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Thread: NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #8

  1. #651
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    All useful discussion I've heard about the rag seemed to indicate--IIRC--that the rag was fairly clean, and so that would mean it wasn't necessarily in there for a long time while the car was running.

    Can anyone back my memory up on this? Or link to something fruitful about it?

    This might be especially helpful if, like Mr. Renner said, the rag was "really jammed up in there good" (or however he phrased it.

    Am I the only one who remembers people discussing the rag's condition at some point?

    ETA: that isn't to say that current discussion of the rag isn't fruitful--I just couldn't figure out how else to say what I meant. Which goes more like this: "can anyone post a link to a newspaper article or sometihng that discusses it?"

  2. #652
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    As unlikely as it may sound I think that Maura just happened to be near the wrong person at the wrong time. I'm sure the odds are very slim, but what else can explain her just falling off the face of the Earth? I'm sure other things are possible too like her being alive and living an assumed life. I'd bet that if any one of us saw her tomorrow we would not recognise her. I'd like to know the odds of either one of those things having happened. I'm sure no one could tell us.

  3. #653
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    Allot of interesting comments posted to JR's Blog "Sunday, November 20, 2011
    Request for info: Maura's Last Weekend at UMass"

    http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011...l#comment-form

    I thought the comment made by "teapot" on Nov. 20 2011 was interesting....
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  5. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
    Allot of interesting comments posted to JR's Blog "Sunday, November 20, 2011
    Request for info: Maura's Last Weekend at UMass"

    http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011...l#comment-form

    I thought the comment made by "teapot" on Nov. 20 2011 was interesting....
    I can think of one thing that would negate the comment made by "teapot" from the first sentence:

    If Maura's only plans that night were to go to a dorm party and then to bed, why on earth did she bother to take her father's car? Why not just get dropped off?
    They had dinner at a brew pub. Fred allegedly has a propensity to enjoy imbibing alcohol. Fred could have been too impaired to drive and Maura dropped him off at the hotel. Why call a cab or a friend to pick her up when she already had transportation (the Corrola) back to the dorm?

    ETA: Why would she be so determined to return the car to the hotel? A) To prevent Fred from driving impaired while she was at the dorm party or B) Fred was not aware or might not remember after awakening the next morning that she borrowed it and then report it stolen or C) Both.

    The commentary above is only conjecture.
    Last edited by I Care; 11-22-2011 at 10:33 AM.

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  7. #655
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Care View Post
    I can think of one thing that would negate the comment made by "teapot" from the first sentence:



    They had dinner at a brew pub. Fred allegedly has a propensity to enjoy imbibing alcohol. Fred could have been too impaired to drive and Maura dropped him off at the hotel. Why call a cab or a friend to pick her up when she already had transportation (the Corrola) back to the dorm?

    ETA: Why would she be so determined to return the car to the hotel? A) To prevent Fred from driving impaired while she was at the dorm party or B) Fred was not aware or might not remember after awakening the next morning that she borrowed it and then report it stolen or C) Both.

    The commentary above is only conjecture.
    I like your analysis of this! Makes allot of sense!
    Speaking of mysteries - billions of people past/present, how on earth did I get be on earth and self-aware?

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  8. #656
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    "Teapot's" comments on Mr. Renner's blog are very interesting. It had never occurred to me that Maura might have made up the stories about her car not running well and being unreliable. Many of us have wondered why she would have driven the car so far on the night she disappeared. But IF there really was nothing wrong with the car she would have known it was perfectly safe to drive. Lying about the car's performance opens up a whole new can of worms concerning WHY she felt she needed to lie about it.

    As to why she spent the night with her dad at the hotel, I think I had always assumed she had been drinking at the party earlier and maybe that's why she had the accident. Plus I assumed she and her dad had a drink or two together earlier in the night at the Pub. I thought maybe her dad made her stay the rest of the night at the hotel because she was unsafe to drive. Or, if she truly did not enjoy driving then she may have been too nervous that night to drive herself back. Of course, there are many more sinister scenarios we can come up with about this father and daughter, but I am not going to suggest anything like that was going on. Yes, they do seem to have a far closer relationship than most dads and daughters that I personally know, and they are certainly much closer than I ever was with my own father, but every family is different and in some families the dads have done more caregiving of the children than the moms.

