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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Expanding Dr.Wecht's series of events...

    After listening to the very excellent program on WSRadio this week, I've started to piece together some things in my brain with respect to Dr.Wecht's theory of the sex game gone wrong, strangulation first, whack to the head second theory.

    I needed to try and sort out what we know and how it could fit in with the story.

    Keep in mind, this isn't necessarily my theory, but I wanted to try to grasp hold of it...and it seems to fit.

    Some important things to remember.
    If we are to accept this version of what happened, it means that JR's recollection of events is the one with the most untruths in it. One can assume that PR's lies start somewhere later in the night.

    Okay, we're told that JBR was asleep and JR put her to bed.
    But we were also told that JR read to her, so the inconsistencies begin immediately.

    According to BPD Detective Linda Arndt, John Ramsey said JBR "had last been seen by her father, John Ramsey, at approximately 2200 hours".

    So we have JR being the last to see her alive - therefore, he's in control of the timing, he's calling the shots.

    Now the one item I've always been interested in is the Pineapple.
    For their story to work, JBR has to be asleep - if she's asleep, in their minds, it gets them off the hook. In THEIR minds. So she has to be asleep.
    Except, there's the pineapple - probably innocent enough, but it upsets their story and so it's handballed to an intruder.

    I'm suggesting either -
    1. She ate pineapple before going to bed. (my preferred option, fits with digestion time)
    2. She was indeed asleep, but got up and ate pineapple.

    BR is in bed, PR is in bed, JR is not.
    JR & JBR are in the kitchen.
    They head to the basement for JR's sex game.
    The items purchased (rope/string etc) earlier were not for a planned killing, but for an escalation of the sex games which had recently begun. It's the way this crap works. Start off small, slowly do more until you see what you can get away with.

    Shoplifters work that way, bag snatchers work that way, rapists work that way, murderers work that way, serial killers work that way.
    Even a kid sneaking chocolates from the pantry works that way.
    People doing something they know they shouldn't be doing start small and escalate. Fact.

    So JR has his new "kit", but he's a beginner, hence the snapping off of the paint brush to twist.

    As Dr.Wecht suggested, something went wrong...choking happened too soon, too fast, too PERMANENT. Nobody (sorry to be crude) got their rocks off yet. Suddenly an "innocent" sex game has gone wrong thanks to the amateurish efforts of JR.

    While this is happening, PR realises JR is missing.

    I'm suggesting either -
    1. She had her suspicions something had been going on with JR, either because of the bedwetting/soiling or just general female intuition.
    2. She wondered where he might be and didn't even check on JBR, but was searching for JR.

    She gets to the kitchen. Hears something in the basement, flashlight is in the kitchen, grabs it. Or maybe the flashlight was brought down from upstairs? My wife keeps one by the bed, so you never know. She passes by the basement entry before having to reach the kitchen, so it may have been she heard something before reaching the kitchen.

    Either way, she heads downstairs and stumbles across JR and the now strangled JBR. Well I'm guessing the you know what hits the fan. She would have grabbed JBR and shaken her, as no doubt would JR.

    No response. In their minds, JR has killed her.
    Abuse, crying, trauma sets in. There would be some time before composure is regained to any extent.

    BR is asleep.

    JR, PR and the almost deceased JBR are in the basement, probably outside the room she was found in - after all, it was cold and dingy, not really where you want to (again, sorry for crudeness) pleasure yourself.

    This would explain the urine on the floor. She died there.

    After a period of time - JR/PR realise this will destroy everything they have worked for...their position, their family, their name - their life.

    Plan A begins. Someone else did this.
    It's going to be a half-arsed plan because this was unintended, unplanned, and most importantly, they don't know what the hell they are doing.
    Only way to consider the plan is to reference experiences we have had or have read/seen.

    This explains the terrible over the top and wordy nature of the ransom note. It explains the cliches and it explains the excess of irrelevant and misleading information. It also explains the "quick, think of an amount" nature of the $118,000. People say it wasn't exactly the same as JR's bonus, but if you won $1,145,234...would you say "I won $1Million" or would you think of the exact amount?
    You'd round.

    So the note is written, the scenario is set.
    At some stage JR grabs the flashlight and smacks JBR over the head.
    He is stronger, and more importantly, he has more to lose at this stage.

    PR would be doing the motherly thing, trying to make her baby comfortable in death.

