for what she saw. I have no idea whether she was correct then, or correct now, but her "testimony" only serves to muddy the water. The new SOCO article, which argues there were two people in the car when it wrecked, may in part be considering Westman's original statement. (See below).

    I agree with those of you who question the "common-sense" of the idea that someone would relocate a wrecked vehicle with deployed airbag and a cracked windshield in order to stage an accident. McSpy said,

    Maybe, I'm exhausted by this case, but I think her disappearance is much simpler. I think it was her in the car on Rt. 112 with her AAA card. It just rings true to me. Butch Atwood didn't commit his interaction with Maura to memory and lets not forget, it was very dark that evening. He didn't know she was going to end up missing. He didn't have a crystal ball and he didn't memorize her face. I think what happened to her, happened after that accident. This is just my opinion and I know I could be wrong, but I'm just going with my gut here.
    This makes sense to me, too. Neither Atwood nor Westman had any idea that they would be asked to replay these moments for years and comment on them endlessly. That is another reason why eyewitness testimony is so unreliable: People don't remember things accurately even when they know they will be tested, and what happens afterwards can alter, change or taint the memory. How many times are we "sure" we put the keys on the table or paid the electric bill or got a meeting time right? But someone staging an accident would have to be a very detailed "stager" to put that AAA card there...
    Last edited by pittsburghgirl; 09-27-2011 at 01:55 PM.

  10. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to pittsburghgirl For This Useful Post:


  11. #457
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Pittsburgh (of course)
    Posts
    2,354
    OK, here is something that drives me insane as a reader, a WSer, and a teacher. The May 11, 2011 SOCO article says this:

    We found a piece of information on the web but can't be sure exactly where it came from. It appears that a woman across the street from where the accident occurred noticed what looked like another person in the car--and she also believed she saw what looked like a cigarette tip shining in the dark night from inside the vehicle.
    First, this writer builds an entire hypothesis from material even though he or she "can't be sure exactly where it came from." The writer identifies that hypothesis as "speculation," but certainly gives inordinate weight to "information" picked up from the web (some board or blog, no doubt). Now that unidentified, unsourced information has a new luster to it, having been printed in a "traditional" magazine, pictures and all. And careless readers will pick up what that magazine says as "fact" and it will be on more boards and blogs, now with a new status.

    We can recognize the basic outlines of the call log narrative, in which the 911 dispatcher is recording, presumably, what Westman said. How easy would it have been for the "reporter" to source and cite? Jiminy crickets, the mods here expect that of us. This is a print magazine. Then, note the shift: "what looked like another person in the car." This seems to imply that the source (whom we know to be Westman) said there was "another" person, not just one person. Our discussion above indicates that the call log refers to "a man," but it certainly never refers to more than one person. Now, if Westman did see a man, and Atwood a woman, we would indeed have two people; however, no one has ever said he or she saw two distinct people at the scene.

    This sloppy research and leaping to a conclusion (what a witness describes as a man at the scene turns into "another person") is what causes so many problems in this case. In this case, this writer weaves that other person into a narrative in which Maura was traveling with someone, who put the rag in the tailpipe to stall the car and hid in the woods. That explains (so this story goes) why Maura didn't want LE at the scene and why she left (to join up with the phantom "other person"). As in many loopy conspiracy theories, the writer doesn't explain why a predator would need to stage a wreck in front of a bunch of houses and potential witnesses, in order to abduct and murder Maura, when he's already got her in a car and can just kill her somewhere in private and dump the car.

    The article is worth a read, but it makes me more skeptical than I was of the first SOCO piece (which ran in April 2011.)

    The new article can be accessed by googling issuu soco May 2011.
    Last edited by pittsburghgirl; 09-27-2011 at 02:00 PM.

