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Thread: NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #8

  1. #626
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    Trying to word this so it makes sense.... after her crash, she may have become so fed-up with things that she simply didn't want having to deal with things right then and there.
    She was not necessarily thinking she wanted to end her life, but simply wanted to run/hide, escape having to thinking about her problems an so she drink and fell fatefully asleep somewhere down the road - accidental death..
    Speaking of mysteries - billions of humans past and present; so how did I windup conscious, self-aware looking out from inside this one? Did the prize-patrol show up at my birth?

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  3. #627
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    I think she was drunk...after crashing she wanted to die so she stuck the tail pipe rag and
    got interrupted by people wanting to help her.

    I think she wandered off...they should see if anyone remembers seeing any old Baileys bottles laying around...

    I think she's in the woods somewhere... I think some people can unconsciously kill themselves..Alchohol...car fumes ...Tylenol PM...exposure...

    they need to scour the area with dogs, My guess is she is within a 3 mile radius.

    IMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by minazoe View Post
    I think she was drunk...after crashing she wanted to die so she stuck the tail pipe rag and
    got interrupted by people wanting to help her.

    I think she wandered off...they should see if anyone remembers seeing any old Baileys bottles laying around...

    I think she's in the woods somewhere... I think some people can unconsciously kill themselves..Alchohol...car fumes ...Tylenol PM...exposure...

    they need to scour the area with dogs, My guess is she is within a 3 mile radius.

    IMO
    I think the rag was in her tailpipe before she left Amherst. I could be wrong, but I think her car "running on 3 cylinders" (running lousy) was actually the rag stuck up into her tailpipe. I don't think she knew it was there. My theory could be wrong if new facts come in. I'd like to know who said her car was only running on 3 cylinders. Was it a mechanic, who studied the car (actual diagnostic tests--not guess) or was it someone's educated guess from seeing or hearing about the car's performance? This is my opinon--not fact.

    I do think she could have had an accident, but I don't think she was drunk. She could have become disoriented by the pitch black darkness, got lost, fell, hit by a car, or succumbed to the cold. Yes, an accident was possible.

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  6. #629
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    Scoops come back! You always have something interesting to add. I hope my post didn't offend you. When I wrote it I wasn't even referring to your thoughts or theories. I was just thinking that if she were going to commit suicide mixing drinks would be a tiresome choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McSpy View Post
    I think the rag was in her tailpipe before she left Amherst. I could be wrong, but I think her car "running on 3 cylinders" (running lousy) was actually the rag stuck up into her tailpipe. I don't think she knew it was there. My theory could be wrong if new facts come in. I'd like to know who said her car was only running on 3 cylinders. Was it a mechanic, who studied the car (actual diagnostic tests--not guess) or was it someone's educated guess from seeing or hearing about the car's performance? This is my opinon--not fact.

    I do think she could have had an accident, but I don't think she was drunk. She could have become disoriented by the pitch black darkness, got lost, fell, hit by a car, or succumbed to the cold. Yes, an accident was possible.

    Interesting idea. Who do you think put the rag up there? I guess there's really no way to know. Maybe it was someone from school pulling some kind of prank, or maybe it was someone she didn't even know. But what throws me off is Fred stating that he'd told her that it was a good thing to do (I can't remember why) and that it was the rag from her emergency kit. That's the part I just can't seem to fit in with anything else about the rag. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts, taking Fred's statement into consideration.

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  10. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by flightlevel View Post
    Scoops come back! You always have something interesting to add. I hope my post didn't offend you. When I wrote it I wasn't even referring to your thoughts or theories. I was just thinking that if she were going to commit suicide mixing drinks would be a tiresome choice.
    Yes, Scoops please remain! Speaking of Scoops - still no word about the human remains found in the horse cemetery... though that could be a very slow process.

    I agree with you flightlevel that mixing drinks in the forest would be strange. But I also think that while she may not have planned to do that from the onset, anything is possible after her last crash...
    Speaking of mysteries - billions of humans past and present; so how did I windup conscious, self-aware looking out from inside this one? Did the prize-patrol show up at my birth?

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  12. #632
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    did someone put the rag in the pipe to keep her from taking off...how is putting a rag a good thing? I don't see this as normal in anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldiegirl View Post
    Interesting idea. Who do you think put the rag up there? I guess there's really no way to know. Maybe it was someone from school pulling some kind of prank, or maybe it was someone she didn't even know. But what throws me off is Fred stating that he'd told her that it was a good thing to do (I can't remember why) and that it was the rag from her emergency kit. That's the part I just can't seem to fit in with anything else about the rag. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts, taking Fred's statement into consideration.
    I'm wondering if he even saw the rag. Did they keep it after they discovered it to show Fred? I'm wondering if he assumed it was from the emergency kit. I'm thinking he was too distracted by her disappearance to think it was very important. I'd like to know if they actually showed him the rag or did they just tell him a rag was in her tailpipe. I could be wrong about my theory, but the thought did occur to me. I wish I knew the details such as who said her car was running on only 3 cylinders. Was it a trained mechanic or a friend who knew a little about cars? The diagnosis of the car's problems could have been wrong. There is that possibility Maura put the rag in their as her dad suggested, or she was trying to minimize the smoke from the exhaust (she didn't want to be detected), but I'm thinking there were assumptions made about that rag. It could have been there all along. It could have been a prank or a person upset with Maura who put that rag up her tailpipe. It could have been a male or a female.

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  15. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by minazoe View Post
    did someone put the rag in the pipe to keep her from taking off...how is putting a rag a good thing? I don't see this as normal in anyway.
    Sometimes people put a rag in their tailpipe if the car is going to sit unused for a long period of time. It prevents mice from making nests. Mechanics sometimes use a rag to check for exhaust leaks, but I don't think they pack it way up into the pipe. Otherwise, I don't see any good reason to pack the tailpipe with a rag. JMO

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    I swear, I think I've learned more in the past few months from Mr. Renner's blog than I have in all these years of online news releases. At least we know the horse cemetery is a rule-out. Whether his intentions are to write a book or whatever his intentions are, at least he seems to be working hard to solve Maura's disappearance and he just may end up being the one who does it.
    I agree with all of you who are puzzled over the rag in the tailpipe. It puzzles me just about as much as anything about this whole case. If somebody did it as a prank then I think it could have been done by someone who didn't like Maura, because it could very well have caused her to be broken down by the side of the road. Which oddly is very similar to what actually happened to her, ending up on a dark road by herself. It seems like a mean thing to do, to stuff a rag way up the tailpipe like that. If someone played a prank like that on me I would not find it funny and would pretty much feel certain that the person who did it either can't stand me or is an idiot.
    I too wonder whether Fred just assumed the rag was from the emergency kit. If the police took the rag along with the other evidence then he may never have seen it.

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  21. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogperson View Post
    I swear, I think I've learned more in the past few months from Mr. Renner's blog than I have in all these years of online news releases. At least we know the horse cemetery is a rule-out. Whether his intentions are to write a book or whatever his intentions are, at least he seems to be working hard to solve Maura's disappearance and he just may end up being the one who does it.
    I agree with all of you who are puzzled over the rag in the tailpipe. It puzzles me just about as much as anything about this whole case. If somebody did it as a prank then I think it could have been done by someone who didn't like Maura, because it could very well have caused her to be broken down by the side of the road. Which oddly is very similar to what actually happened to her, ending up on a dark road by herself. It seems like a mean thing to do, to stuff a rag way up the tailpipe like that. If someone played a prank like that on me I would not find it funny and would pretty much feel certain that the person who did it either can't stand me or is an idiot.

    I too wonder whether Fred just assumed the rag was from the emergency kit. If the police took the rag along with the other evidence then he may never have seen it.
    I think that rag was in the tailpipe before she left for NH. This is just my speculation. There had to have been either an exhaust leak or the exhaust was able to bypass the rag in some way for her to be able to drive the car at all. It would have stalled immediately otherwise. Even if someone shoved it in at one of her stops, it would have blown out from the exhaust's pressure, or the car would have stalled. With the rag there, the car's performance would have felt underpowered. It makes me wonder if she needed to floor the accelerator to keep pace on the freeway and on Rt. 112. Maybe this is why she lost control on the curve.