    So all this could quite easily have taken 5+ hours to sort out.
    You don't just kill someone and then go back to bed.
    So neither of them slept.
    JR washed up, PR composed herself and finished setting the scene...maybe she told JR to get out as she wanted some time with her baby.

    Part 2 of the plan commences when the 911 call is made.
    BR is awake but told to go back to bed. He does.

    JR's and PR's separation makes sense after the police arrive. There is a level of contempt, guilt, and partners in crime often 'go their separate ways', so this was a variation on this.

    At some stage, JR perhaps realises something which may have been left behind or simply starts to worry about the scene. Heads downstairs. This is when he is missing for a short time, or rather out of sight of the police for a period of time. He comes up, is more agitated either by what he has had to do or simply due to being down their again and the reality of the situation playing on his mind.

    Their friends are their to give comfort...after all, THEY NEED IT!!!
    PR is in a bad way.
    Over the next few days she is sedated, hysterical etc....and we know why.

    And as with many crimes, the way to deal with accidents is in your mind to deny them *cough* Casey Anthony *cough*.
    It's a very common thing.

    The rest makes sense. The non-cooperation, the muddying the waters...the whole lot. They are trying to preserve what is left of what JR nearly destroyed thanks to his sexual urges.

    PR stood by her man...she had to after she helped him cover up the death of their daughter.

    As much as we're disgusted by both of them, I now lean towards PR only being complicit in the cover-up. Probably not to begin with, she probably wanted JBR saved or taken to the hospital - after all, she seemed quite concerned over time with her visits to the pediatrician. But JR is a businessman, a successful one. He got what he wanted and that was redirected blame and a wife willing to go along with him.

    He doesn't search for the killer, he refers to the killer as a monster etc.
    He would have felt guilt to begin with, but he now has distanced himself from the event and he would need to have done so in order to survive.

  2. #2
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    Even Steve Thomas knew that logically only one in the family could be capable of such a crime. Especially a family with no criminal history. Suggesting a conspiricy between both family member completely discredits RDI. This is desparation. i will take great enjoyment watching RDI change their theory. Carry on.
    The discovery of additional matching DNA in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case is important information that raises more questions in the search for JonBenet's killer. The BPD concurs with the Boulder District Attorney's Office that this is a significant finding. The PD has continued to look diligently for the source of the foreign DNA, and to date, we have compared DNA samples taken from more than 200 people. Finding the source of the DNA is key to helping us determine who killed JonBenet

  3. #3
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    Surely you are kidding?

    I haven't changed my mind, I'm putting forward how things would work if we accept the way Dr.Wecht spelled out how things happened in his opinion.

    I just said it was done by one parent, the "conspiracy" you mention is probably very hard to pull off on your own.

    Anyway, like Science, theories change as evidence evolves or is discovered.
    Has it been evolving for the IDI? I think not.
    IDI is the faith based effort to solve the case.

  4. #4
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    Why is it logical that only one family member is responsible? That is something that is neither logical or illogical, logic has nothing to do with it. What if it was her brothers? It is also "logical" that this was too much for one person to have done alone.
    While I respect ST and his dedication to the case, I have never agreed with Patsy as being the ONLY one responsible. Of course, she could have been the only one responsible for the death, but I do not believe Patsy did it all (killing, staging, RN) alone. The staging was a collaborative effort. I can't be sure who did what (therein lies the problem with the whole case), but I do not believe only one person did it all.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy23 View Post
    Even Steve Thomas knew that logically only one in the family could be capable of such a crime. Especially a family with no criminal history. Suggesting a conspiricy between both family member completely discredits RDI. This is desparation. i will take great enjoyment watching RDI change their theory. Carry on.
    Personally, I think RDI and IDI sides have to cut each other some slack. I can see both sides. There is still very little in this case that makes any sense.

    The Rs do not fit the profile of parents that would perpetrate such a crime on their daughter.

    On the other hand, there is no evidence of an intruder. I am convinced of that after finally understanding that the DNA "evidence" has been dismissed by Dr. Henry Lee.

    We have lots of theories floating around here, and lots of evidence that it is difficult to evaluate.