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to pittsburghgirl For This Useful Post:


  13. #458
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    -Metro NYC
    Posts
    3,705
    Quote Originally Posted by scoops View Post
    At 7:27 p.m. is when the first call concerning Maura came into dispatch by Faith Westman. We are only left to speculate how long before the actual wreck took place, but it would seem likely that it would be no more than 1-5 minutes before Faith called.

    Timeline according to the 911 dispatch log which slightly differs from the police report, but I feel to be more accurate because they breakdown the times by minutes and seconds (are likely going right in line with radio calls in to their dispatch center) and I would assume are quite accustomed to having accurate and detailed times with their logs.

    Staying in time-line order
    1. Westman call comes in to haverhill dispatch at 7:27
    2. Officer Cecil Smith notified at 7:29:31 --- Smith en route at 7:29:36
    3. Atwood's notify different 911 dispatch at (approx 7:40 p.m.) This dispatch notifies proper 911 dispatch for haverhill at 7:43 p.m.
    4. Ambulance notified at 7:42:30 ------ Ambulance en route at 7:45:34
    5. Fire Dept. notified at 7:42:30 ------- Pumper en route at 7:45:05
    6. Officer Cecil Smith arrives on scene at 7:46:20
    7. BOL issued from Officer Cecil Smith to all fire units for a female about 5-foot-7 on foot 7:54:00
    8. Ambulance arrives on scene at 7:56:08
    9. Fire Dept. Pumper arrives on scene at 7:57:12

    10. (search for Maura is done, don't have a time-line for this)
    11. Ambulance clears scene and departs at 8:02:13
    12. Fire Dept. Pumper clears scene and departs at 8:49:07 (am assuming they stayed longer to help search from what investigators have said)
    13. Lavoies Auto Care Center tows car away (not sure on specific time but could be 8:50 p.m. that is when dispatch notes that the scene is cleared and car is towed away)
    14. Officer Cecil Smith clears scene and departs at 9:26:16 (am assuming he went and talked to neighbors and that explains why he left almost 40 minutes after scene was cleared).

    Thanks for this scoops!

    I was trying to place the statement by John Marotte --- "I saw her get out and walk around the car. When I looked out again, the police were there. She was gone. I don't know what happened. Only man who knows is up there." into that timeline.

    Correct me if I'm wrong:
    7:22 Accident happens say 5 min one minute before FW calls
    7:29:31Officer Cecil Smith notified.
    (approx 7:40 p.m.) Atwood's notify different 911 dispatch at
    7:46:20 Officer Cecil Smith arrives on scene

    Does this tell us anything? I assuming Officer Smith was notified by radio, so that means someone listening to LE calls
    had approx 17 minutes to hear the call and grab MM.
    Last edited by OldSteve; 09-27-2011 at 04:16 PM.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to OldSteve For This Useful Post:


  15. #459
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    766
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
    Thanks for this scoops!

    I was trying to place the statement by John Marotte --- "I saw her get out and walk around the car. When I looked out again, the police were there. She was gone. I don't know what happened. Only man who knows is up there." into that timeline.

    Correct me if I'm wrong:
    7:22 Accident happens say 5 min one minute before FW calls
    7:29:31Officer Cecil Smith notified.
    (approx 7:40 p.m.) Atwood's notify different 911 dispatch at
    7:46:20 Officer Cecil Smith arrives on scene

    Does this tell us anything? I assuming Officer Smith was notified by radio, so that means someone listening to LE calls
    had approx 17 minutes to hear the call and grab MM.
    I would agree that there is about a 17 minute window between the first alert sent out to officer Cecil Smith and his arrival. But in that 17 minutes, Butch Atwood would've stumbled up upon the accident scene (guestimating around 7:30 or 7:32) stayed for three minutes, then headed to his house. Neighbors that include the Westman's (across the street from accident and John Mayotte (directly above the wreck on same side of the road) that would've been looking out their windows as well).

