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Thread: IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #25

  1. #126
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    ***Please note: This entire post consists of opinion, hear-say, emotion and/or conjecture. If you're interested in 'just the facts', please disregard the following comments.***

    Culture & Connections: My youngest attends Tulane, which has a large contingent of students from the NE. A handful in her circle have attended the same summer camp as LS, a few are from her hometown and one indicated they're childhood friends. My D has shared with us that xanax bars and coke are popular party choices within the NE crowds and even she was taken aback by their excessive drug use. During campus parties, she has witnessed many young women (generally 100-115 lbs) being encouraged and/or trying to keep pace with the men (160-200 lbs).

    This past summer, the same D worked along side an IU student who told her one week following the disappearance that a POI was a low-level DD and that she and all her friends believed that LS had OD'd and was taken out of town. In late June, I introduced myself to the co-worker as a former IU grad and we chatted about Bloomington and the LS case. When I asked her about the conversations she was having with friends and if any had contacted LE or sent in an anonymous tip, she shook her head no and changed the subject. I suspect there are plenty of concerned parents experiencing the same 'deafening silence' CS mentioned in her public letter. If the young adults last known to be with LS were/are supplying or using drugs, then naturally they're afraid to talk and would have much to hide.

    Bo Dielt: I live near a crime-ridden city on the East Coast, so I get his acerbic personality and investigative approach. However, IMO his portrayal of local LE as country bumpkins will likely prevent any collaboration or sharing of OTR details that could help create major movement in finding LS or solving this case.

    Cadaver Dogs & Human Decomposition: Recently, I spoke with several LE officers (one K9, who has been with his partner for only 6 months). He explained that it is extremely difficult for dogs to track on asphalt and that he wasn't surprised to hear that the LS dog lost the scent near a gravel lot. The officer said that so many factors determine whether a dog can pick up a scent days, weeks, months later (fluids, DNA, moisture levels, surface materials, …), for example, should someone pass away on pavement outdoors and be moved within moments (assuming no fluids, no hair/clothing fibers…) it would be unlikely the dog would detect anything.

    More LE insight: I've been told by LE officers that "the last known person with the victim is responsible for their disappearance more than 50% of the time." Sounds like common sense right? I also understand that timing is everything and this could just as easily be a crime of opportunity, which would mean the young men wouldn't have any information about LS' whereabouts. Even so, this group of young adults (so-called 'friends') appears to be immature, selfish and insensitive as they continue to party and make concert plans on fb as if nothing in their world has changed. Are any of them in therapy? Do they feel the slightest bit guilty or responsible for contributing to LS' lack of judgement or disappearance?

    Lastly, I believe several of you have touched on the possibility of LE offering deals to get POI to share all they know. I wonder if LE have approached the attorneys about reducing charges related to supplying drugs or drug use by the individuals in exchange for useful information? Would it be possible for CS & RS to sign something that would waive their ability to sue the POI in civil court? If LS has passed on, then IMO monetary damages are pointless.

    Without question, everyone including LE wants to find Lauren and allow her family to return home and start the healing process. The quickest way is to get JR, MB, CR, DR, HT and others talking … for hours and hours until the puzzle pieces start to fit.

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  3. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnalyticalExaminer View Post
    Thanks. I also see HT (repeatedly), JW (more than once), and an apparent buddy of DR's there as well. I should add that in the early interview, DR's demeanor suggested to me that he was a well-meaning dude truly concerned about finding LS.
    I have to wonder if the use of some of those pics is to apply more pressure... it was seeing all the pics of HT that really made that hit home for me...

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  5. #128
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    Thanks AE, I think that much is reasonable. I was just getting thrown off by some early comments and wondering if I had missed something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedrosmom View Post
    Is this case really going cold or is it being poorly served by an inept law enforcement unit that failed to use the resources (DEA, FBI, ATF) available to them when the evidence was fresh and now they find themselves in a hell of a quagmire. Unless the reach out and admit NOW, this is too big for them to handle, this case will go cold. None of the POIs should have been able to leave that town on June 3 and after without clearance by FBI/DEA and I mean a thorough search of apartments and cars - not to forget the MPOI Tweeting his mouth off as if to say "here I am, come get me."
    I mean, with all due respect, is there more to the story than the tweet that we know of that said "Runcible spoon getting my corned beef #"? Or does that constitute tweeting one's mouth off and translate to "here I am, come get me?" ... How do you think LE could or should have kept the POI from leaving town?

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  7. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by imkeylime View Post
    I find the following quote by CS in the dailybeast.com article interesting (albeit sad):

    “What’s this person doing?” she continues, seeming to follow every move of the man in her mind’s eye. “Is he going to work? Is he getting his Starbucks? What’s he doing and how is he doing it?”

    The questions in the second half of the quote intrigue me the most. They seem to suggest that CS does consider random abduction, as they suggest daily activities that college students might not partake in. OTOH, I suppose CS, like all of us, can't rule random abduction out.

    Following that idea, a possible Waffle House scenario seems worth consideration. Although not near a highway, is it easy access to Old 37 (hope I have the name right), which leads out of town? And then to Martinsville, Indy, etc.?
    Interesting and insightful.

    CS does a lot of thinking out loud. I am almost in overload mode with all the info of late. I don't know how she stays sane. At the concert the other night she asked the crowd their motivation for being there. Free food? Course assignment?, etc. It was taken out of context by some, and I don't know the context because I was gone by then, but she's definitely a Seeker.

    Yes, the WH has easy access to Old 37 North. However, if this is a WH perp and not a POI, all bets are off as to destination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodgirl65 View Post
    I believe Jupiter was referring to the Zodiac killer and that one of the PIs is a retired Lt. Detective who headed up the investigation of that case at some point..
    I searched after Bo(zo) said that and the Zodiac case is all I came up with. But the killer was never found. Maybe they're thinking this is serial Waffle House case.

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  11. #131
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    I don't see the Bloomington WH as a venue ripe for stranger abduction... too many cops around much of the time... and maybe I'm just not willing to entertain the whole crime of opportunity theory -- but I think that CS might have been saying that whoever took her somewhere that night was an abductor -- even if they were a friend.

    I saw all the offense taken by commenters in the Herald Times regarding CS motivation question -- and really felt like they were being a little overly sensitive. I agree that CS often speaks in a sort of stream of consciousness monologue. I like it because it makes it easy to connect with her. I saw her motivation comments as more of a way to inject a little humor into the evening -- and acknowledging that perhaps many of the people there weren't (or hadn't been) terribly involved in the searches for LS -- and that they were still welcome.

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  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloom54 View Post
    I don't see the Bloomington WH as a venue ripe for stranger abduction... too many cops around much of the time... and maybe I'm just not willing to entertain the whole crime of opportunity theory -- but I think that CS might have been saying that whoever took her somewhere that night was an abductor -- even if they were a friend.

    I saw all the offense taken by commenters in the Herald Times regarding CS motivation question -- and really felt like they were being a little overly sensitive. I agree that CS often speaks in a sort of stream of consciousness monologue. I like it because it makes it easy to connect with her. I saw her motivation comments as more of a way to inject a little humor into the evening -- and acknowledging that perhaps many of the people there weren't (or hadn't been) terribly involved in the searches for LS -- and that they were still welcome.
    That's good to know on both points. Thank you!

    (And now I'm reminded of ChickJustin's car video at the WH.)

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  15. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by IUGrad84 View Post
    ***Please note: This entire post consists of opinion, hear-say, emotion and/or conjecture. If you're interested in 'just the facts', please disregard the following comments.***

    Culture & Connections: My youngest attends Tulane, which has a large contingent of students from the NE. A handful in her circle have attended the same summer camp as LS, a few are from her hometown and one indicated they're childhood friends. My D has shared with us that xanax bars and coke are popular party choices within the NE crowds and even she was taken aback by their excessive drug use. During campus parties, she has witnessed many young women (generally 100-115 lbs) being encouraged and/or trying to keep pace with the men (160-200 lbs).
    Sadly summer camp may not be a good idea for teenagers. Sometimes drug abusers develop an interest in backpacking etc. just so that they can be off LE radar. Too many opportunities in the outdoors to try out the stuff; too many places to hide; the counselors tend to be too young and too "cool." But this situation is very unfortunate, because normal sports and outdoor activity can be so enriching.

    Maybe 17-18yo is just too young to be away from home. At that age, maybe people are biologically set up to get along socially rather than rocking the boat, and risking ostracization by rejecting drug abuse. If they aren't strongly enthusiatic about academics, maybe they get too bored, and they need social acceptance much more than they would normally.

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  17. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloom54 View Post
    I don't see the Bloomington WH as a venue ripe for stranger abduction... too many cops around much of the time...
    Would there be a police presence at around 4:30 am?

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  19. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jupiter812 View Post
    I searched after Bo said that and the Zodiac case is all I came up with. But the killer was never found. Maybe they're thinking this is serial Waffle House case.
    I believe he is referring to the NY Zodiac case which was solved, and was much more recent. There was a lead detective on it with a vaguely similar name, it may be pronounced Cheravolo if my Italian is correct.

    Detective Sgt. Michael Ciravolo, who headed a detail that investigated crimes against the elderly, read the note and grabbed his coat. Eventually, Ciravolo, now retired, would head the Zodiac task force, commanding 49 detectives in the largest manhunt since Son of Sam.
    http://articles.nydailynews.com/1996...iac-task-force


    Duh! edited to add from the same article I obviously didn't read all of:
    He and Kelly work for Bo Dietel Associates. Ciravolo is president.
    Last edited by elmomom; 09-24-2011 at 08:57 PM. Reason: a DUH moment in my life
    "Nobody's ever completely given peace a chance before, Ghandi tried it, Martin Luther King tried it, and they were shot...". - John Lennon

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  21. #136
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    well... I'm NEVER there at 4:30am (I always leave by 3!! ), but I understand that it's kind of a "hangout" place for BPD at night...

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  23. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walker View Post
    Sadly summer camp may not be a good idea for teenagers. Sometimes drug abusers develop an interest in backpacking etc. just so that they can be off LE radar. Too many opportunities in the outdoors to try out the stuff; too many places to hide; the counselors tend to be too young and too "cool." But this situation is very unfortunate, because normal sports and outdoor activity can be so enriching.

    Maybe 17-18yo is just too young to be away from home. At that age, maybe people are biologically set up to get along socially rather than rocking the boat, and risking ostracization by rejecting drug abuse. If they aren't strongly enthusiatic about academics, maybe they get too bored, and they need social acceptance much more than they would normally.
    I'm sorry but I have to STRONGLY disagree with you about your summer camp claim. I have attended and worked at a summer camp (for 13 years, over half my life!) very similar to LS and know many people who have attended her camp. These camps provide kids with incredible role models, a support system and a lifelong family. Camps have a zero tolerance policy about drug use and drinking, I have seen friends and former counselors fired from my camp for such things. These camps can attract families with money since it is so expensive to send a child away to camp for a month or two, so it is possible that these kids when they grow up into young adults have the resources to drink and do expensive drugs (cocaine, etc). Summer camps, backpacking and such do not cause or contribute to drug and alcohol abuse.

    Also, 17-18 is when these teenagers are being trained to be counselors and leaders in the camp, generally rising seniors in high school are counselors in training, sometimes junior counselors. They are given responsibilities and the camp directors and supervisory staff have very high expectations of them. I was the assistant director of the counselor training program at my summer camp in 2010 and they couldn't have been more eager and excited to become counselors and leaders in their camp community. I think without programs like overnight camps, sports camps, teams etc, people are more likely to go down a dark path in their young adult years..

    Sorry to rant, but I have to defend the camping system. It made me who I am.
    Last edited by Alliecog; 09-24-2011 at 09:21 PM. Reason: Added more

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  25. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walker View Post
    Sadly summer camp may not be a good idea for teenagers. Sometimes drug abusers develop an interest in backpacking etc. just so that they can be off LE radar. Too many opportunities in the outdoors to try out the stuff; too many places to hide; the counselors tend to be too young and too "cool." But this situation is very unfortunate, because normal sports and outdoor activity can be so enriching.
    I will tell you that this is not at all my experience. Drugs are just not part of the culture of summer camp, and and even if there were opportunity (in my experience, there's not), there is very little time, opportunity or places to hide, as you suggest... you are busy all the time. Everyone I know who went to/ worked at summer camps consider it to be a major part of their lives, and a positive experience. My experience obviously isn't universal, but having attended and worked at the same kind of summer camp that Lauren did for most of my life, I have to disagree with your assessment.

    Edited to add: ha, Alliecog beat me to it.

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  27. #139
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    I'm glad to hear Abby and Allie both responding to the summer camp claim! I was hesitant to do that because it's been about 35(!) years since I worked at a summer camp in NH and I thought that perhaps things had changed. But even back then, counselor background checks were pretty stringent - and the programs were tightly controlled.

    This is very different from simply going out on a backpacking trip. The days and evenings are busy and there's a culture of health, responsibility, leadership that really helps kids to grow!

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  29. #140
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    Somewhat OT but my camp's slogan is "where friends become family" and I couldn't imagine my life without my camp friends. To offset the cost after my first summer, my mom worked at our camp as a nurse for 8 SUMMERS. It truly became a family affair, and my camp friends have become my family and will always be like that.