    The only evidence that is real, to me at least, is the RN. And I think nearly everyone agrees that the handwriting resembles that of PR. So either:

    1) Patsy wrote it
    2) An intruder who just happens to write almost exactly like Patsy wrote it
    3) An intruder purposely mimicked her writing in order to throw suspicion on the Rs

    As I look at those possibilities, choice 1) is by far the most likely scenario. Choice 2) seems very remote.

    Choice 3) is also remote, but is at least plausible.

    So I would say the preponderance of evidence points to someone in the house, with PR involved (at least) in the cover up. But a motive completely eludes me.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtwentz View Post
    Personally, I think RDI and IDI sides have to cut each other some slack. I can see both sides. There is still very little in this case that makes any sense.

    The Rs do not fit the profile of parents that would perpetrate such a crime on their daughter.

    On the other hand, there is no evidence of an intruder. I am convinced of that after finally understanding that the DNA "evidence" has been dismissed by Dr. Henry Lee.

    We have lots of theories floating around here, and lots of evidence that it is difficult to evaluate.

    The only evidence that is real, to me at least, is the RN. And I think nearly everyone agrees that the handwriting resembles that of PR. So either:

    1) Patsy wrote it
    2) An intruder who just happens to write almost exactly like Patsy wrote it
    3) An intruder purposely mimicked her writing in order to throw suspicion on the Rs

    As I look at those possibilities, choice 1) is by far the most likely scenario. Choice 2) seems very remote.

    Choice 3) is also remote, but is at least plausible.

    So I would say the preponderance of evidence points to someone in the house, with PR involved (at least) in the cover up. But a motive completely eludes me.


    Okay, I will bite.

    Henry Lee threw out the possibility of the DNA found in the panties was from an Fruit of a Loom Inspector 12. I know you are not going to admit it but that theory went to hell in a handbasket in 2002 and especially in 2006. Dr. Lee is old old news and we need to move on.

    There is plenty of evidence of an Intruder. Had the police protected the crime scene there would probably be much much more. And here is a question for ya. If LE was so certain that an intruder was not possible why did they let tons of people in the house, clean the house, not properly search the house, and then go away and leave the Ramsey's with an inexperience female officer?

    I don't believe the note looks much like PR's but I can buy she can't be excluded from writing it. The Ramsey or Ramsey lawyers never really needed to challenge evidence such as this. A 100 different document examiners usually give 80 different opinions. I think any three of your options are farfetched but of the three I would say number one as well. The problem is that is not that close and team Ramsey or any Joe Blow attorney would blow this out of the water.

    Motive is pretty important don't you think? Especially when you have two people that you suggest covering for each other. And these people are pillars of society with no background of violence. The only motive that makes any sense is covering for Burke. That is it. That is the only plausible example that these two parents would kill and THEN CONSPIRE a coverup in such a brutal fashion.

    Agh, I know I am wasting my breath on this with you guys. But the great ST and other LE even knew that their could be only one bad egg in that house. The other parent had to be bamboozled by the other. And let me say this--John is the only one who makes sense on committing the crime itself. The Ransom note is a piece of garbage. If it is truly RDI, John wrote the note.
    The discovery of additional matching DNA in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case is important information that raises more questions in the search for JonBenet's killer. The BPD concurs with the Boulder District Attorney's Office that this is a significant finding. The PD has continued to look diligently for the source of the foreign DNA, and to date, we have compared DNA samples taken from more than 200 people. Finding the source of the DNA is key to helping us determine who killed JonBenet

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy23 View Post
    Okay, I will bite.

    There is plenty of evidence of an Intruder. Had the police protected the crime scene there would probably be much much more. And here is a question for ya. If LE was so certain that an intruder was not possible why did they let tons of people in the house, clean the house, not properly search the house, and then go away and leave the Ramsey's with an inexperience female officer?

    I don't believe the note looks much like PR's but I can buy she can't be excluded from writing it. The Ramsey or Ramsey lawyers never really needed to challenge evidence such as this. A 100 different document examiners usually give 80 different opinions. I think any three of your options are farfetched but of the three I would say number one as well. The problem is that is not that close and team Ramsey or any Joe Blow attorney would blow this out of the water.

    Motive is pretty important don't you think? Especially when you have two people that you suggest covering for each other. And these people are pillars of society with no background of violence. The only motive that makes any sense is covering for Burke. That is it. That is the only plausible example that these two parents would kill and THEN CONSPIRE a coverup in such a brutal fashion.