    It would've taken a houdini like abduction for someone to sneak in during that short window of time, not cause a commotion or be spotted by the witnessess looking out their windows and not be spooked off by the sounds of sirens heading that way. Plus if they had heard this over a scanner, then they would already know that police and fire personnel were on their way and that they would have very little time to execute an abduction.

  16. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to scoops For This Useful Post:


  17. #460
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    766
    Quote Originally Posted by scoops View Post
    I would agree that there is about a 17 minute window between the first alert sent out to officer Cecil Smith and his arrival. But in that 17 minutes, Butch Atwood would've stumbled up upon the accident scene (guestimating around 7:30 or 7:32) stayed for three minutes, then headed to his house. Neighbors that include the Westman's (across the street from accident and John Mayotte (directly above the wreck on same side of the road) that would've been looking out their windows as well).

    It would've taken a houdini like abduction for someone to sneak in during that short window of time, not cause a commotion or be spotted by the witnessess looking out their windows and not be spooked off by the sounds of sirens heading that way. Plus if they had heard this over a scanner, then they would already know that police and fire personnel were on their way and that they would have very little time to execute an abduction.
    Also to add to that, while this area is considered very remote, the specific site of the accident is not that remote. With the weathered Barn store (owned by the westman's) that has a big street light out in front of it and the school bus driver's house which had yet another big street light by the road, plus the westman's house and the Mayottes house with their lights on. I know If I were looking to abduct someone or even ruse someone into my car, that would not be the place I would want to do it (I would be way too afraid of having my car or license plate spotted). I would have been spooked off and then you have the police that (You would know already would be on their way). Way too risky and most criminals are opportunists, This particular area is not very opportune at that time of the night and in this circumstance.

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to scoops For This Useful Post:


  19. #461
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    -Metro NYC
    Posts
    3,705
    Thanks scoops! Lots of good points - especially about the sound of sirens and knowing LE was on their way.
    I like your, "it would've taken a houdini like abduction for someone to sneak in during that short window of time"
    Got me thinking, with all the commotion of approach LE, Fire Trucks...what would MM do assuming she wanted to avoid all of this....
    I always thought as a runner there was no way I would run East toward the forest and over roads I hadn't been previous on that night, but now I don't know. Would there be enough light to do it? Would I run East a bit and try to duck into the woods.... I would figure that LE might travel east and see where I made a break into the woods because there was new snow around... but just running East, they could spot me as well...

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to OldSteve For This Useful Post:


  21. #462
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    766
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
    Thanks scoops! Lots of good points - especially about the sound of sirens and knowing LE was on their way.
    I like your, "it would've taken a houdini like abduction for someone to sneak in during that short window of time"
    Got me thinking, with all the commotion of approach LE, Fire Trucks...what would MM do assuming she wanted to avoid all of this....
    I always thought as a runner there was no way I would run East toward the forest and over roads I hadn't been previous on that night, but now I don't know. Would there be enough light to do it? Would I run East a bit and try to duck into the woods.... I would figure that LE might travel east and see where I made a break into the woods because there was new snow around... but just running East, they could spot me as well...
    There is a field that is in between the Westman's house and the school bus driver's and from the point of Maura's wreck, she would've likely been right in line with that field. A tree-line would possibly block the view of the Westman's if Maura were to head into this field. That would be a good place to at least head for initially(because it is complete darkness). Beyond the field is a stream and I don't know what that would be like to try and cross in February with snow on the ground.

    Here is a picture of said field.

    [ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/65640533@N07/6190341425/in/photostream"]IMG_9839 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!@@AMEPARAM@@http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6027/6190341425_6cdb607fc9_m.jpg@@AMEPARAM@@6190341425@ @AMEPARAM@@6cdb607fc9[/ame]

    I am standing where I believe Maura's car ended up the night she went missing and looking directly across the street. This isn't the best picture, but it was the only one I took of the field. Obviously, a lot of info points to her not going into this field (no known footprints provided it was looked at and the tracking dogs picking up her scent going east) but I had always been curious about this little field that separates the houses of the Westmans and the Atwoods.
    Last edited by scoops; 09-27-2011 at 09:45 PM.