    I don't know how much Fred had drunk that night or why she felt she had to get the car back to him in the middle of the night. ICARE suggested Fred may have woken up the next morning and not remembered loaning her the car, then reporting it stolen. We had a client here where I work who was seriously ill and highly medicated. He came in to do his regular business at our office, walked out, then came back in and claimed his car was missing. He then called the police and reported it stolen. A few days later one of my co-workers spotted his "stolen" car parked across the street from THE POLICE STATION! I am not kidding! She called the police and told them to look out the window, at which point they realized the car had probably been sitting at that spot ever since the stolen report was made, rather than being parked at the location our client thought he left it. They contacted our client, who had sobered up from his medications and realized that he had just parked his car on a different block than he thought, then forgot where he parked it. It had never been stolen at all. My point being, if Fred had a tendency to drink heavily, or a tendency to have blackouts while drinking, then it's possible he would have forgotten where his car was.

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  10. #657
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    Snow fall and banking sizes in 2004

    I don't have an account on the topix website, so I thought I'd address the question of snowfall totals and snowbank heights here. I'm sure those inquiring will find it here eventually.

    Below are links to some screencaps from the Nancy Grace show aired on January 27, 2006 The caps are of file footage from WMUR News taken during February of 2004. It's unknown to me which day in February the footage was recorded.

    Total snowfall accumulation for North Haverhill can be found through the NOAA website and is listed by month. In December 2003 there were 31.6 inches of snow that fell; January 2004 there were 7.2 inches and February 2004, 7.8 inches. This doesn't really help in nailing down the particular day in February which the images were recorded. It could've snowed accumulatively or after Feb 9. Pay sites can provide the data broken down by the days, which would be more useful. You also need to account for shrinkage from solar melting.

    From corner of Bradley Hill Rd looking SE towards Weathered Barn.


    In this image perspective deceives the eye with what looks like an enormous snowbank on the left side of the image. A better sense of the true heights of the bankings can be gauged by looking at the yellow traffic sign which is a fixed height and the snow stakes poking out of the top of the banking.

    From corner of Bradley Hill across from SBD's house looking SE towards Weathered Barn.


    This image shows the height of the banking the corner of Bradley Hill Rd. It's still difficult to gauge without a nearby object of fixed height. I would guess maybe 2 or 3 feet.

    South looking at road shoulder towards "blue ribbon" tree and Old Peters Road.


    This image shows the shoulder of the road looking at the location of the "blue ribbon tree." This is allegedly not the site where the Saturn came to rest which is a little further NW up the road. It looks slippery and sloppy but there is not alot of accumulation of snow here. As you can see in the tire tracks, which could've been made by another vehicle other than the Saturn, the height looks like it may come up 1/3 or 1/2 the height of a tire. If the Saturn did indeed make these tracks, and if it had not snowed since, it is plain to see that they lead nowhere near any of these trees, indicating that she had not collided into them.


    Near "blue ribbon tree" looking SE toward Weathered Barn.


    In this image you can see the road and immediate shoulder is almost clean, by plow or solar melt.
    Last edited by I Care; 12-01-2011 at 11:33 AM.

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  12. #658
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    FWIW, I got my compass E-W directions reversed. Corrections are below.

    Quote Originally Posted by I Care View Post
    From corner of Bradley Hill Rd looking SW towards Weathered Barn.

    From corner of Bradley Hill across from SBD's house looking SW towards Weathered Barn.

    South looking at road shoulder towards "blue ribbon" tree and Old Peters Road.

    ...allegedly not the site where the Saturn came to rest which is a little further N up the road.

    Near "blue ribbon tree" looking SW toward Weathered Barn.

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  14. #659
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    I can't decide if I think that James Renner is so busy with new leads that he doesn't have time to post, or he has no new info, thus nothing new to say.

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    Always a surprise around the corner with him. I'm sure its just the holiday season keeping him at an arm's length. He'll post something soon I'm sure.

  16. #661
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    When all is said and done, I don't know if there is really enough to write a book about this case.
    Speaking of mysteries - billions of people past/present, how on earth did I get be on earth and self-aware?

