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  1. #1
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    Five Blows of the Dragon, Part One

    Hi again, everybody.

    I'm trying to put together a list of points to hit on this Sunday's broadcast. We're doing this airing to educate people, and God knows some of them need it!

    What I'm asking is this: depending on the point, I'd like for anyone who can contribute to contribute as much as possible from as many sources as possible. I know it's asking a lot, but it's worth it.

    I'd like to start with Point One. Point one is how a domestic killing is most often solved. As most of us who have followed true crime know, when a child is found dead in their own home with two or more people there, the case is not solved by the forensic evidence. Instead, the police solve it by, as the lady DA on Law & Order SVU put it so well, squeezing the suspects until one of them pops.

    By that I mean you arrest them, separate them, then come around to each one and say, "who wants a get-out-of-jail-free" card? In other words, you get one to give up the other one.

    Well, that's what the police WANTED to do, and what the FBI, the "Dream Team" guys and Chief Beckner TOLD them to do: arrest the Ramseys and throw them in jail until one of them confessed.

    So what I want to do here is, I want to cobble together all of the things that COULD have been done by the investigators to solve this case that were NOT done and to acquire material that shows how probable cause works to that end. And apparently, the Ramseys' lawyers knew more about it than the DA did, because, despite Hal Haddon's public statements, John Ramsey has made it clear that the lawyers were preparing for the police to do exactly that: arrest them, separate them, place snitches in the cells with them to frighten them, etc. Funny how that works out.

    I admit I have personal reasons for this. Some of my "friends" (and I clenched my teeth on that) have tried to portray this absolutely STANDARD tactics as some kind of coercion. They claim I want to waterboard innocent people. I want this point to be reinforced to show how hollow their claim is. (On a side note, I can't help but wonder why they don't have enough guts to accuse me of that HERE!)

    I'll start off on this one. I quote from ST's book:

    "A prosecutor can do a lot with probable cause short of arrest; it can open the door to search warrants, wiretaps and other investigative avenues. Hunter's failure to aggressively pursue any of these options when he knew the forensic case had holes was inexcusable."

    And there's a lot to choose from. The police wanted search warrants. They wanted to tap the Ramseys' phone. They wanted to place listening bugs in the house. They wanted to call a Grand Jury early on (and of much different character than the dog-and-pony show they ended up with). They wanted to arrest the Ramseys and separate them.

    ALL were shot down at higher levels.

    Let's have at it!
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  2. #2
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    LE could have sealed the house that very morning, throwing all the R's friends, clergy and "victim's advocates" out. Kept the Rs under close watch, under gunpoint if necessary.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  3. #3
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    LE should have stopped Aunt Pam from removing items from the house.

    LE should not have let the Ramseys go four months without answering questions.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Hi again, everybody.

    I'm trying to put together a list of points to hit on this Sunday's broadcast. We're doing this airing to educate people, and God knows some of them need it!

    What I'm asking is this: depending on the point, I'd like for anyone who can contribute to contribute as much as possible from as many sources as possible. I know it's asking a lot, but it's worth it.

    I'd like to start with Point One. Point one is how a domestic killing is most often solved. As most of us who have followed true crime know, when a child is found dead in their own home with two or more people there, the case is not solved by the forensic evidence. Instead, the police solve it by, as the lady DA on Law & Order SVU put it so well, squeezing the suspects until one of them pops.

    By that I mean you arrest them, separate them, then come around to each one and say, "who wants a get-out-of-jail-free" card? In other words, you get one to give up the other one.

    Well, that's what the police WANTED to do, and what the FBI, the "Dream Team" guys and Chief Beckner TOLD them to do: arrest the Ramseys and throw them in jail until one of them confessed.

    So what I want to do here is, I want to cobble together all of the things that COULD have been done by the investigators to solve this case that were NOT done and to acquire material that shows how probable cause works to that end. And apparently, the Ramseys' lawyers knew more about it than the DA did, because, despite Hal Haddon's public statements, John Ramsey has made it clear that the lawyers were preparing for the police to do exactly that: arrest them, separate them, place snitches in the cells with them to frighten them, etc. Funny how that works out.

    I admit I have personal reasons for this. Some of my "friends" (and I clenched my teeth on that) have tried to portray this absolutely STANDARD tactics as some kind of coercion. They claim I want to waterboard innocent people. I want this point to be reinforced to show how hollow their claim is. (On a side note, I can't help but wonder why they don't have enough guts to accuse me of that HERE!)

    I'll start off on this one. I quote from ST's book:

    "A prosecutor can do a lot with probable cause short of arrest; it can open the door to search warrants, wiretaps and other investigative avenues. Hunter's failure to aggressively pursue any of these options when he knew the forensic case had holes was inexcusable."

    And there's a lot to choose from. The police wanted search warrants. They wanted to tap the Ramseys' phone. They wanted to place listening bugs in the house. They wanted to call a Grand Jury early on (and of much different character than the dog-and-pony show they ended up with). They wanted to arrest the Ramseys and separate them.