  22. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to scoops For This Useful Post:


  23. #463
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    -Metro NYC
    Posts
    3,705
    Quote Originally Posted by scoops View Post
    There is a field that is in between the Westman's house and the school bus driver's and from the point of Maura's wreck, she would've likely been right in line with that field. A tree-line would possibly block the view of the Westman's if Maura were to head into this field. That would be a good place to at least head for initially(because it is complete darkness). Beyond the field is a stream and I don't know what that would be like to try and cross in February with snow on the ground.
    I trying to remember if you captured that field and stream in the photos you took when you were there.... IIRC you did... trying to search for links... let me try this:

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7165250&postcount=462"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #8[/ame]

    ETA: oops - I see you got it and posted in you post just above this one - thanks!

  24. #464
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    766
    hoping this link works, but this should take you right to the area of the accident.


    [ame="http://maps.google.com/maps?q=bath,+NH&hl=en&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=39.916234,84.375&vpsrc=0&t=m&ie=UTF 8&hq=&hnear=Bath,+Grafton,+New+Hampshire&layer=c&c bll=44.120261,-71.935338&panoid=1olBeqVDQquUrl11OAzuVg&cbp=12,133 .33,,0,4.65&ll=44.120261,-71.935338&spn=0.000015,0.0103&z=17"]bath, NH - Google Maps[/ame]


    IF you go to this link and see this house ( Not 100 percent sure who lived in this house at time Maura went missing but it would've technically been the closest house to her wreck on same side of road) spinning to the left of this house you will be staring right down Rt. 112 as it goes east and across the street you can see the house that the Atwoods lived in

    Spinning to the right of this house and you have the westwardly direction that includes the weathered barn, the Westman's house and the tree in which fred put the ribbon on although maura's car ended up further east down the road kind of close to the house.
    Last edited by scoops; 09-27-2011 at 11:33 PM.

  25. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to scoops For This Useful Post:


  26. #465
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    766
    Just a minor update ... FWIW

    I just got off the phone with the New Hampshire Senior Assistant Attorney General Jeff Strelzin concerning the partial human skull found in the Littleton horse cemetery and he believes they are now finishing up testing and estimated that in a few weeks or less there will be a press release on the matter.

  27. The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to scoops For This Useful Post:


  28. #466
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Where I hang my hat.
    Posts
    8,022
    Quote Originally Posted by pittsburghgirl View Post
    OK, here is something that drives me insane as a reader, a WSer, and a teacher. The May 11, 2011 SOCO article says this:



    First, this writer builds an entire hypothesis from material even though he or she "can't be sure exactly where it came from." The writer identifies that hypothesis as "speculation," but certainly gives inordinate weight to "information" picked up from the web (some board or blog, no doubt). Now that unidentified, unsourced information has a new luster to it, having been printed in a "traditional" magazine, pictures and all. And careless readers will pick up what that magazine says as "fact" and it will be on more boards and blogs, now with a new status.

    We can recognize the basic outlines of the call log narrative, in which the 911
    dispatcher is recording, presumably, what Westman said. How easy would it have been for the "reporter" to source and cite? Jiminy crickets, the mods here expect that of us. This is a print magazine. Then, note the shift: "what looked like another person in the car." This seems to imply that the source (whom we know to be Westman) said there was "another" person, not just one person. Our discussion above indicates that the call log refers to "a man," but it certainly never refers to more than one person. Now, if Westman did see a man, and Atwood a woman, we would indeed have two people; however, no one has ever said he or she saw two distinct people at the scene.