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  18. #662
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    Forthcoming Book

    Quote Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
    When all is said and done, I don't know if there is really enough to write a book about this case.
    BBM

    I believe we'll learn, in the due course of time, there IS enough for a book. After all, it's not as though JR doesn't have enough other cases of possible interest to explore for a book; the disappearance of Tara Grinstead comes to mind in this regard.....

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    Archer Mayor could make a fabulous fictional mystery out of this tragic story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rosierider View Post
    I can't decide if I think that James Renner is so busy with new leads that he doesn't have time to post, or he has no new info, thus nothing new to say.
    http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/

    He just posted a message today.

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  22. #665
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    I'm thinking he follows this thread...

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  24. #666
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    After being on this thread and reading all that I have about Maura which is a ton, I have come to the conclusion that....I have no idea what happened to her. She has just disappeared without a trace.

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  26. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by telemag View Post
    After being on this thread and reading all that I have about Maura which is a ton, I have come to the conclusion that....I have no idea what happened to her. She has just disappeared without a trace.
    I know what you mean. I feel the same way. Let's hope some day she is found and that her family gets some answers.

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  28. #668
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    I really hope so too. I kinda feel like I know her after all that I have read about her.

    OK here's just a thought I had. I know that the bus driver BA? correct? Anyway from what I read he backed his bus into his driveway and called 911. If I am remembering correctly he went back out to his bus for something. I also recall being said that from where he parked his bus he could still see Maura and her car. OK, so what if after he went back out, Maura came walking down the road and this time asked Butch to use his phone or something to that effect? Does anyone think it possible that things might have gotten out of hand? Maybe something happened between Maura and BA and an arguement ensued? Anyway, just a thought. Certainly isn't going to help, but I just can't seem to get this off my mind.

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  30. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by telemag View Post
    I really hope so too. I kinda feel like I know her after all that I have read about her.

    OK here's just a thought I had. I know that the bus driver BA? correct? Anyway from what I read he backed his bus into his driveway and called 911. If I am remembering correctly he went back out to his bus for something. I also recall being said that from where he parked his bus he could still see Maura and her car. OK, so what if after he went back out, Maura came walking down the road and this time asked Butch to use his phone or something to that effect? Does anyone think it possible that things might have gotten out of hand? Maybe something happened between Maura and BA and an arguement ensued? Anyway, just a thought. Certainly isn't going to help, but I just can't seem to get this off my mind.
    Anything is possible, but in my mind, I feel the bus driver was just a witness. Her scent was lost in front of his residence, but I'm not convinced she did not keep on going down that road. Supposedly, dogs don't track that well in cold weather. Also, the glove they used as a scent guide was not something she wore often. In fact, if I recall correctly, her father said she didn't like wearing gloves. So, I'm not satisfied that the scent tracking tells us anything conclusive. She could have ran past his house or accepted a ride, when he was
    in the house talking to his wife.

  31. #670
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    Quote Originally Posted by telemag View Post
    I really hope so too. I kinda feel like I know her after all that I have read about her.

    OK here's just a thought I had. I know that the bus driver BA? correct? Anyway from what I read he backed his bus into his driveway and called 911. If I am remembering correctly he went back out to his bus for something. I also recall being said that from where he parked his bus he could still see Maura and her car. OK, so what if after he went back out, Maura came walking down the road and this time asked Butch to use his phone or something to that effect? Does anyone think it possible that things might have gotten out of hand? Maybe something happened between Maura and BA and an arguement ensued? Anyway, just a thought. Certainly isn't going to help, but I just can't seem to get this off my mind.
    Anything is possible, but in my mind, I feel the bus driver was just a witness. Her scent was lost in front of his residence, but I'm not convinced she did not keep on going down that road. Supposedly, dogs don't track that well in cold weather. Also, the glove they used as a scent guide was not something she wore often. In fact, if I recall correctly, her father said she didn't like wearing gloves. So, I'm not satisfied that the scent tracking tells us anything conclusive. She could have ran past his house or accepted a ride, when he was
    in the house talking to his wife.

  32. #671
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    My opinions only, no facts here:

    I personally believe that the tracking dog got it right, and I think that where the scent trail ended is relevant to this case. But I do not consider ANYBODY named to date as a potential person of interest.