    ALL were shot down at higher levels.

    Let's have at it!
    The Ramsey's coats and purse/brief case should have been searched before they left the house that afternoon.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by vlpate View Post
    The Ramsey's coats and purse/brief case should have been searched before they left the house that afternoon.
    Ditto any "fur boots", which Patsy claimed to own but said she "lost them". I guess her sister got those too.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by eileenhawkeye View Post
    LE should have stopped Aunt Pam from removing items from the house.

    LE should not have let the Ramseys go four months without answering questions.
    eileenhawkeye,
    LE should have stopped Aunt Pam from removing items from the house.
    Sure. And who authorised it, and likewise Officer Arndt being left alone to secure a homicide crime-scene.

    This is evidence of a smoking gun for a conspiracy!

    In the UK we have some obscure statute that covers stuff like this e.g. Malfeasance in a public office aka dereliction of duty etc.





    .

  7. #7
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    Not sure if arresting them and putting them in jail would have done any good. Maybe. Maybe not. The Rs were smart enough to listen to their lawyers. They probably wouldn't have talked to police w/o a lawyer present. People can only be held in jail for so long, then there has to be a charge, or release.

    Separating them, and arresting them is a good basic technique, but it really only works because most people either don't know their rights, or don't have the will to keep their mouth shut. I'm doubtful this would have worked on the Rs.

    LE should not have let the Ramseys go four months without answering questions.
    LE had no choice. The Rs were not under any obligation to answer questions, even 4 months later.

    LE could have sealed the house that very morning, throwing all the R's friends, clergy and "victim's advocates" out. Kept the Rs under close watch, under gunpoint if necessary.
    Until the body was found, it was a kidnapping case. It might have been a good idea to get the guests out of the house, but there would have been no justification for holding the Rs at gunpoint, at least not until after the body was "found".

    It might have been interesting had they brought in a K9 unit early in the morning. It would have transformed very quickly into a murder case, and the cops reactions might have been very different.

    There isn't much point asking what could have been done. More relevant is the question -who ordered it not done, or who refused authorization to do things.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrishope View Post
    Not sure if arresting them and putting them in jail would have done any good. Maybe. Maybe not. The Rs were smart enough to listen to their lawyers. They probably wouldn't have talked to police w/o a lawyer present. People can only be held in jail for so long, then there has to be a charge, or release.

    Separating them, and arresting them is a good basic technique, but it really only works because most people either don't know their rights, or don't have the will to keep their mouth shut. I'm doubtful this would have worked on the Rs.



    LE had no choice. The Rs were not under any obligation to answer questions, even 4 months later.



    Until the body was found, it was a kidnapping case. It might have been a good idea to get the guests out of the house, but there would have been no justification for holding the Rs at gunpoint, at least not until after the body was "found".

    It might have been interesting had they brought in a K9 unit early in the morning. It would have transformed very quickly into a murder case, and the cops reactions might have been very different.

    There isn't much point asking what could have been done. More relevant is the question -who ordered it not done, or who refused authorization to do things.

    As usual, we have to leave it to you to make some common sense out of this. And had the police secured the crime scene, we may not be having this discussion for the past 15 years. LE should have found that girls body in the first 30 minutes of being at the house. And most likely because they didn't, they have been covering their tracks ever since.
    The discovery of additional matching DNA in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case is important information that raises more questions in the search for JonBenet's killer. The BPD concurs with the Boulder District Attorney's Office that this is a significant finding. The PD has continued to look diligently for the source of the foreign DNA, and to date, we have compared DNA samples taken from more than 200 people. Finding the source of the DNA is key to helping us determine who killed JonBenet

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrishope View Post
    Not sure if arresting them and putting them in jail would have done any good. Maybe. Maybe not. The Rs were smart enough to listen to their lawyers. They probably wouldn't have talked to police w/o a lawyer present. People can only be held in jail for so long, then there has to be a charge, or release.
    I'm talking even before they HAD lawyers. The police had plenty enough probable cause to arrest them the minute John R contacted his pilot to flee the state.

    Besides, there's ways to get around that sort of thing.

    Separating them, and arresting them is a good basic technique, but it really only works because most people either don't know their rights, or don't have the will to keep their mouth shut.
    I don't think Patsy HAD the will to keep her mouth shut by herself.

    And as for people not knowing their rights, as William Tucker pointed out in "National Review," it's a good thing most people don't know their rights, because if they did, there would be very few convictions.

    We've got our bloody friends on the Warren Court to thank for that!

    I'm doubtful this would have worked on the Rs.
    I'm sure it would have on Patsy. Let her think about what might happen to her in prison, and put some ugly, tattooed gangbanger b***h in there with her to really drive the point home...yeah, she'd sing. Because then it would be "real," you know? Don't forget: she came from the South, where police and prosecutors don't mess around with criminals. As Robin Williams once said, "if you commit rape in Georgia, they'll put you in a cell with someone who will rape you."