    This sloppy research and leaping to a conclusion (what a witness describes as a man at the scene turns into "another person") is what causes so many problems in this case. In this case, this writer weaves that other person into a narrative in which Maura was traveling with someone, who put the rag in the tailpipe to stall the car and hid in the woods. That explains (so this story goes) why Maura didn't want LE at the scene and why she left (to join up with the phantom "other person"). As in many loopy conspiracy theories, the writer doesn't explain why a predator would need to stage a wreck in front of a bunch of houses and potential witnesses, in order to abduct and murder Maura, when he's already got her in a car and can just kill her somewhere in private and dump the car.


    The article is worth a read, but it makes me more skeptical than I was of the first SOCO piece (which ran in April 2011.)

    The new article can be accessed by googling issuu soco May 2011.
    I didn't like the SOCO article either. I found it very sloppy with the known facts. I don't think the writer did a very good investigation of this case at all.

  29. The Following User Says Thank You to McSpy For This Useful Post:


  30. #467
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Where I hang my hat.
    Posts
    8,022
    Quote Originally Posted by scoops View Post
    Also to add to that, while this area is considered very remote, the specific site of the accident is not that remote. With the weathered Barn store (owned by the westman's) that has a big street light out in front of it and the school bus driver's house which had yet another big street light by the road, plus the westman's house and the Mayottes house with their lights on. I know If I were looking to abduct someone or even ruse someone into my car, that would not be the place I would want to do it (I would be way too afraid of having my car or license plate spotted). I would have been spooked off and then you have the police that (You would know already would be on their way). Way too risky and most criminals are opportunists, This particular area is not very opportune at that time of the night and in this circumstance.
    I agree, in my opinion, if she was abducted, it was down the road somewhere.

  31. The Following User Says Thank You to McSpy For This Useful Post:


  32. #468
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Where I hang my hat.
    Posts
    8,022
    If Maura ran, I wonder if her feet became uncomfortably cold eventually. There was never any mention on what she usually wore for shoes.

  33. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to McSpy For This Useful Post:


  34. #469
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    -Metro NYC
    Posts
    3,705
    Quote Originally Posted by McSpy View Post
    If Maura ran, I wonder if her feet became uncomfortably cold eventually. There was never any mention on what she usually wore for shoes.
    Interesting point - I never remember my feet feeling cold while running some cold nights in the upper twenties.... running kept circulation going and flexing of feet generated heat... As mentioned can't see someone running at night after snow fall on a road. A side walk is better, light color, and less stones, also using a flashlight... No sidewalks where MM was, wonder if she had any sort of light...
    A problem running in the cold is actually when you stop - all sweaty your body heat flows out, clothing damp from sweat is bad too.
    So running or fast jogging for miles and then ducking into a snowy field spells hypothermia. Alcohol in your system doesn't help either.

  35. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to OldSteve For This Useful Post:


  36. #470
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    111
    Quote Originally Posted by McSpy View Post
    If Maura ran, I wonder if her feet became uncomfortably cold eventually. There was never any mention on what she usually wore for shoes.
    She is believed to have been wearing a pair of those (for lack of a better term) bowling shoes that were popular at the time. Not very warm at all, with not a whole lot of traction and very little (if any) weather protection from snow etc.

  37. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Jane Birch For This Useful Post:


  38. #471
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    -Metro NYC
    Posts
    3,705
    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Birch View Post
    She is believed to have been wearing a pair of those (for lack of a better term) bowling shoes that were popular at the time. Not very warm at all, with not a whole lot of traction and very little (if any) weather protection from snow etc.
    Googled women's bowling shoes... some have treads, remind me a bit of the classic leather Rebok running shoes wife and I used
    http://www.reebok.com/US/product?mod...ing-_-Shopping
    As you can see not for warmth, but you don't feel cold when you are running... when you stop, that's a different story.

    ETA if any runners see this, before you say something about this shoe not having this-or-that support, we like them, they worked for our feet...

