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  1. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by AbbeyR View Post
    You didn't answer the question, but in any case... Defense lawyers can use a poly to determine the story, they don't necessarily only poly on things they know to be the truth, though they can then arrange a private poly with certain questions or release certain contents. There is just not a single format for a polygraph. And that was my whole point -- I can't say it any other way: We don't know what was questioned, and we don't know the answers since it was a *private* polygraph. Therefore, in my opinion, there is no reason to believe that the 'unofficial' story we heard must be the truth, simply because he took a polygraph. We can agree to disagree
    I never said it *must* be the truth. Yes, it was a private polygraph, but it was one *provided to LE*. Sure, there could have been other tests or other questions. My point is that I don't know how JR tells his story on a poly *without* specifying the 4:30 time (which, again, LE itself has said he told them). Did he not also specify the 4:15 time? Did he just tell the story without any times at all? Come on.


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  3. #437
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    We have no idea what "results" were even supplied to LE.Whether someone is being deceptive or not on a question is all according to how the examiner interprets the results.If all that was supplied was the examiners conclusions and not the raw data including all the polygraph charts that were produced IMO it does not matter what questions were asked.That is why LE will only accept tests that they administer the results are just to easy to manipulate.I have yet to meet a defense lawyer that could not get some "expert" to say exactly what he wanted him to say.
    Everybody cooperates,but nobody talks.


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  5. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by phantomthought View Post
    We have no idea what "results" were even supplied to LE.Whether someone is being deceptive or not on a question is all according to how the examiner interprets the results.If all that was supplied was the examiners conclusions and not the raw data including all the polygraph charts that were produced IMO it does not matter what questions were asked.That is why LE will only accept tests that they administer the results are just to easy to manipulate.I have yet to meet a defense lawyer that could not get some "expert" to say exactly what he wanted him to say.
    This is the Voyles statement: "He has provided full statements to the police and passed a polygraph that has also been provided to the authorities."


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  7. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnalyticalExaminer View Post
    My point is that I don't know how JR tells his story on a poly *without* specifying the 4:30 time (which, again, LE itself has said he told them). Did he not also specify the 4:15 time? Did he just tell the story without any times at all? Come on.
    A polygraph provided by a defense lawyer isn't going to be a confirmation of their entire story, it is the response to specific questions. If any of these answers are being provided to LE, sure, we can assume they are favorable to JR. But we can't assume the content. For all we know, the 'passed polygraph' could simply show that JR does not know LS's location. Or it could be an attempt to diminish his client's responsibility or prevent/ negotiate certain charges in the future. For example, if test results show that JR did not suppy LS with drugs, did not assault her, etc.

    The whole advantage to a private poly is that the lawyer is in control of any and all information about the exam, right? It doesn't really matter what questions we / LE think are the important ones.


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  9. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbbeyR View Post
    A polygraph provided by a defense lawyer isn't going to be a confirmation of their entire story, it is the response to specific questions. If any of these answers are being provided to LE, sure, we can assume they are favorable to JR. But we can't assume the content. For all we know, the 'passed polygraph' could simply show that JR does not know LS's location. Or it could be an attempt to diminish his client's responsibility or prevent/ negotiate certain charges in the future. For example, if test results show that JR did not suppy LS with drugs, did not assault her, etc.

    The whole advantage to a private poly is that the lawyer is in control of any and all information about the exam, right? It doesn't really matter what questions we / LE think are the important ones.
    The whole issue of private polygraphs confuses me, truthfully. Let's say that the answers aren't favorable to JR ... would the polygrapher be able to administer a second polygraph and not submit the first one? Is he/she allowed to keep such info private?

    All I know is that I've followed a case where the polygrapher conducted a polygraph that he felt a suspect "failed" yet LE "passed" (which resulted in controversy). Perhaps it was the "best" polygraph available? I don't quite get it ...