    I do think it was possible someone at school put that rag in her tailpipe. Maybe some guy she rejected or someone jealous of her in some way did it.

    I want to emphasize that this is just a theory--not fact.

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  23. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by McSpy View Post
    I think that rag was in the tailpipe before she left for NH. This is just my speculation. There had to have been either an exhaust leak or the exhaust was able to bypass the rag in some way for her to be able to drive the car at all. It would have stalled immediately otherwise. Even if someone shoved it in at one of her stops, it would have blown out from the exhaust's pressure, or the car would have stalled. With the rag there, the car's performance would have felt underpowered. It makes me wonder if she needed to floor the accelerator to keep pace on the freeway and on Rt. 112. Maybe this is why she lost control on the curve.

    I do think it was possible someone at school put that rag in her tailpipe. Maybe some guy she rejected or someone jealous of her in some way did it.

    I want to emphasize that this is just a theory--not fact.
    I'm new here but have followed this case for a while.

    It's very likely she would need extra throttle to maintain speed if the rag had been in for any length of time. But what if by giving the car more throttle it caused the exhaust to back up and the engine stalled(This happened to me from a clogged cat converter)? And if the engine did stall going into a curve she would have lost all power to the brakes and power steering. No power steering or brakes in those conditions guaranteed a wreck.

    These are just my 2 cents worth for now.

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  25. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by l67 View Post
    I'm new here but have followed this case for a while.

    It's very likely she would need extra throttle to maintain speed if the rag had been in for any length of time. But what if by giving the car more throttle it caused the exhaust to back up and the engine stalled(This happened to me from a clogged cat converter)? And if the engine did stall going into a curve she would have lost all power to the brakes and power steering. No power steering or brakes in those conditions guaranteed a wreck.

    These are just my 2 cents worth for now.
    My opinions only, no facts here:

    In the old days, a mean trick was to shove a potato up the exhaust pipe to absolutely STOP A VEHICLE FROM RUNNING. And that is the point. In order for a rag to remain in the exhaust pipe of a vehicle for an extended period of time, it would have to be snug. This is because of the pressure of the exhaust from the engine trying to force the rag out. And if the rag was snug, the vehicle would likely not run at all. My judgement is that the rag would have been placed into the exhaust pipe AFTER the vehicle left the road. But why? It could be a crude attempt at suicide I suppose. It could be to keep piled-up snow from melting and draining into the exhaust pipe (the position of the vehicle and depths of snow pushed up around it are needed for that hypothesis). It could be to make it appear that a rag in the exhaust pipe was the cause of the accident.

    But, I reiterate what I said in earlier posts. Regardless of the reason for the rag in the tailpipe, I treat it as "white noise" that befuddles the sleuth and detracts from what is significant. Maura drove off the road. She walked 100 yards to the junction with Bradley Hill Road at about 1 Wild Ammonoosuc Road. There her fate became intertwined with someone else. None of the prominent names cited in the case are suspects in my opinion. I would rather look for someone else who has not yet been identified, a permanent or sometimes resident of the local area who had a prior criminal record that included violence against women. Even if such a person is found, they may be innocent of any involvement, but there will be a better batting-percentage with this strategy. Another thought- look for an incident in the area between 2003 and 2005 involving an attempted abduction or curious incident on the roadway after dark, where an intended woman victim escaped and provided a description of the suspect. Even expert serial criminals fail from time to time and failed criminal acts can be overlooked for their investigative value.

    I almost never link cases, but I believe it is nominally possible that the whole Brianna Maitland affair is associated with the Maura Murray case. It is remarkable that neither of these women have been found (assuming that they are actually deceased-which is unproven). With the ground possibly being somewhat frozen during the Maitland disappearance, I wonder if someone found a good hiding place other than digging? A well? An old vertical mine shaft or cave? An outbuilding on the property they were operating from?