  39. The Following User Says Thank You to OldSteve For This Useful Post:


  40. #472
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Pittsburgh (of course)
    Posts
    2,354
    As a long-time year-round runner, I never had problems with real running shoes and proper socks. If Maura was wearing bowling-type shoes, they would be very poor on bad roads, and even on dry pavement. Running shoes are made to absorb shock and support the midfoot, to allow for proper heal strike and alignment. Roads are bad to run on even in good weather because they are "crowned" for drainage, which means unless the runner is running dead in the center of the road, he or she is running lopsided, which causes chronomalacia patella, commonly known as runner's knee, and no doubt other structural problems of the foot, ankle, knee and hip.

    Maura might well have had even bigger problems; if she had any alcohol, she would have been subject to its depressant qualities, lowered heart-rate, slower cognition, body temperature and blood pressure changes, all of which might have made her prone to hypothermia, especially if she did run for a while and found she had to stop and walk. It is very hard to run when under the influence (although old-time marathoners have done it...), but under the influence, at night, on unfamiliar roads in snow conditions, in the cold, and with a possible head injury (something did hit the windshield)--not a recipe for safe running.

  41. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to pittsburghgirl For This Useful Post:


  42. #473
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    111
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
    Googled women's bowling shoes... some have treads, remind me a bit of the classic leather Rebok running shoes wife and I used
    http://www.reebok.com/US/product?mod...ing-_-Shopping
    As you can see not for warmth, but you don't feel cold when you are running... when you stop, that's a different story.

    ETA if any runners see this, before you say something about this shoe not having this-or-that support, we like them, they worked for our feet...
    These are not at all the kind of shoes I meant. Sorry...I'll try to find a picture of something similar to the shoes she was wearing in teh next day or so.

    And as long as her feet stayed dry and she was running, she would probably not have felt cold, even in her feet, but it can and does still happen, and if she was walking at times too, her feet may well have been pretty chilly, especially if they were wet.

    As I said, I'll look for pictures of the kind of shoe she had on. Not at all like those classic Reeboks.

  43. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Jane Birch For This Useful Post:


  44. #474
    belimom's Avatar
    belimom is offline Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter ~MLK Jr
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    10,534
    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Birch View Post
    She is believed to have been wearing a pair of those (for lack of a better term) bowling shoes that were popular at the time. Not very warm at all, with not a whole lot of traction and very little (if any) weather protection from snow etc.
    I remember those types of shoes. I googled and this is the closest I could find to what I'm thinking of - more of a casual/athletic/fashion shoe ("bowling shoe" style) than an actual bowling shoe. Is this close (ignore the multicolor)?



    http://www.soleredemption.com/pics/2...z-redsky-1.jpg
    Fly high and free, Jhessye ~

    My posts are meant to help think through possibilities and are strictly an additional opinion under circumstances when many points of view need to be considered. I apologize in advance to anyone whose potential involvement is contemplated in error. Please understand that much of what is happening is merely brainstorming during unfortunate events.

  45. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to belimom For This Useful Post:


  46. #475
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    32
    These are more accurate, except they didn't have the white stripes.

    http://www.bowling.com/products/disc...right-hand.htm

  47. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to I Care For This Useful Post:


Page 19 of 50 FirstFirst ... 91011121314151617181920212223242526272829 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #9
    By SheWhoMustNotBeNamed in forum 2000's Missing
    Replies: 1132
    Last Post: 02-09-2014, 10:37 PM
  2. NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #7
    By Cubby in forum 2000's Missing
    Replies: 861
    Last Post: 08-02-2011, 08:34 PM
  3. NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #6
    By Peabody in forum 2000's Missing
    Replies: 541
    Last Post: 01-14-2011, 12:53 PM
  4. NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #2
    By CW in forum 2000's Missing
    Replies: 276
    Last Post: 01-23-2006, 01:23 AM
  5. NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #1
    By Timex in forum 2000's Missing
    Replies: 244
    Last Post: 07-22-2005, 01:20 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •