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Thread: The message on the door

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexiintoronto View Post
    I think her knowing that MS was about to die was the breaking point which led her to take her life. There are likely a myriad of underlying reasons.

    IMO, her last words were to JS, asking him to protect her sister.
    so who exactly did she 'save' then, and like jenny asked, why would her sister need to be protected? why wouldn't she have written a note or letter or email to her family before she died to ask them to protect her younger sister?

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    Protect her sister from what? What did the sister need to be protected from?
    And by the time of the supposed suicide, the sister has already left, so it doesn't look like she was in any danger anyway.
    We might be going around in circles and getting off the topic of the door.

    My theory is that all the kids were there, MS and older son were doing something that resulted in the accident. RZ and her younger sister lied to police to protect the older son in saying he wasn't there.

    she saved him, can you save her = JS: my sister lied to protect your older son about being involved in the accident, please protect her from prosecution/media glare/blame etc (if the truth comes out that she lied about MS being alone, that she may have been present/involved in the accident...)

    I'm only guessing. And I might not be clear because it's 4:30 am and I'm awake, I have to get up in 3 hours

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  5. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosemary View Post
    so who exactly did she 'save' then, and like jenny asked, why would her sister need to be protected? why wouldn't she have written a note or letter or email to her family before she died to ask them to protect her younger sister?
    RZ's sister saved JS older son in my theory (which I regret bringing up lol!! )

    She knew a note, or email with a clear explanation would blow the cover off the secret that all the kids were present at the accident. MS and older son were possibly doing a trick off the bannister, so she had to write the message cryptically, but very clearly, as to not implicate the other children. RZ may have thought with MS about to die, police would investigate further.

    Disclaimer: I am guessing

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  7. #104
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    sorry, I'm probably not being concise because I'm tired!!

  8. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexiintoronto View Post
    We might be going around in circles and getting off the topic of the door.

    My theory is that all the kids were there, MS and older son were doing something that resulted in the accident. RZ and her younger sister lied to police to protect the older son in saying he wasn't there.

    she saved him, can you save her = JS: my sister lied to protect your older son about being involved in the accident, please protect her from prosecution/media glare/blame etc (if the truth comes out that she lied about MS being alone, that she may have been present/involved in the accident...)

    I'm only guessing. And I might not be clear because it's 4:30 am and I'm awake, I have to get up in 3 hours
    Lexiintoronto, I totally understand your theory. It's a new and interesting way of looking at things. Definitely something I hadn't considered before. The suicide theory is definitely not as popular here as the murder theory, but that makes it even more important to consider the possibility with an open mind, we at Websleuths don't want to make the error of only trying to get the facts to fit a murder scenario, thereby overlooking the way they might fit a suicide scenario. I like that you are exploring possibilities.

    I'd love to figure out what time JS's teens left that morning. It would answer that part of the mystery of who was there.

    I definitely think the message was deliberately cryptic to protect information, OR to look more menacing. It had to be some kind of code, or an intentional red herring to throw off the scent down the right trial.

    If the person writing it had wanted it to be clear to everyone, they'd have made it so. It was deliberately oblique.… but why?

    Your theory is one possibility. And it's new and refreshing. Thanks!

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  10. #106
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    The improbability of that theory is that it would have to involve a big giant lie-and not just on the part of RN. And yet under that theory we are still suppose believe that her death is a suicide.
    Just my opinion

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  12. #107
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    I've heard it rumored that the message has been painted over already and the door rehung. Is that just web innuendo or a fact? Anyone know?
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  14. #108
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    Looking at it from the "murder camp" point of view, I thought the message could have been sarcastic.

    Maybe someone on the DS side of the family was not too convinced of the RZ version of Max's accident, given the staged appearance of the scene--especially if they knew that the doctor thought Max had been suffocated, or if the doctors said there's no way he was speaking ("Ocean") after that fall. Maybe they thought it was either murder (suffocation) or negligence on the part of RZ, covered up to look like an unavoidable accident with a convenient deathbed statement from Max that the only responsible party was "Ocean".

    Maybe upon being confronted with this suspicion, JS said, "She didn't KILL him--she SAVED him" or some variation thereof. Maybe...whoever...had an angry reaction to this, particularly in light of the fact that Max was clearly going to be a vegetable at the very least.

    Maybe RZ was killed by...whoever, and the message meant, "Oh, you think she 'saved' him? Well, maybe you can 'save' her...but she's not gonna be breathing for a while, so she'll be a vegetable too."

    Crazy, I know. Just brainstorming here.

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94


  15. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZlawyer View Post
    Looking at it from the "murder camp" point of view, I thought the message could have been sarcastic.

    Maybe someone on the DS side of the family was not too convinced of the RZ version of Max's accident, given the staged appearance of the scene--especially if they knew that the doctor thought Max had been suffocated, or if the doctors said there's no way he was speaking ("Ocean") after that fall. Maybe they thought it was either murder (suffocation) or negligence on the part of RZ, covered up to look like an unavoidable accident with a convenient deathbed statement from Max that the only responsible party was "Ocean".