    These are the odds I listed here sometime ago. I will repost them for your interest:

    Maura was abducted by someone who was a “sometimes-resident” of the area- 3 out of 7.
    Maura was abducted by someone who was a permanent resident of the area- 2 out of 7.
    Maura was abducted by someone randomly passing through- 1 out of 7.
    Maura wandered into the woods and died in a non-criminal manner- 0.5 out of 7.
    Maura went on a marathon run down the road to places unknown- 0.5 out of 7.

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  27. #640
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    Always enjoy your commentary Mr. Noatak. Wish a better job had been done with the tracking dog (believe it only one) since it was said that the article used for scent was questionable. Also, do we know how reliable the dog that was used was as far as tracking - the further it goes from the car (strongest scent) the more the scent it follows become weak in comparison for following away from the car versus going back toward the car.... A expert in this would know better..

    I agree with Scoops logic:

    Quote Originally Posted by scoops View Post
    Some good points here and things to think about.

    I in no way think Maura planned her second wreck (but in sticking with the suicide theory) it is awfully tough to comprehend why Maura is believed to depart from the accident scene with her backpack and bottles of alcohol as opposed to leaving her jewelry and clothes, school books, father's accident forms and other items behind.

    Surely, she wasn't going to be coming back to an accident scene later that night (the car wasn't going to be there because it was towed). Even if the car hadn't been towed, she wouldn't been able to drive away in it.

    (meeting someone theory) I would think if she was meeting someone that they would've came and got her and allowed her to grab at least some clothing and her valuables, posibly even her father's accident forms to take with her or she would've walked to a certain destination to meet up, and out of all the things she would've brought with her would be something to wear not just bottles of alcohol in a back pack.

    (Boogey man theory) If she were abducted from the scene, I doubt the abductor would have much patience for her to clean out her back pack of her school books and load it up with the bottles of alcohol. I would think the abductor would want to grab her and go.

    I think her original plans before the second wreck might've been to think things out a bit (but I have a feeling for someone that lived her life to conquer mountains) that if she was suicidal, that would be kind of a way I would want to go out, on top of a mountain top, kind of making a grand exit sort of speak).

    Not every person that commits suicide just troughs off into a closet and hangs themself. For Instance. Some that end up doing it have a very systematic apporach to it (like tying up loose ends making thnings easier on family and then even planning the fatal event).

    But this all just my theory and no more correct than any other.
    Speaking of mysteries - billions of humans past and present; so how did I windup conscious, self-aware looking out from inside this one? Did the prize-patrol show up at my birth?

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  29. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
    Always enjoy your commentary Mr. Noatak. Wish a better job had been done with the tracking dog (believe it only one) since it was said that the article used for scent was questionable. Also, do we know how reliable the dog that was used was as far as tracking - the further it goes from the car (strongest scent) the more the scent it follows become weak in comparison for following away from the car versus going back toward the car.... A expert in this would know better..

    I agree with Scoops logic:
    In one of his theories, Scoops said that he doubts an abductor would wait for Maura to empty her backpack of books and replace them with the alcohol. IMO, she was possibly taken after she had left the car. She could have been 300 yards up the road or 2 miles up the road, but I don't think she was abducted at the accident scene. I also don't think she was abducted off the road. IMO, she accepted a ride by the wrong person. I could be wrong, but it rings true to me. I've taken those kinds of chances when I was her age.

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    It is around 15 miles to the next town, if she continued down Rt. 112. Imagine running down that road in the pitch black darkness. There is no ambient light as you go futher into the forest on Rt. 112. I know that one's eyes can adjust somewhat, but there is a limit. No details can be distinguished. I can see getting scared and disoriented by the blackness and the quiet. If Maura was avoiding vehicles, she could have hopped over a snowbank. The other side of the snowbank could have been an embankment or a ravine. A stump or a hole could have been hidden in the soft snow. She could have broke or twisted an ankle or worse. She could have had a hard time getting back up onto the roadway or she tried to continue her walk in terrible pain. Since she was young, a track star, and had hiked the mountains in her leisure, I think she could have made it far down the road. If she was not abducted, the darkness could have played tricks on her headway.

