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Thread: The Rope and the knots

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenpalm View Post
    I don't have a link, but maybe someone else does, didn't we hear from LE that there was NO evidence of a search for knot tying information on the computers that were seized in the search warrants? Am I crazy? I'll go look for this…
    Quote Originally Posted by elementry View Post
    No word that I can recall on anything that might have been gleaned from the computers. Taking them into custody though has prevented anyone else from seeing what's within them. Do they just stay locked away forever on some dusty shelf somewhere? Maybe LE mistakenly erased them like it's alleged they painted over the message and possibly compromised RZ's cell phone message memory.

    seems there could be some stinky hinky here with SD LE......a shame they didn't do a better job from the get-go and thus prevent this mire of doubt to fester and leave this vague stink......
    I got it from SunnieRN:
    Quote Originally Posted by SunnieRN View Post
    The knots are yet another piece of the puzzle that begs for further investigation. There were no computer searches on suicide or knot tying. There were no books found in the room that taught how to tie knots. Where did she learn them?
    But she doesn't link it. Sunnie, I'm going to guess that you made that statement out of deduction. If LE had found evidence for searches on knot tying on her computer, surely they'd have told us, as that would have been extremely compelling evidence of suicide. The absence of them telling us implies that they didn't find any such searches, but… maybe they didn't look at the computers. It took them a month to turn her cell phone on, and even then they couldn't figure out how to examine it forensically. (my husband served as a juror on a murder trial… they had a cell phone expert examine the phones)

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  3. #77
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    Illustration of hanging with dimensions of rope, Rebecca, and Adam. Claims Adam could have cut Rebecca down easily without the table.

    https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/f4x6h

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  5. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by time View Post
    Illustration of hanging with dimensions of rope, Rebecca, and Adam. Claims Adam could have cut Rebecca down easily without the table.

    https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/f4x6h
    Thanks for the diagram. I mentioned in another thread, that I assumed Adam pulled the table under Rebecca's feet.

    How does LE know that she was exactly 26.2 inches off the ground? Once the rope was cut, the stretching from her weight would spring back. It seems it would be hard to tell how far her feet were off the ground if you didn't measure before cutting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenpalm View Post
    Thanks for the diagram. I mentioned in another thread, that I assumed Adam pulled the table under Rebecca's feet.

    How does LE know that she was exactly 26.2 inches off the ground? Once the rope was cut, the stretching from her weight would spring back. It seems it would be hard to tell how far her feet were off the ground if you didn't measure before cutting.

    Agree, totally! And, since SDSO didn't say they did or could match up the cut ends of that rope, it could have been any length.

    [In some source that I have lost now and can't validate, it was also claimed that the end of each piece of rope was taped off (did anyone else read this?). If so, I can't fathom someone committing suicide would do this.]

    SDSO said that Adam broke the leg of the table while pulling it over to be able to cut her down. Possible he did and then decided he could actually reach her, but I'm more likely to believe it could have eyeballed it.

    The problem I'm having with the diagram is it says the rope was cut at neck level, leaving 10 inches of rope dangling. [Is that the correct length of rope still on her neck, evidence in photos?]

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  9. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenpalm View Post
    Thanks for the diagram. I mentioned in another thread, that I assumed Adam pulled the table under Rebecca's feet.

    How does LE know that she was exactly 26.2 inches off the ground? Once the rope was cut, the stretching from her weight would spring back. It seems it would be hard to tell how far her feet were off the ground if you didn't measure before cutting.
    Since they didn't see her hanging (and nobody else did except for AS) I presume they estimated it by adding her height to the length of the rope hanging from the balcony. But you are right, I am not sure how accurate their estimations are.
    Just my opinion

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  11. #81
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    Well, adding 1 decimal places makes it look accurate. It would have been better if they made it 26.21 inches for more impressive accuracy . After all, they were very scientific and based their findings on the forensics.
    This is nice !

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by greenpalm
    How does LE know that she was exactly 26.2 inches off the ground? Once the rope was cut, the stretching from her weight would spring back. It seems it would be hard to tell how far her feet were off the ground if you didn't measure before cutting.

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  13. #82
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    Maybe that was why she had tape residue on her legs. Maybe she used her legs to hold the tape that was put on the ends of the pieces of rope.