    Maybe upon being confronted with this suspicion, JS said, "She didn't KILL him--she SAVED him" or some variation thereof. Maybe...whoever...had an angry reaction to this, particularly in light of the fact that Max was clearly going to be a vegetable at the very least.

    Maybe RZ was killed by...whoever, and the message meant, "Oh, you think she 'saved' him? Well, maybe you can 'save' her...but she's not gonna be breathing for a while, so she'll be a vegetable too."

    Crazy, I know. Just brainstorming here.
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  17. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by NocturnalLady View Post
    I read an article written by Anne Bremner today that I can't find to link to for the life of me! Anyhow in the article I noticed that AB quotes the "suicide note" as reading: She save him, can you save her? It may just have been a typo to leave off the "ed" at the end of the first "saved" BUT the possibility occurred to me that perhaps Rebecca spoke English as a second language and if so maybe she made the common mistake of misusing verbs and sometimes saying the present tense when she meant the past or future. If that is the case and Anne Bremner's article is correct then I read the "suicide note" as having a very mocking tone. As in making fun of Rebecca for not speaking English correctly.

    Even when I first read the wording of the "suicide note" I wondered if this was a reference to something Jonah possibly had said to Dina. If I heard from my ex-husband with whom I had had an ugly divorce that he felt that his new girlfriend had "saved him" - well that comment might rankle! If I then lost my only child in a horrific way while under the new girlfriend's watch and I then murdered her to get revenge on my ex-husband...well "She save him, can you save her?" might be just what I would say out of spite.

    Found it: http://womenincrimeink.blogspot.com/...s-justice.html
    Exact quote:

    Written on a door in paint was the phrase “She save him, can you save her.” But the autopsy cites the language as “She saved him, can you save her. “


    POSTED BY CATHY SCOTT AT 8:38 AM
    LABELS: ANNE BREMNER, ANNE BREMNER'S POSTS, CALIFORNIA, CORONADO ISLAND, JONAH SCHACKNAI, REBECCA ZAHUA, SUICIDE

    I would like to see it confirmed that this was written by Anne Bremner.
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  19. #111
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    I can see it more as suicide if the message on the door was written in imperfect English. Plus, I can probably now see why Rebecca would have chosen to kill herself in such a horrible manner. She probably felt angry and hurt that Jonah and his family as well as the LE suspected that she had intentionally hurt Max by suffocating him, even though it was later proven to be an accident after Max's autopsy.

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  21. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnieRN View Post
    Exact quote:

    Written on a door in paint was the phrase “She save him, can you save her.” But the autopsy cites the language as “She saved him, can you save her. “


    POSTED BY CATHY SCOTT AT 8:38 AM
    LABELS: ANNE BREMNER, ANNE BREMNER'S POSTS, CALIFORNIA, CORONADO ISLAND, JONAH SCHACKNAI, REBECCA ZAHUA, SUICIDE

    I would like to see it confirmed that this was written by Anne Bremner.
    I believe that the article shows Anne Bremner as the author.

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  23. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexiintoronto View Post
    does JS have an older son? That I'm speculating may have been at MS's accident? And RZ's younger sister was present as well, not in the shower as reported?

    she saved him, can you save her = my younger sister lied to police and said your older son was not involved or present at MS's accident. Can you please see that nothing happens to her if the truth comes out?

    she (RZ's younger sister) saved him (JS's older son who I am speculating was present at MS's accident. Saved him by not telling police what his involvement might be eg: doing a trick on the staircase.)

    Can you (JS) save her (RZ's younger sister. Save, as in protect her if the truth comes out that RZ's younger sister and JS's older son - if he does in fact have one - had some part in the accident)
    I've had the same thoughts, but instead of son, I was thinking of GS(his first daughter) may have been teasing him or shoving him from the hallway prior to the stairs and he was trying to run away from her and ran into the railing and over it. Early comments were from a neighbor who knew GS said she was there and left before the paramedics came. I could see JS wanting her OUT (and probably RZ as well) of the sceen as quickly as possible, due to DS's type of temperament and their contentious divorce.

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  25. #114
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    NBC Today Show with Anne the sister Mary and the Brother In Law..reported the message on September 30th as

    "She saved him, can he save her."

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  27. #115
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    If it was suicide...
    With all Jonah's legal troubles.... being sued in a class action suit.. that was just settled today... did he try suicide at one point and RZ saved him.... but now he can't save her?

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  29. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Holmes View Post
    If it was suicide...
    With all Jonah's legal troubles.... being sued in a class action suit.. that was just settled today... did he try suicide at one point and RZ saved him.... but now he can't save her?
    BBM I'm certainly not an expert on these things, but I don't think narcissists committing suicide is a common thing. Maybe someone who (unfortunately) has information on this can weigh in on that presumption of mine.
    All of my posts are simply thought-starters and are not meant to be implications in any way, shape or form.

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  31. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by justice be served View Post
    BBM I'm certainly not an expert on these things, but I don't think narcissists committing suicide is a common thing. Maybe someone who (unfortunately) has information on this can weigh in on that presumption of mine.
    Not at all common as I posted in the Case for Murder thread.

    As far as theories about the writing on the door, I think AZLawyer's theory is best and well stated.

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  33. #118
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    The class action lawsuit would have added another level of stress to JS, making him in my mind even more likely to snap and kill RZ when your business is threatened and now you are about to lose your son?

    It was interesting to note that in the JS address to shareholders he spoke often in the third person.... when speaking about the accident.. " it does make one introspective" ... and then when talking about the future... " I will be in my office..."

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  35. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by time View Post
    Not at all common as I posted in the Case for Murder thread.

    As far as theories about the writing on the door, I think AZLawyer's theory is best and well stated.
    Covering a murder to look like suicide or embelishing a murder to make it look like someone other than JONAH did it. This is still my top theory and the reason being is the tying up. PROVE to me this woman KNEW how to tie herself up like that... even if you can show me a website that she went to and learned it that night...or that her and JS had this kind of sex... but they need to back this up.... or suicide does NOT WASH.

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  37. #120
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    Would JS or his lawyer allow JS to even admit that he had that kind of personal relationship with RZ? It could actually make him a suspect!!

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  39. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by justice be served View Post
    BBM I'm certainly not an expert on these things, but I don't think narcissists committing suicide is a common thing. Maybe someone who (unfortunately) has information on this can weigh in on that presumption of mine.
    We have zero evidence that JS has ever tried to commit suicide and frankly I agree with you that is an extremely far fetched idea to begin with.
    Just my opinion

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  41. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Holmes View Post
    Covering a murder to look like suicide or embelishing a murder to make it look like someone other than JONAH did it. This is still my top theory and the reason being is the tying up. PROVE to me this woman KNEW how to tie herself up like that... even if you can show me a website that she went to and learned it that night...or that her and JS had this kind of sex... but they need to back this up.... or suicide does NOT WASH.
    I agree with a lot of what you said. However, the message (to me) makes it look like someone other than Jonah, since I think the "he' is Jonah (unless the message is just truly meaningless) and Jonah wouldn't refer to himself in the third person anymore than Rebecca would. However, I think the bindings could indicate someone WAS trying to make it look like Jonah, Adam (since he is the only other male around), or a random maniac (although we don't have enough information to indicate that one way or the other). Maybe any staging was done so that it definitely looked like a male did this?

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  43. #123
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    I remember reading that JS older son was not there, as he was at chess camp. However, GS was still in town Monday morning. Unclear what time she left town on Monday morning.......I would be surprised if a teen was scheduled for a 6 am flight, as most teens want to sleep in. And why would MS be up at 430-5 am to ride along with JS /GS to the airport, as you have to be there 90 min pre flight - unless private plane then could show up at a bit later.

    I've always thought the message had sarcastic overtones. So, that would point towards DS team vs. AS if acted alone to hurt JS vs. Hired hit by Big Pharm vs. JS - if he wanted to throw everyone off and play the pity card. Even works, if RZ upset that the family blaming her for MS death and its suicide - although its really looking like murder these days..... JS packing clothes Monday night then lack of communication to RZ on Tuesday suggesting anger, Woman seen at manson at 10 pm, Twin sister text at 10:45 pm - she just wanted to see if RZ around..., Woman screaming for help at 11:30 PM, JS "missing" midnight call -deleted!, RZ found naked/ bound with sailor knots, AS TEXT(rather than call) to JS re "suicide", JS lack of reaction to text -does not call AS stat or return home, JS/DS air-tight alibies were based on their word, not LE checking out their actions/cell pings, ED MD false belief regarding MS accident during that week. You tie it all togather - looks like murder.

    Shame on the LE. RZ family /attorney should demand to be present when any cell phone examination performed. In the mean time, cell should be in 3rd party to prevent further loss of evidence. The LE closed the case, so no need to keep the cell. In addition, RZ computer, clothing, etc should be returned to the family immediately.
    Last edited by curiousjo; 09-30-2011 at 08:22 PM.

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  45. #124
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    deanna82437 is offline The dead can't cry out for justice; it is a duty of the living to do so for them
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  47. #125
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    Snipped Quote: "http://www.websleuths.com/forums/att...chmentid=18983"

    Great find Deana82437 regarding JS signature (right under out nose):
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    JS writes in block letters! He has a unique signature - its not common to sign in block letters. The A is different. S is not defined.

    So, door message in block letters. Wonder what the A in SAVE(D) looked like? Not to mention the S, H.

    Coincidence or not.........
    Last edited by curiousjo; 10-02-2011 at 11:59 AM.

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