    Agh, I know I am wasting my breath on this with you guys. But the great ST and other LE even knew that their could be only one bad egg in that house. The other parent had to be bamboozled by the other. And let me say this--John is the only one who makes sense on committing the crime itself. The Ransom note is a piece of garbage. If it is truly RDI, John wrote the note.
    1.) There certainly isn't plenty of IDI evidence.
    2.) You must be blind.
    3.) John Ramsey would have lost his public image, and in turn his job, and in turn the life on the high horse that Patsy loved so dear. Were the public and/or his employer to find out that one of the family members in the house had something to with killing his pageant daughter, they would have distanced themselves from him ASAP. Sounds like a plausible motive to me.
    4.) That's an assumption. I.E. "She's already dead, you're either with me or you're not. Do you like the kind of life we live here in Boulder? That's what I thought, now transcribe this RN."

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtwentz View Post
    Personally, I think RDI and IDI sides have to cut each other some slack. I can see both sides. There is still very little in this case that makes any sense.

    The Rs do not fit the profile of parents that would perpetrate such a crime on their daughter.

    On the other hand, there is no evidence of an intruder. I am convinced of that after finally understanding that the DNA "evidence" has been dismissed by Dr. Henry Lee.

    We have lots of theories floating around here, and lots of evidence that it is difficult to evaluate.

    The only evidence that is real, to me at least, is the RN. And I think nearly everyone agrees that the handwriting resembles that of PR. So either:

    1) Patsy wrote it
    2) An intruder who just happens to write almost exactly like Patsy wrote it
    3) An intruder purposely mimicked her writing in order to throw suspicion on the Rs

    As I look at those possibilities, choice 1) is by far the most likely scenario. Choice 2) seems very remote.

    Choice 3) is also remote, but is at least plausible.

    So I would say the preponderance of evidence points to someone in the house, with PR involved (at least) in the cover up. But a motive completely eludes me.
    Quote Originally Posted by jeeps View Post
    1.) There certainly isn't plenty of IDI evidence.
    2.) You must be blind.
    3.) John Ramsey would have lost his public image, and in turn his job, and in turn the life on the high horse that Patsy loved so dear. Were the public and/or his employer to find out that one of the family members in the house had something to with killing his pageant daughter, they would have distanced themselves from him ASAP. Sounds like a plausible motive to me.
    4.) That's an assumption. I.E. "She's already dead, you're either with me or you're not. Do you like the kind of life we live here in Boulder? That's what I thought, now transcribe this RN."
    His employer would have fired him because someone in his house killed JBR?

    Give me a break. You might want to research John's relationship to Access Graphics.
    The discovery of additional matching DNA in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case is important information that raises more questions in the search for JonBenet's killer. The BPD concurs with the Boulder District Attorney's Office that this is a significant finding. The PD has continued to look diligently for the source of the foreign DNA, and to date, we have compared DNA samples taken from more than 200 people. Finding the source of the DNA is key to helping us determine who killed JonBenet

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderllama View Post
    After listening to the very excellent program on WSRadio this week, I've started to piece together some things in my brain with respect to Dr.Wecht's theory of the sex game gone wrong, strangulation first, whack to the head second theory.

    I needed to try and sort out what we know and how it could fit in with the story.

    Keep in mind, this isn't necessarily my theory, but I wanted to try to grasp hold of it...and it seems to fit.

    Some important things to remember.
    If we are to accept this version of what happened, it means that JR's recollection of events is the one with the most untruths in it. One can assume that PR's lies start somewhere later in the night.

    Okay, we're told that JBR was asleep and JR put her to bed.
    But we were also told that JR read to her, so the inconsistencies begin immediately.

    According to BPD Detective Linda Arndt, John Ramsey said JBR "had last been seen by her father, John Ramsey, at approximately 2200 hours".

    So we have JR being the last to see her alive - therefore, he's in control of the timing, he's calling the shots.

    Now the one item I've always been interested in is the Pineapple.
    For their story to work, JBR has to be asleep - if she's asleep, in their minds, it gets them off the hook. In THEIR minds. So she has to be asleep.
    Except, there's the pineapple - probably innocent enough, but it upsets their story and so it's handballed to an intruder.

    I'm suggesting either -
    1. She ate pineapple before going to bed. (my preferred option, fits with digestion time)
    2. She was indeed asleep, but got up and ate pineapple.