    Sorry, but if we ever cut tow ropes or other boating ropes, we had to burn the ends of the rope to keep it from coming apart. Tape would not have stayed on in water.
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  15. #83
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    Someone into BDSM would have the knowledge and skills to pull this off.
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  17. #84
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    Valhall posted a new article on October 4, 2011. Here's a link for anyone (else) who may have missed it:

    Rebecca Zahau case: A Dynamic Loading Analysis of the Fall

    http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/10...s-of-the-fall/

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  19. #85
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    Not sure this was ever put int his thread

    Lyndsey Philpott, a forensic knotting expert, talks about the Rebecca Zahau case Video

    http://drdrew.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/...se/?hpt=dr_bn1

    Transcripts

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../ddhln.01.html


    Now, we saw that video there where it looks -- that, to me, looks difficult. But I`ve got a forensic specialist here, Lyndsey Philpott, a knotting expert who worked on the JonBenet Ramsey case.

    I`m actually really grateful you`re here, because if it`s possible, show me how. Somebody who had no experience with rope, looking at that video, it seems extraordinary to think that somebody in an altered state perhaps could sit down, never having worked with a rope before, and bind themselves, and do it the way we saw in that video.

    LYNDSEY PHILPOTT, FORENSIC KNOTTING EXPERT: It`s a very curious thing to be able to tie yourself in knots. And seeing the way in which the video displayed it, you first of all have to find the halfway point on the line, and then put it over yourself like this.

    PINSKY: How would you know to do that? I would not know to do that unless I were a sailor from the 17th century or something. And I`m a young woman in distress. I`m going to think to do that?

    PHILPOTT: I really don`t think that anybody could think to do that.

    PINSKY: OK.

    PHILPOTT: And it`s very difficult for me even as an expert to be able to manipulate these lines in some way so that I can -- you can see it.

    PINSKY: And she actually did it behind her back. Then she got it -- but then --

    PHILPOTT: And then to take them off there and put them behind her back would be tantamount to contortionist, because you then have to try to figure out where things are going and how they`re going to get there.

    And what would be the purpose? What would be the purpose in showing that your hands are tied behind your back? After all is said and done, if you`re going to be committing suicide, aren`t you mainly concerned with asphyxiating or breaking your own neck as a result of that?

    PINSKY: And then the feet too were bound, I guess, although I haven`t seen any video on what kind of binding she allegedly did there. That, too, seems very, very bizarre.

    PHILPOTT: I haven`t seen anything which indicates the kind of binding around her wrists, nor have I seen anything indicating the kind of knot around her ankles.

    PINSKY: And by the way, how about having the knowledge to be able to have the right kind of -- I wouldn`t know what kind of knot to put around a bed to make sure I wouldn`t just fall to the ground. I mean, isn`t even that in itself a little challenging?

    PHILPOTT: That is challenging.

    PINSKY: And how about the noose? I don`t know how to tie -- how would she (ph) know how to tie a noose?

    PHILPOTT: There`s a number of different ways of tying a noose. You can tie one by doing this. But as you can see, if you put the end in the wrong place, that will simply come apart and you`ll be left with nothing.

    You have to put it into the right place, and you have to know to put it into the right place so that it would actually stay in position. And then once it does, it`s going to tighten up around the bed post.

    Most people will tie lots of knots. If they`re going to tie anything at all, they`ll tie lots of knots.

    PINSKY: That makes sense to me. That makes sense to me.

    PHILPOTT: They`ll tie lots of the long kind. And she wasn`t doing that.

    PINSKY: And that`s not what she was doing, yes.

    Well, listen, I really appreciate you being here, because to me this is one of the most mysterious parts of this, is watching an explanation on a video that`s supposed to show us how it was likely that she did it when, to me, it makes it even more mysterious.