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  11. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by imkeylime View Post
    The whole issue of private polygraphs confuses me, truthfully. Let's say that the answers aren't favorable to JR ... would the polygrapher be able to administer a second polygraph and not submit the first one? Is he/she allowed to keep such info private?

    Yes. If your attorney sets up a private poly, it is protected by attorney-client privilege, preventing the results from being disclosed without consent.

    If you google "private polygraph" you'll find a million companies that cater to defense lawyers for this purpose. Here's one that explains the poly from the lawyer-client perspective: http://www.tkjpolygraph.com/attorney.html

    Note:
    Polygraph examinations given by the government or a law enforcement agency are used to support prosecutorial efforts. In contrast, TKJ Polygraph, LLC examinations is confidential, attorney-client work product. Nothing about the examination, including the simple fact a test was administered occurs without your prior written permission. You are in control of the release of any and all information about the examination. All data collected from the examination, which includes audio/visual recording, polygraph charts and written information is released only upon a written directive from the attorney ... Utilizing a private polygraph examination prevents providing a prosecutor the opportunity to conduct discovery about your case directly from a client since you never know what question the prosecutor's examiner will ask during the examination or interviews.... TKJ Polygraph customizes Specific Issue polygraph examination around defense attorney's needs. This polygraph program will allow defense attorney’s to better defend their client or shape their defense strategy, either by putting pressure on the prosecution or by being ready for any circumstance during trial.


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  13. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by AbbeyR View Post
    A polygraph provided by a defense lawyer isn't going to be a confirmation of their entire story, it is the response to specific questions. If any of these answers are being provided to LE, sure, we can assume they are favorable to JR. But we can't assume the content. For all we know, the 'passed polygraph' could simply show that JR does not know LS's location. Or it could be an attempt to diminish his client's responsibility or prevent/ negotiate certain charges in the future. For example, if test results show that JR did not suppy LS with drugs, did not assault her, etc.

    The whole advantage to a private poly is that the lawyer is in control of any and all information about the exam, right? It doesn't really matter what questions we / LE think are the important ones.
    You keep using the word "we." I'm speaking only for myself (and as someone who has repeatedly questioned JR's story more than anyone else's, in case you missed that). As far as I'm concerned, it's more likely than not that JR has been polygraphed on the same statement he provided to LE. If he has not been, I believe LE would regard him as uncooperative, and might advertise that fact in some fashion as a leveraging tool - the family's statement doesn't seem to qualify to me, coming after weeks of silence. Even if they did so privately, it might be cause for JR not to have returned to campus. Could JR have submitted a poly saying simply, "I don't know where LS is"? Sure, that's theoretically possible. It's also a little too facile - if someone he knows got rid of her without his involvement, he's obviously not going to know - and therefore not going to fool anyone. Could he have added, "I had no involvement in her disappearance"? Sure, and again, same deal, plus the possibility of ethical considerations for the lawyer. In either case, LE would be on him about why he's unwilling to be poly'd on the "full" statements he has provided to them. Again, there's little that can be said about this case with certainty. But I think it's useful to talk in terms of probabilities.


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  15. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubtingthomas View Post
    ...
    On the night LS disappeared, the bartender had gotten off work and drove by Smallwood
    on her way home. She saw a young girl outside of Smallwood who looked completely
    wasted. A male person was walking down the sidewalk towards her. She turned her vehicle around and went back. She asked the girl if she was ok. The male person responded, “She is with me”. Again she asked the girl if she was ok. Again, he responded, “I said she is with me”. The bartender went home.

    The next night when she went to work she relayed the story to her co-workers. They asked her what the girl was wearing. When she told them, black slacks with a white top they informed her that the girl was missing.

    The bartender went to the police and told them the story and gave them a description of the male person...
    This really does sound like it could be a version of TG's witness story. Still, it's interesting how even the change in one detail (like," A male person was walking down the sidewalk towards her") can make you think about a scenario in a different way. I don't know where to go with this, but I'd be interested in hearing more thoughts on it...