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  31. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alliecog View Post
    Somewhat OT but my camp's slogan is "where friends become family" and I couldn't imagine my life without my camp friends. To offset the cost after my first summer, my mom worked at our camp as a nurse for 8 SUMMERS. It truly became a family affair, and my camp friends have become my family and will always be like that.
    (stands quietly over here, applauding your incredibly awesome mom)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alliecog View Post
    Somewhat OT but my camp's slogan is "where friends become family" and I couldn't imagine my life without my camp friends. To offset the cost after my first summer, my mom worked at our camp as a nurse for 8 SUMMERS. It truly became a family affair, and my camp friends have become my family and will always be like that.
    BBM

    Do you believe this to be a common sentiment? I wonder if it could be playing a part in the silence seen in this case.

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    She is amazing. I should mention I am a twin so she is even more awesome. She continued coming even when I was a first year staff member. Her fellow camp nurses have become her best friend, she calls them "her bunk"

    Basically I'm defending camp so much because I believe in my heart that LS is a very sweet, smart and passionate girl. I know through friends that she is everything CS has said and more, a true friend that would do anything for you. I believe camp made LS this way. Unfortunately Smallwood is a place that attracts a lot of people who run in the party and drug circles, I know that she partied hard, and with people who did the same. It is easy to fall into the party scene here at IU, just like any other big college (or any college for that matter), it seems to me that LS just partied too hard that night and found herself in compromising positions. We've all been there in one way or another.

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  37. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by bx2 View Post
    BBM

    Do you believe this to be a common sentiment? I wonder if it could be playing a part in the silence seen in this case.
    Yes absolutely I do. I just don't understand your question about it playing part in the silence? The majority of POIs are not LS camp friends. Can you explain your connection?

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  39. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alliecog View Post
    Yes absolutely I do. I just don't understand your question about it playing part in the silence? The majority of POIs are not LS camp friends. Can you explain your connection?
    I was alluding to the possibility of helping to cover up for "family" or remain tight lipped about their possible involvement.
    Last edited by bx2; 09-24-2011 at 11:02 PM. Reason: spelling

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  41. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by bx2 View Post
    I was eluding to the possibility of helping to cover up for "family" or remain tight lipped about their possible involvement.
    No, absolutely not. I think that the opposite would be true, camp friends would feel obligated to Lauren and her family (the parents of camp friends become 2nd moms and dads). I think that if any of her camp friends who may be involved (who besides HT?) knew anything beyond what is already known to LE then they would be speaking up, shouting from the rooftops! All of the guys that L was with that night are NOT camp friends, and honestly don't seem like the nicest guys. Bloomington in the summer is different, many friends leave for the summer and there is a limited group of people to hang out with. I think THIS FACT contributed to LS's night, she was not with her closest friends or the people who would look out for her, as far as I'm concerned.

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  43. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alliecog View Post
    No, absolutely not. I think that the opposite would be true, camp friends would feel obligated to Lauren and her family (the parents of camp friends become 2nd moms and dads). I think that if any of her camp friends who may be involved (who besides HT?) knew anything beyond what is already known to LE then they would be speaking up, shouting from the rooftops! All of the guys that L was with that night are NOT camp friends, and honestly don't seem like the nicest guys. Bloomington in the summer is different, many friends leave for the summer and there is a limited group of people to hang out with. I think THIS FACT contributed to LS's night, she was not with her closest friends or the people who would look out for her, as far as I'm concerned.
    Sorry, I was referring to the other people with her and their connections to each other, not their connection to LS. JR, for example, went away to camp. If he has the same family bond with a person involved, might it explain why he would be reluctant to come forward.

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  45. #148
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    I've wondered about that, Alliecog -- and I'm glad you reminded me that it was summer...

    I would think that LS would have had a group of friends from the fashion design school. I know that when I was in university, often our friend group was from within our department because we spent so much time together.... so I have wondered why those friends haven't come forward with info... but many of them were probably not in town -- that makes more sense to me now...

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  47. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by bx2 View Post
    Sorry, I was referring to the other people with her and their connections to each other, not their connection to LS. JR, for example, went away to camp. If he has the same family bond with a person involved, might it explain why he would be reluctant to come forward.
    I guess that could be a possibility, but I do not recall how all those guys knew each other... I honestly don't know what to think about JR. I just think that he has more to explain.

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  49. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloom54 View Post
    well... I'm NEVER there at 4:30am (I always leave by 3!! ), but I understand that it's kind of a "hangout" place for BPD at night...
    Maybe BPD hangout there to prevent the type of problems that sometimes are associated with WH parking lots. For LS to be abducted as she walked from 11th to 10th on College Ave would then seem less likely.

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