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  21. #86
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    On the subject of Rebecca's wrist bands being on and the logistics of taking the rope on/off with wrist bands on....doesn't seem to be too much of an issue with the BDSM crowd:
    WARNING: Graphic advertisements at link~ BBM
    http://www.shibaricon.com/rules.html
    BADGES
    You must wear your wristband AND badge at all times during Shibaricon. The wristband is designed to be worn for the duration of the event. You will not be permitted to enter any portion of the event without BOTH your badge AND wristband. If you lose your badge or wristband, please contact registration immediately.
    In any event as large as Shibaricon, there may be times when individuals who don’t belong attempt to get into the play spaces or classrooms. Prominently displaying your wristband - ON YOUR WRIST - and wearing your name badge helps us quickly detect people who shouldn't be at the event. If you see someone who appears to be too young or has no identification please notify security immediately.
    NOT implying that was what Rebecca's wrist bands were, only that wristbands per se do not seem to be an issue with this.....

    Interesting photo:
    [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Beauty-Kinbaku-everything-Japanese-suddenly/dp/0615248764"]Amazon.com: "The Beauty of Kinbaku: Or everything you ever wanted to know about Japanese erotic bondage when you suddenly realized you didn't speak Japanese" (9780615248769): Master "K": Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ysfizmGqL.@@AMEPARAM@@41ysfizmGqL[/ame]

    I see a resemblence between this:
    WARNING - nude model:
    http://www.japaneseropeart.com/RopeA...ubi/index.html

    and the rope tying video located here:
    http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html

    Interesting:
    http://japaneseropeart.com/RopeArt/materials.html
    http://japaneseropeart.com/RopeArt/Ritual.html

    I see many parallels.....
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  23. #87
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    I wonder if LE even searched for books in the mansion on rope tying? I wonder if there are books on rope tying at the Arizona home?

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  25. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Holmes View Post
    I wonder if LE even searched for books in the mansion on rope tying? I wonder if there are books on rope tying at the Arizona home?
    Someone should check into the movie selections in their home or netflix or other video service rental or purchases.

    I actually recall a horror movie where a woman sees into the past an Asian woman in the process of hanging herself. The suicidal woman is nude, and binds her hands behind her back and then hangs herself from a stepladder or chair. I don't recall the title of the movie though...

    Anyone remember a movie like that?

    Maybe if evidence is found where the suspects AS, DR, NR, JS or even RZ is shown to have watched such a movie about hanging nude and self-binding hands, then we can make further conclusions about whether it was suicide or murder.

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  27. #89
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    Have to admit my very first impression on reading the news stories of RZ's death was "couple involved in kinky sex bondage games". From the beginning, my assumption was a boyfriend angry w/ his girlfriend over the accidental death of his son lures her into a compromising situation by initiating a sex bondage game, then kills her. MOO

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  29. #90
    Schmerty_Jones is offline ________________ Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betty P View Post
    Have to admit my very first impression on reading the news stories of RZ's death was "couple involved in kinky sex bondage games". From the beginning, my assumption was a boyfriend angry w/ his girlfriend over the accidental death of his son lures her into a compromising situation by initiating a sex bondage game, then kills her. MOO
    Interesting thought! I don't think RZ committed suicide! Max's family was hostile ,hateful & out for revenge.MOO.

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  31. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betty P View Post
    Have to admit my very first impression on reading the news stories of RZ's death was "couple involved in kinky sex bondage games". From the beginning, my assumption was a boyfriend angry w/ his girlfriend over the accidental death of his son lures her into a compromising situation by initiating a sex bondage game, then kills her. MOO


    I totally agree with your assessment!
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  33. #92
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    There were some comments that some of the rope ends were taped. So maybe some of this rope had been cut before and used by someone in the house for bondage?

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  35. #93
    There are so many improbable coincidences and conclusions drawn by LE if we are to believe their scenario that it just boggles the mind. Correct me if I mis-remember details BUT:

    We are asked to believe that she killed herself not only by performing amazing contortions and all the other things people have pointed out, but by tieing unusual tugboat knots - with a tugboat captain resident on the premises? What a coincidence!

    She was hit on the head, according to autopsy, and there was a table leg nearby that had been kicked in, but somehow, at this millionaire's mansion, that was a coincidence! Also, although no other human can stand on a 4-legged table that is missing a leg, AS was able to - what a coincidence!

    The dog was kenneled - what a coincidence!

    The sister-in-law who loathed her, from the family who blamed her for the child's death, asked to come over for a "chat" the night she died, and a mysterious woman was seen on the property - what a coincidence!

    Loud music that might cover an argument was heard, as were screams, but the victim was gagged - just a coincidence! Screaming is heard all the time in this posh neighborhood, right? It must just have been a coincidence!