    BR is in bed, PR is in bed, JR is not.
    JR & JBR are in the kitchen.
    They head to the basement for JR's sex game.
    The items purchased (rope/string etc) earlier were not for a planned killing, but for an escalation of the sex games which had recently begun. It's the way this crap works. Start off small, slowly do more until you see what you can get away with.

    Shoplifters work that way, bag snatchers work that way, rapists work that way, murderers work that way, serial killers work that way.
    Even a kid sneaking chocolates from the pantry works that way.
    People doing something they know they shouldn't be doing start small and escalate. Fact.

    So JR has his new "kit", but he's a beginner, hence the snapping off of the paint brush to twist.

    As Dr.Wecht suggested, something went wrong...choking happened too soon, too fast, too PERMANENT. Nobody (sorry to be crude) got their rocks off yet. Suddenly an "innocent" sex game has gone wrong thanks to the amateurish efforts of JR.

    While this is happening, PR realises JR is missing.

    I'm suggesting either -
    1. She had her suspicions something had been going on with JR, either because of the bedwetting/soiling or just general female intuition.
    2. She wondered where he might be and didn't even check on JBR, but was searching for JR.

    She gets to the kitchen. Hears something in the basement, flashlight is in the kitchen, grabs it. Or maybe the flashlight was brought down from upstairs? My wife keeps one by the bed, so you never know. She passes by the basement entry before having to reach the kitchen, so it may have been she heard something before reaching the kitchen.

    Either way, she heads downstairs and stumbles across JR and the now strangled JBR. Well I'm guessing the you know what hits the fan. She would have grabbed JBR and shaken her, as no doubt would JR.

    No response. In their minds, JR has killed her.
    Abuse, crying, trauma sets in. There would be some time before composure is regained to any extent.

    BR is asleep.

    JR, PR and the almost deceased JBR are in the basement, probably outside the room she was found in - after all, it was cold and dingy, not really where you want to (again, sorry for crudeness) pleasure yourself.

    This would explain the urine on the floor. She died there.

    After a period of time - JR/PR realise this will destroy everything they have worked for...their position, their family, their name - their life.

    Plan A begins. Someone else did this.
    It's going to be a half-arsed plan because this was unintended, unplanned, and most importantly, they don't know what the hell they are doing.
    Only way to consider the plan is to reference experiences we have had or have read/seen.

    This explains the terrible over the top and wordy nature of the ransom note. It explains the cliches and it explains the excess of irrelevant and misleading information. It also explains the "quick, think of an amount" nature of the $118,000. People say it wasn't exactly the same as JR's bonus, but if you won $1,145,234...would you say "I won $1Million" or would you think of the exact amount?
    You'd round.

    So the note is written, the scenario is set.
    At some stage JR grabs the flashlight and smacks JBR over the head.
    He is stronger, and more importantly, he has more to lose at this stage.

    PR would be doing the motherly thing, trying to make her baby comfortable in death.

    So all this could quite easily have taken 5+ hours to sort out.
    You don't just kill someone and then go back to bed.
    So neither of them slept.
    JR washed up, PR composed herself and finished setting the scene...maybe she told JR to get out as she wanted some time with her baby.

    Part 2 of the plan commences when the 911 call is made.
    BR is awake but told to go back to bed. He does.

    JR's and PR's separation makes sense after the police arrive. There is a level of contempt, guilt, and partners in crime often 'go their separate ways', so this was a variation on this.

    At some stage, JR perhaps realises something which may have been left behind or simply starts to worry about the scene. Heads downstairs. This is when he is missing for a short time, or rather out of sight of the police for a period of time. He comes up, is more agitated either by what he has had to do or simply due to being down their again and the reality of the situation playing on his mind.

    Their friends are their to give comfort...after all, THEY NEED IT!!!
    PR is in a bad way.
    Over the next few days she is sedated, hysterical etc....and we know why.

    And as with many crimes, the way to deal with accidents is in your mind to deny them *cough* Casey Anthony *cough*.
    It's a very common thing.

    The rest makes sense. The non-cooperation, the muddying the waters...the whole lot. They are trying to preserve what is left of what JR nearly destroyed thanks to his sexual urges.

    PR stood by her man...she had to after she helped him cover up the death of their daughter.