    It might have been interesting had they brought in a K9 unit early in the morning. It would have transformed very quickly into a murder case, and the cops reactions might have been very different.

    There isn't much point asking what could have been done. More relevant is the question -who ordered it not done, or who refused authorization to do things.
    And from the mountain comes clarity! Chrishope, if you would check out "Five Blows of the Dragon, Part Two," you'll see that's the next big part of it.

    You've got it exactly right: all of the investigative methods that might well have yielded a solution were shot down from on high. WHY? I'm very interested in WHY.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy23 View Post
    As usual, we have to leave it to you to make some common sense out of this. And had the police secured the crime scene, we may not be having this discussion for the past 15 years. LE should have found that girls body in the first 30 minutes of being at the house. And most likely because they didn't, they have been covering their tracks ever since.
    I do hope you and your new friends will join us tomorrow night, Roy. I'm looking forward to it.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    I'm talking even before they HAD lawyers. The police had plenty enough probable cause to arrest them the minute John R contacted his pilot to flee the state.

    Besides, there's ways to get around that sort of thing.
    If we assume that the Rs (or or both) committed murder, or at least a cover-up, then we have to assume they had some plan for what to do if arrested. e.g. clam up and ask for your lawyer.

    I don't think people like the Rs are eveer really w/o lawyers. They may not have had a formal agreement with a lawyer to represent them in a pending murder investigation, but they had people to contact. One phone call would have assembled a legal team for each of them.


    I don't think Patsy HAD the will to keep her mouth shut by herself.
    I suspect they had already considered the possibility of arrest and what to do.

    And as for people not knowing their rights, as William Tucker pointed out in "National Review," it's a good thing most people don't know their rights, because if they did, there would be very few convictions.

    We've got our bloody friends on the Warren Court to thank for that!
    If you are referring to the Miranda requirement, this does not create any new rights. It merely requires the police to inform people of their rights before interrogation.

    As an aside, we also have the Warren court to thank for Terry stops, which definitely aid the police.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrishope View Post
    If we assume that the Rs (or or both) committed murder, or at least a cover-up, then we have to assume they had some plan for what to do if arrested. e.g. clam up and ask for your lawyer.

    I don't think people like the Rs are eveer really w/o lawyers. They may not have had a formal agreement with a lawyer to represent them in a pending murder investigation, but they had people to contact. One phone call would have assembled a legal team for each of them.




    I suspect they had already considered the possibility of arrest and what to do.

    .
    One phone call- made in the middle of the night, from either home or cell. If only AH had not been so corrupt/spineless. His refusal to ask for a warrant for those phone records were pivotal in blowing this case. By the time records were obtained (were they all obtained anyway?) the Rs had time to finagle around. I believe the cell phone records showed NO cell calls made for the entire month of December. How interesting that Dec was the ONLY month missing.
    Had AH been a REAL DA, we'd know who the Rs called "for advice" after JN died. I'd bet the call(s) was made from the cell phone, not the home.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  13. #13
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    ok this is a little out there but what the heck..
    i found this website..no i dont believe everything it says but it is an interesting read.
    http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/chan...id=3887&page=2

    im going to start researching some of the statements to see if i can find anything thats true. the mind control stuff is a bit much so im not going there but there are some good points just as far as the investigation and some of JR's business dealings.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    I do hope you and your new friends will join us tomorrow night, Roy. I'm looking forward to it.
    Thanks for being condescending again, Dave. What friends? Just cause i join another message board it is a slap in your face or something. I won't be there or listening tonight. Don't have time. Would love a transcript if there is one for later reading. I am IDI on my own terms. Sorry you don't like it. I am tired of much RDI spin when other factors are staring them right in the face. I also get tired of some IDI spin too.

    I am RDI's version of Chrishope. Willing to keep an open mind. Not many people willing to not let their ego get in the way of justice. I suspect many of the real characters in this drama have done and acted the same way. One reason we don't have justice to begin with.
    The discovery of additional matching DNA in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case is important information that raises more questions in the search for JonBenet's killer. The BPD concurs with the Boulder District Attorney's Office that this is a significant finding. The PD has continued to look diligently for the source of the foreign DNA, and to date, we have compared DNA samples taken from more than 200 people. Finding the source of the DNA is key to helping us determine who killed JonBenet

  15. #15
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    It actually also isn't fair for me to single out Chrishope because there are many other RDI's over the years that I have respected as well. Sorry for the exclusion.
    The discovery of additional matching DNA in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case is important information that raises more questions in the search for JonBenet's killer. The BPD concurs with the Boulder District Attorney's Office that this is a significant finding. The PD has continued to look diligently for the source of the foreign DNA, and to date, we have compared DNA samples taken from more than 200 people. Finding the source of the DNA is key to helping us determine who killed JonBenet

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