    The couple who lived on the property's guesthouse moved out soon after - quelle coincidence!

    There are no cameras where JS claimed to be all night, in the Ronald McDonald house rather than a camera-laden hotel - but that's just a coincidence!

    The SD-Coronado police are the unluckiest police force ever, to have so many odd coincidences develop on a multimillion dollar estate - but that's all just a big old coincidence!

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  37. #94
    I forgot the amazing coincidence that JS and some of the women left here have a history of violent arguments, with accusations about choking.

    But that's surely just a coincidence.

    Kind of like how OJ had a history of battering Nicole. That was just a coincidence too.

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  39. #95
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    Water sport tow rope. Who would have the strength to utilize such a rope as this?
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  41. #96
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    I still have many questions about the rope used. SDSO brushed off questions or never followed up on many key items of evidence, simply saying "it's a suicide" we don't have to investigate anymore". But a real death investigation hasn't been done and questions about the rope are critical.

    How does LE know it was retrieved from the garage? Should credit card records/receipts be searched to see if any interested parties may have purchased it prior?

    The house has been completely remodeled, so there's not likely any evidence left, but is there anything about the evidence collected that could show others handled the rope? Certainly some more accurate reconstructions could be staged to help understand more.

    Was the rope a type that, unlike the slippery silky rope used in the SDSO demonstration, would stick in place once it was knotted? If RZ, per the SDSO re-enactment, was able to bind her wrists in front, then slip one hand out while moving both hands behind her back, then reinsert her hand to tighten - wouldn't that be difficult to do with this type of rope, with its rough surface?
    All statements are my opinion only.

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  43. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betty P View Post
    I still have many questions about the rope used. SDSO brushed off questions or never followed up on many key items of evidence, simply saying "it's a suicide" we don't have to investigate anymore". But a real death investigation hasn't been done and questions about the rope are critical.

    How does LE know it was retrieved from the garage? Should credit card records/receipts be searched to see if any interested parties may have purchased it prior?

    The house has been completely remodeled, so there's not likely any evidence left, but is there anything about the evidence collected that could show others handled the rope? Certainly some more accurate reconstructions could be staged to help understand more.

    Was the rope a type that, unlike the slippery silky rope used in the SDSO demonstration, would stick in place once it was knotted? If RZ, per the SDSO re-enactment, was able to bind her wrists in front, then slip one hand out while moving both hands behind her back, then reinsert her hand to tighten - wouldn't that be difficult to do with this type of rope, with its rough surface?
    Forensically, the knots that were tied could be examined to identify the person who tied those knots about Rebecca's wrists, ankles, bedpost, etc. Knots made may be as singularly specific as a person's fingerprint. I think if investigators compare the knots that were used on Rebecca and the bedpost to knots tied by defendants on their boats or household, a clear pattern would emerge and point directly to one or more of the defendants.

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  45. #98
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    I'm also very curious about "shavings" from the cutting of the rope. This is never mentioned and none can be seen in the photos from the hanging room.

    Where was the rope cut if not in that room?

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  47. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by bourne View Post
    Forensically, the knots that were tied could be examined to identify the person who tied those knots about Rebecca's wrists, ankles, bedpost, etc. Knots made may be as singularly specific as a person's fingerprint. I think if investigators compare the knots that were used on Rebecca and the bedpost to knots tied by defendants on their boats or household, a clear pattern would emerge and point directly to one or more of the defendants.
    Another question I have about the knots and rope - if, as SDSO alleges, RZ had the skills and practice to bind her arms, legs and neck in this intricate manner, why did she supposedly have to go retrieve a boat tow rope from the garage to do so? If, as some allege, she practiced this type of rope tying as a hobby, why were there no other ropes at the crime scene, in the house, etc? There were no other ropes in the house, or one would assume SDSO would have taken them as evidence.

    So how does one become an expert at tying these intricate knots, cutting specific lengths of rope, etc. without ever having practiced it before?
    All statements are my opinion only.

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  49. #100
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    I believe Adam was a tugboat operator.

    Here is a site about tugboats with an interesting picture of the type of knot commonly used. The rope pattern on the H-bit sure looks familiar.

    image.jpg


    http://tugboatsonline.com/boat_yard/...wsertowing.htm

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