    As much as we're disgusted by both of them, I now lean towards PR only being complicit in the cover-up. Probably not to begin with, she probably wanted JBR saved or taken to the hospital - after all, she seemed quite concerned over time with her visits to the pediatrician. But JR is a businessman, a successful one. He got what he wanted and that was redirected blame and a wife willing to go along with him.

    He doesn't search for the killer, he refers to the killer as a monster etc.
    He would have felt guilt to begin with, but he now has distanced himself from the event and he would need to have done so in order to survive.
    wonderllama,
    It might have happened that way. One thing to consider is that EA is normally a solo activity engaged in, predominatedly by males. e.g. David Carradine who allegedly died from Auto Erotic Asphyxiation in 2009.

    The actual ligature and paintbrush, in place, as constructed, could never function as an EA device. The paintbrush handle is too close to the neck to turn, JonBenet's hair is embedded into the knotting, so if the handle had been turned, JonBenet's hair would have been ripped out at the roots. Also the ligature passes over JonBenet's necklace which showed no sign of constricting JonBenet's neck. The knotting employed is crude and offers no room for tightening or releasing.

    JonBenet appears to have been relocated to the wine-cellar, for possibly three main reasons:

    1. Mask the primary crime-scene.
    2. Hide prior molestation
    3. Fabricate a staged crime-scene

    If you accept this then consider that reasons 2, & 3 could have been accomplished upstairs using JonBenet's bedroom. That is the same longjohns and underwear along with her gap-top, and possibly JonBenet lying beneath her white or other blanket seems to satisfy 2 & 3?

    The addition of the paintbrush, ligature, restraints and duct-tape seems to be ad-hoc, unplanned. Particularly so if it was an intruder that killed JonBenet, since apart from these things being unnecessary, they require prior knowledge of their location.

    The longer you think about the case some anomalies pop up. Such as, why bother placing JonBenet in the wine-cellar if, as should have happened, she would have been discovered on the first house search, the house sealed and the Ramsey's arrested on the spot?

    Does everyone think it was 50/50 gamble that paid off. JonBenet was not found, Burke was decanted, John was free to roam at will. At one point he and Patsy intended to flee interstate!

    So since the acute molestation was always going to be discovered at autopsy, cleaning up JonBenet, redressing her in size-12's and longjohns was known in advance to be a temporary measure?

    The one thing that is unknown is the location of the primary crime-scene. Is it really her bedroom, if so why bother relocating her to the wine-cellar, where discovery is inevitable, and make up story that makes the bedroom the primary crime-scene. This part seems inconsistent to me.

    Could it be that JAR's room was involved or some other room. This might explain some of JAR's stuff being found in the basement along with JonBenet's photographs. Why would anyone want to distance themselves from JonBenet's photographs, not unless the photographs suggest some link with her death?



    .

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy23 View Post
    His employer would have fired him because someone in his house killed JBR?

    Give me a break. You might want to research John's relationship to Access Graphics.
    A high ranking official involved in molestation and homicide--be it him, PR, or BR? They'd have no problem continuing their business relationship, according to you Roy. LM, that is.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy23 View Post
    I don't believe the note looks much like PR's .
    I agree; I believe it looks like JRs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy23 View Post
    ....And these people are pillars of society with no background of violence....The only motive that makes any sense is covering for Burke. That is it. That is the only plausible example that these two parents would kill and THEN CONSPIRE a coverup in such a brutal fashion..
    'Pillars of society' are not immune from doing any wrong - in fact it is often the case that many in power get themselves into trouble one way or another because of the opportunities they are afforded, and their misconceptions that they are above the law; there are many a scandal in the headlines everyday about so-called 'pillars of society': politicians, preachers, congressmen, teachers, priests... As for no background of violence, there is a first time for everything. As for the ONLY motive that make sense for them to conspire and cover up being that it was to protect Burke, well you're not considering all the possibilities then. Here's some for instance: If JR has just sexually assaulted and murdered JBR (accident or not), how does he explain this to PR? It could still be to protect Burke, if JR blames him for the situation and tells PR that they have to do something to make it look like someone else did it. He could say it was an accident, that something happened when he went to check on JBR to see if she needed a pottybreak, after PR had already gone to bed, and that it would look like child abuse so they need to do something to make it look like a kidnapper....it could even be the other scenario people state where they are both guilty, if he is caught with JBR, and PR accidentally lashed out, so they both have to make it look like someone else did it....