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  33. #643
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    The only reason I brought up my new theory about the rag, is because it had occurred to me and I thought I'd share my thoughts. The sad thing is if my theory is true in anyway, then that rag had changed her fate. Her dad would have not been in town to help her find a car. She would not have got into the first car wreck and she would not have gone up to NH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McSpy View Post
    The only reason I brought up my new theory about the rag, is because it had occurred to me and I thought I'd share my thoughts. The sad thing is if my theory is true in anyway, then that rag had changed her fate. Her dad would have not been in town to help her find a car. She would not have got into the first car wreck and she would not have gone up to NH.
    Don't fret. There are more than one pair of butterfly wings fluttering around the world.

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    could that rag have been there to prevent Maura from drinking and driving that car....could someone have been under the wrong impression that it would stop the car after a block or two?

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  38. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by McSpy View Post
    The only reason I brought up my new theory about the rag, is because it had occurred to me and I thought I'd share my thoughts. The sad thing is if my theory is true in anyway, then that rag had changed her fate. Her dad would have not been in town to help her find a car. She would not have got into the first car wreck and she would not have gone up to NH.
    That's a something I've don't ever remember hearing - the theory being if someone placed the rag in the tailpipe while her car was in Amherst, causing her and her father to believe she needed a new car... and that set in motion those fateful events.
    How do you figure they would have gotten into her trunk to get that particular rag out of the kit FM gave her? (I assumed the kit was in the trunk of the car, and locked - I could be wrong...
    possible her car doors were unlocked and could the trunk be opened from inside the car? I believe you once had this model car and might know the answer? )
    Speaking of mysteries - billions of humans past and present; so how did I windup conscious, self-aware looking out from inside this one? Did the prize-patrol show up at my birth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
    That's a something I've don't ever remember hearing - the theory being if someone placed the rag in the tailpipe while her car was in Amherst, causing her and her father to believe she needed a new car... and that set in motion those fateful events.
    How do you figure they would have gotten into her trunk to get that particular rag out of the kit FM gave her? (I assumed the kit was in the trunk of the car, and locked - I could be wrong...
    possible her car doors were unlocked and could the trunk be opened from inside the car? I believe you once had this model car and might know the answer? )
    I'm thinking that LE may not have shown Fred the rag. They may have just asked him why she would have a rag in her car's tailpipe. Fred could have assumed it was from his emergency kit. To be honest, I can't picture LE saving the rag and showing it to Fred to identify. I wish I knew what actually happened.

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  41. #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by minazoe View Post
    could that rag have been there to prevent Maura from drinking and driving that car....could someone have been under the wrong impression that it would stop the car after a block or two?
    IMO, it is possible. However, I'm still stuck on my theory though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
    That's a something I've don't ever remember hearing - the theory being if someone placed the rag in the tailpipe while her car was in Amherst, causing her and her father to believe she needed a new car... and that set in motion those fateful events.
    How do you figure they would have gotten into her trunk to get that particular rag out of the kit FM gave her? (I assumed the kit was in the trunk of the car, and locked - I could be wrong...
    possible her car doors were unlocked and could the trunk be opened from inside the car? I believe you once had this model car and might know the answer? )

    Good points, but like McSpy said, it might not have been the same rag. Even if LE did show Fred the rag (and I agree with McSpy that that was probably not at the top of their priority list), would he really be able to tell for sure that it was the same rag from her kit? Unless he also looked in her kit and saw that her rag was missing, I don't know how he could have positively known that it was THE rag unless it has some pattern or other identifying mark that was familiar to him. If it was just plain, it could easily have been a different rag. How familiar are most of us with what everything looks like in our emergency kits, anyway? You really only look at it when you need it. Fred might not have known it as well as he thought he did.

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    I think this is a case of Occam's Razor.

    Maura wanted to spend some time alone to think, she crashed her car while drinking, freaked out about getting into trouble for driving while drinking, and ran into the woods. She was overcome by the elements and died there.

    I just hope that some day her remains will be found and she can be properly laid to rest.
    Jill can't find last year's taxes either.

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