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  17. #444
    can someone fill me in on some theories?
    "I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." -Albert Einstein

    "While I know myself as a creation of God, I am also obligated to realize and remember that everyone else and everything else are also God's creation." -Maya Angelou


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  19. #445
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    perhaps

    Perhaps as harvest goes on more answers might appear.


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  21. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbbeyR View Post
    This really does sound like it could be a version of TG's witness story. Still, it's interesting how even the change in one detail (like," A male person was walking down the sidewalk towards her") can make you think about a scenario in a different way. I don't know where to go with this, but I'd be interested in hearing more thoughts on it...
    When I was told about this (face to face) not by telephone as was sugessted in an earlier post, I thought the same thing. But, when she said in front of SW, then my reaction was another person may have seen her that night. Concerning the male person walking towards her, my thought was this could have been right after the altercation at SW. CR is pissed because he got punched in the face. They are leaving SW and he doesn't realize LS is not walking with him until he hears someone speak to her. He then walks back to her. I am still waiting to hear back from the orginal source of this story. Also, interested in hearing more thoughts.


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  23. #447
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    I've always thought LS may have OD'd and a POI or PsOI disposed of her body to hide their involvement, i.e., that someone shared coke or alcohol with her ... or a prescription drug like Xanax, which might be easier to trace.

    We've discussed Xanax quite a bit and the possibility it was involved that night, especially if she indeed talked about it at Sports. Re: Adderall: yesterday my daughter asked me what it was, saying a boy in her HS chem class keeps talking about it. That freaked me out. What I've learned is frightening. Students w/o ADHD take this drug not just to extend partying, but to enhance studying (it helps them stay awake and focus) and for weight loss (females in particular). The recent suicide of a Vanderbilt University student was attributed to it—abuse of the drug can cause psychosis. In the related article, a fellow student says that "everybody takes it." (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoo...ry?id=12066619)

    The use of prescription drugs on campuses seems rampant, along with alcohol consumption. Any of these "cocktails" might have been deadly to LS given her heart condition ... and also might have compromised a POI's state of mind (not a defense for not talking or worse, obviously) or LS' state of mind (as in why oh why did she leave SW with CR?) ...


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  25. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubtingthomas View Post
    When I was told about this (face to face) not by telephone as was sugessted in an earlier post, I thought the same thing. But, when she said in front of SW, then my reaction was another person may have seen her that night. Concerning the male person walking towards her, my thought was this could have been right after the altercation at SW. CR is pissed because he got punched in the face. They are leaving SW and he doesn't realize LS is not walking with him until he hears someone speak to her. He then walks back to her. I am still waiting to hear back from the orginal source of this story. Also, interested in hearing more thoughts.
    When I used the term "telephone game" in my related post, I'm referring to the phenomenon of how information changes when it is one, two, three, etc. times removed from the original source. The "grapevine" and "Chinese whispers" are other names. Not meant to be disparaging whatsoever--I appreciate your sharing!



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  27. #449
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    No matter that a case might be made that he passed the poly and told the truth or else we would know otherwise, the highly dubious notions that she could walk normally and JR watched her walking always cancels out the poly. I always come back to how unlikely both actions are.

    It's like not seeing the forest for the trees.


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  29. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jupiter812 View Post
    No matter that a case might be made that he passed the poly and told the truth or else we would know otherwise, the highly dubious notions that she could walk normally and JR watched her walking always cancels out the poly. I always come back to how unlikely both actions are.

    It's like not seeing the forest for the trees.
    Add that he would have watched her leave with no shoes, cell, or keys to get in with. I realize I'm assuming he knew she had no cell, but why else would she use his phone as he claims she did. Maybe he was just a bad "friend" or I'm naive, but I'm not buying that, either. Given all the circumstances, I'd think he might have offered to go with her if she didn't want to stay.
    Last edited by imkeylime; 10-07-2011 at 11:29 AM.


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