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy23 View Post
    Agh, I know I am wasting my breath on this with you guys. But the great ST and other LE even knew that their could be only one bad egg in that house. The other parent had to be bamboozled by the other. And let me say this--John is the only one who makes sense on committing the crime itself. The Ransom note is a piece of garbage. If it is truly RDI, John wrote the note.
    Um, actually you are not wasting your breath on this one Roy....I think this one is probably the most likely scenario, if RDI did it, that is. I know most RDI think PR wrote the note, but as of late, I have come to believe that JR wrote it - and he did in fact bamboozle the other parent...which is why i think that is why she often looked to him when they were in interviews, for the correct answers to give, what the story was, and to make sure she was saying the right things. This is why HE was not angry, but just had to move on when it came to finding the killer, etc. A father not guilty of sexually assaulting and murdering his daughter IS angry, and does NOT want to move on from it.... I believe that if it is truly RDI, John probably did write the note.

  12. #12
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    How many murders will get away with it because people cannot grasp the idea that there is not AWAYS a motive? Sometimes things get carried away and death results when none was intended. But the "risky" activity that caused the death is illegal in its own right?

    That'd do the trick for me on this case.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whaleshark View Post
    I agree; I believe it looks like JRs.



    'Pillars of society' are not immune from doing any wrong - in fact it is often the case that many in power get themselves into trouble one way or another because of the opportunities they are afforded, and their misconceptions that they are above the law; there are many a scandal in the headlines everyday about so-called 'pillars of society': politicians, preachers, congressmen, teachers, priests... As for no background of violence, there is a first time for everything. As for the ONLY motive that make sense for them to conspire and cover up being that it was to protect Burke, well you're not considering all the possibilities then. Here's some for instance: If JR has just sexually assaulted and murdered JBR (accident or not), how does he explain this to PR? It could still be to protect Burke, if JR blames him for the situation and tells PR that they have to do something to make it look like someone else did it. He could say it was an accident, that something happened when he went to check on JBR to see if she needed a pottybreak, after PR had already gone to bed, and that it would look like child abuse so they need to do something to make it look like a kidnapper....it could even be the other scenario people state where they are both guilty, if he is caught with JBR, and PR accidentally lashed out, so they both have to make it look like someone else did it....



    Um, actually you are not wasting your breath on this one Roy....I think this one is probably the most likely scenario, if RDI did it, that is. I know most RDI think PR wrote the note, but as of late, I have come to believe that JR wrote it - and he did in fact bamboozle the other parent...which is why i think that is why she often looked to him when they were in interviews, for the correct answers to give, what the story was, and to make sure she was saying the right things. This is why HE was not angry, but just had to move on when it came to finding the killer, etc. A father not guilty of sexually assaulting and murdering his daughter IS angry, and does NOT want to move on from it.... I believe that if it is truly RDI, John probably did write the note.

    Interesting. I am not gonna buy it but this is probably the most sensible RDI theory I have encountered yet.
    The discovery of additional matching DNA in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case is important information that raises more questions in the search for JonBenet's killer. The BPD concurs with the Boulder District Attorney's Office that this is a significant finding. The PD has continued to look diligently for the source of the foreign DNA, and to date, we have compared DNA samples taken from more than 200 people. Finding the source of the DNA is key to helping us determine who killed JonBenet

  14. #14
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    You can't throw out the actual evidence to cater to a motive you deem logical.

    Patsy's the one whose handwriting is consistent with the note for 24 letters of the alphabet, not to mention writing-style, spacing, writing habits like indention, etc. She's the verbose, over-the-top creative writer. She's the one who couldn't be eliminated as the writer of the ransom note. It was her pad, her pen, and she's the one who lied to LE so badly, it's blatantly obvious throughout her interviews, numerous times through the years.

    She also would have been the one, as mother, caretaker, homemaker, etc., to have noticed blood in her little girl's panties. Patsy is the one who took JB to the doctor, who called Dr. Beuf's office three times in one hour after it closed on Dec. 17th, yet couldn't remember why la de dah.

    Until the person who was molesting JonBenet is revealed, I have no idea which one of those in the home was involved in her death.

    Also, a theory has to account for JonBenet's blood on her pillowcase at the foot of her bed.