    I would look for someone who was in their 20's to early 30's at the time of the crime, living off and on in the Jaffrey area, and with a prior criminal record that included violence towards women. I would consider the possibility of a link between the Brianna Maitland and Maura Murray disappearances. Because it was winter and the ground was somewhat frozen in both of these cases, I would look for victims in a well, old mine shaft or cave, or under the floor of a barn. The person who grabbed Maura (and possibly Brianna) has likely performed similar actions before and since. One way to break this case would be to examine any 'failed abductions' in the region from the late 1990's to after 2004 and see if witnesses provided sketches of a suspect. If more than one such incidence is uncovered, compare the suspect sketches.

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  34. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Noatak View Post
    My opinions only, no facts here:

    I personally believe that the tracking dog got it right, and I think that where the scent trail ended is relevant to this case. But I do not consider ANYBODY named to date as a potential person of interest.

    I would look for someone who was in their 20's to early 30's at the time of the crime, living off and on in the Jaffrey area, and with a prior criminal record that included violence towards women. I would consider the possibility of a link between the Brianna Maitland and Maura Murray disappearances. Because it was winter and the ground was somewhat frozen in both of these cases, I would look for victims in a well, old mine shaft or cave, or under the floor of a barn. The person who grabbed Maura (and possibly Brianna) has likely performed similar actions before and since. One way to break this case would be to examine any 'failed abductions' in the region from the late 1990's to after 2004 and see if witnesses provided sketches of a suspect. If more than one such incidence is uncovered, compare the suspect sketches.
    Why do you not suspect the bus driver? Im asking because I have studied this case but not nearly enough to know ALL the information. Has there been any info given that clears him in your opinion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victory View Post
    Why do you not suspect the bus driver? Im asking because I have studied this case but not nearly enough to know ALL the information. Has there been any info given that clears him in your opinion?
    My opinions only, no facts here:

    The bus driver was fully cooperative with authorities. The bus driver had a wife and mother living at his home, and they both were present in his home on the night of the accident. The bus driver had his wife call the police to report the accident after talking with Maura, even though Maura pleaded with him not to call the police. AFTER the bus left the accident scene, another neighborhood witness saw lights go on and off in Maura's car and a flurry of activity at the rear of the car and ONE person standing at the trunk.

    The bus driver, like several other local witnesses, eventually got tired of being endlessly interviewed, called, or otherwise harassed and stopped talking.

    You will have to trust me on this one: there is a reason that Maura disappeared where she did. But it had nothing to do with anyone yet named in this most interesting case. Sleuth on good buddy!

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  37. #674
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    I believe people who knew the School Bus Driver are convinced he was nothing but a good Samaritan who happened along and tried to help someone at a minor crash scene. If it appears that his rendition of events changed from those initially reported that evening (if they changed at all) then perhaps if was for safety and self-preservation. Maybe someone passed along or hinted to SBD that MM was abducted by a known local (thug, drug dealer, biker) bad guy or guys and locals are afraid of this person with good reason. If you had vulnerable loved ones in that situation you might consider being a tad more clandestine about your opinions, or perhaps SBD just got sick of being badgered by everyone as to why he didn’t do more for MM at that time. That might lead some to speculate that his behavior was odd… but I don’t think many sense SBD is culpable in any way.

    So SBD backs his bus into his driveway, goes inside and asks his domestic partner to call in the accident. He knows that the police will be along and will probably want some information to add to their accident report so… he sits in his bus, fills out his daily trip sheet and waits for LE. If MM had passed by on foot trying to obtain a better cell phone signal, SBD probably would have asked her in for tea. Maybe the abductor(s) snatched MM before SBD got back outside or maybe they drove right past by him?

    If the SAR dog lost the trail by SBD’s house it might be because she was in the abductor’s vehicle. It would also depend on whether the SAR dog was a “tracker”, an “air-scenter” or other.

    http://science.howstuffworks.com/env...s/sar-dog2.htm

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  39. #675
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    Thanks Unscripted for the link to the SAR dog info - most interesting to read.
    Speaking of mysteries - billions of people past/present, how on earth did I get be on earth and self-aware?

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