    Dr. Wecht's theory also has flaws. Why would any adult play sex games using a ligature on a child's neck without padding it? Bruising would tell the tale. He'd be found out immediately if she didn't die, with a risk of prison anyway if he was identified as the perv. So that's a problem with the theory this wasn't intentional but a sex game gone badly, unless Dr. Wecht believes Burke did it. Burke was too young to think things like that through, of course.

    But Burke also couldn't carry JonBenet's limp body downstairs if she was attacked first upstairs--the blood on her pillowcase indicates that. If it was from mucous, as the question by Haney to Patsy if JB had nosebleeds indicates, JB also had blood-tinged mucous on her face/sleeve, so that would put the head blow first in/near her bedroom, as the elements of the garroting and her death from strangulation took place in the basement, finally, according to the evidence.

    I don't know if only one or all of them had some hand in this; as DeeDee said, motive may not be as cut and dried as a clearly pre-meditated intention. Things happen, people react. Life can get very messy, as the Ramseys well know, IMO.

    I look to Casey Anthony's family as a perfect example of how far parents will go under the worst of circumstances to mitigate the consequences of a deadly sequence of events.

    It worked for the Anthonys also, didn't it?
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    wonderllama,
    It might have happened that way. One thing to consider is that EA is normally a solo activity engaged in, predominatedly by males. e.g. David Carradine who allegedly died from Auto Erotic Asphyxiation in 2009.

    The actual ligature and paintbrush, in place, as constructed, could never function as an EA device. The paintbrush handle is too close to the neck to turn, JonBenet's hair is embedded into the knotting, so if the handle had been turned, JonBenet's hair would have been ripped out at the roots. Also the ligature passes over JonBenet's necklace which showed no sign of constricting JonBenet's neck. The knotting employed is crude and offers no room for tightening or releasing.

    JonBenet appears to have been relocated to the wine-cellar, for possibly three main reasons:

    1. Mask the primary crime-scene.
    2. Hide prior molestation
    3. Fabricate a staged crime-scene

    If you accept this then consider that reasons 2, & 3 could have been accomplished upstairs using JonBenet's bedroom. That is the same longjohns and underwear along with her gap-top, and possibly JonBenet lying beneath her white or other blanket seems to satisfy 2 & 3?

    The addition of the paintbrush, ligature, restraints and duct-tape seems to be ad-hoc, unplanned. Particularly so if it was an intruder that killed JonBenet, since apart from these things being unnecessary, they require prior knowledge of their location.

    The longer you think about the case some anomalies pop up. Such as, why bother placing JonBenet in the wine-cellar if, as should have happened, she would have been discovered on the first house search, the house sealed and the Ramsey's arrested on the spot?

    Does everyone think it was 50/50 gamble that paid off. JonBenet was not found, Burke was decanted, John was free to roam at will. At one point he and Patsy intended to flee interstate!

    So since the acute molestation was always going to be discovered at autopsy, cleaning up JonBenet, redressing her in size-12's and longjohns was known in advance to be a temporary measure?

    The one thing that is unknown is the location of the primary crime-scene. Is it really her bedroom, if so why bother relocating her to the wine-cellar, where discovery is inevitable, and make up story that makes the bedroom the primary crime-scene. This part seems inconsistent to me.

    Could it be that JAR's room was involved or some other room. This might explain some of JAR's stuff being found in the basement along with JonBenet's photographs. Why would anyone want to distance themselves from JonBenet's photographs, not unless the photographs suggest some link with her death?



    .
    Excellent points, UK.

    One thing to consider: I believe anyone would have expected LE to find the body PDQ. I think that was fully the intention, part of the plan. That's why the couples were called over, as a buffer between the Ramseys and LE once the body was found, IMO. Patsy could pull her fainting, hysterical act, JR and the friends could focus on her and in fear, whisk his family to the airport and away from interrogation by LE, into the arms of loving family...and powerful lawyers.

    Whether the BPD not finding the body helped them, I don't know, but I think it didn't hurt in the long run, because the Ramseys were able to thoroughly contaminate the crime scene. It was a pure fluke, not finding the body, and whoever reflexively turned the "lock" on the cellar door sealed it from suspicion while everyone was reacting to a kidnapping. You can't lock a door like that from inside, now can you? And it was too high for the children to reach.

    In fact, I've always wondered if securing the door like that was just in case Burke got involved in the "hunt" somehow. Burke certainly didn't turn that block, did he?
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