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  1. #31
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    Can't imagine a political killing in which the murder weapon is then given to a local criminal. They may be the Argentine couple, but there is a lot of fanciful speculation going on. Even people fleeing evil regimes can be robbed, killed, and dumped on a secluded road. Let's face it, every case on here is here because of a confluence of weird factors. Let's not write spy stories. Did anyone ever send prints and DNA to Argentina?

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnum P.E. View Post
    Can't imagine a political killing in which the murder weapon is then given to a local criminal.
    Yet that's exactly what DINA did in other assassinations in Buenos Aires and Rome.

  3. #33
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    After reading up on Operation Condor and the Letelier Case, among others, it now seems way less outlandish to suggest that they were victims of more than a robbery. No proof either way, which may be what was intended.

    In the case of Letelier, they blew him up on the streets of Washington D.C., showing that they were not afraid to kill a high profile target in the US. Not a stretch to say they would kill two lesser targets in the countryside. Where is the part about leaving the weapon with local criminals in another case? Fiendish way to throw off suspicion, don't dispose of the weapon, give it to someone else likely to use it in another crime. If that is what was done, it is keeping us chasing our tails over 35 years later!

  4. #34
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    I just thought of something. Did César and María Lugones know English?

    The reason I'm asking is because if Jock and Jane Doe were in fact César and María Lugones from Argentina (or some other unfortunate victims from that country's Dirty War), would they have known English well enough to be the same couple at the KOA campgrounds? Would César have been fluent enough in English to have quickly concocted the Canadian doctor story to tell David Batson?

    Of course, that's assuming that the man who told Batson that story and then tried to pawn his ring and Jock Doe were one and the same, which no one has ever really been able to confirm.

    The alleged sighting of the couple at the KOA does raise some questions in my mind that if answered might rule in rule out the Lugones couple as being our victims. Sadly, I doubt that we'll ever be able to find the answers to them, so there's not much point in me posting them.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby88 View Post
    Of course, that's assuming that the man who told Batson that story and then tried to pawn his ring and Jock Doe were one and the same, which no one has ever really been able to confirm.
    That's assuming too that Batson was even telling the truth when he came forward over a year later.

  6. #36
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    CarlK and I recently discussed that it should have been obvious to the camp ground employee if the UID couple had an accent - as you would certainly expect if they were from Argentina. Great points, but we are making a huge assumption that the camp ground connection - David Batson - was accurate in his statement about his interaction with "Jock". It was actually David Batson's wife who worked at the KOA campground in Santee, SC. So many questions that seem like there should be clear answers to, but we continue with little information and many questions.

  7. #37
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    If hair were saved then isotope analysis would tell where they had been. It shows the geographical origin of water they had been drinking. Hair grows about three inches per year, the woman at least should have several years worth of travel that could be determined. The Argentine and French Canadian possibilities could be proved/disproved. Does anyone know if hair was preserved?

  8. #38
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    I haven't been able to find out much info on César Amadeo Lugones. As a professor of veterinary surgery, he was well educated and that may have included some English. I wonder if he had traveled to Miami previously, hence the 1975 Sebring T-shirt that pre-dated their 14 May 1976 abduction in Buenos Aires.

    The similarity between his veterinary background and "Jock" Doe's reported cover story of abandoning a future as a doctor makes me think the Lugones couple might have in fact been released from ESMA and allowed into exile. That is what happened with Orlando Letelier, who had been held in a Chilean prison camp for some time before emigrating to Washington, DC, where despite the warnings he became a very vocal embarrassment to Pinochet.

    Also, earlier in 1976 the Letelier bombmaker Michael Townley had driven from Miami to Mexico City in a Dodge camper on a DINA mission to assassinate leftists at a big conference in Mexico City (they arrived too late). (This is per Townley's federal testimony, recounted in 1978's Assassination on Embassy Row.) He was accompanied by his wife (native Chilean) and a Cuban exile terrorist from Miami. Perhaps they---or others on a similar mission---crossed paths with the Lugones pair. Remember, María Márta's father was the Argentinean ambassador to Mexico City at the time.

    The Cuban nationalist terrorist Orlando Bosch had spent the previous two years in Buenos Aires and Santiago soliciting business from the military juntas and right-wing terror groups such as AAA. If I recall correctly, he had already worked with Townley on assassinations in Buenos Aires.

    Seems likely the gunman Lonnie Henry was returning from Vietnam, up from some anticommunist action like other Fort Bragg mercenaries who went to Angola, etc. The juntas hired other subcontractors, including Cuban Nationalists (CORU, CNM etc.) all the time, who hired local ****s. In fact compartmentalization was standard operating procedure. Maybe Henry was really just supplying the gun, and he was too cheap to dispose of it.

  9. #39
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    Once again, if teeth were preserved isotope analysis would tell where, geographically, they lived during the time their adult teeth were formed. It does not change. Canada, Cuba, Argentina,...we would have facts and knowledge to go on. Why is it always easier to spin tales than to run a test and have hard facts? In the UK they successfully do isotope analysis on ancient remains. Who has charge of the remains and can order an isotope test? If they are uncooperative, maybe we could publicly shame them into doing the test. If we are going to continue to speculate we may as well use a Quija board or read tea leaves. Someone answer me please.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnum P.E. View Post
    Once again, if teeth were preserved isotope analysis would tell where, geographically, they lived during the time their adult teeth were formed. It does not change. Canada, Cuba, Argentina,...we would have facts and knowledge to go on. Why is it always easier to spin tales than to run a test and have hard facts? In the UK they successfully do isotope analysis on ancient remains. Who has charge of the remains and can order an isotope test? If they are uncooperative, maybe we could publicly shame them into doing the test. If we are going to continue to speculate we may as well use a Quija board or read tea leaves. Someone answer me please.
    Magnum PE - I don't think we have an answer as to why isotope analysis has not been done. Nor do I think we really know if LE has done such testing, but has not shared it with the public.

    I do know there have been a few cases where such testing has been done and that there is a lab, in Santa Barbara, CA (I think) that does such testing. Maybe it is just hugely expensive?

    Salem


  11. #41
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    With more forensic science programs at universities, you would think that one would like to do the analysis for a case as interesting as this one.

    I am an engineer by profession and tend to think like one. I like facts and information, not speculation.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnum P.E. View Post
    With more forensic science programs at universities, you would think that one would like to do the analysis for a case as interesting as this one.

    I am an engineer by profession and tend to think like one. I like facts and information, not speculation.
    Magnum, What do you make of the fact that the young guy had had recent extensive (and expensive ) dental work ? Also, he appeared to have had a manicure in the time before his murder ? Interested to hear your thoughts...TIA

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by liz b. View Post
    Magnum, What do you make of the fact that the young guy had had recent extensive (and expensive ) dental work ? Also, he appeared to have had a manicure in the time before his murder ? Interested to hear your thoughts...TIA
    That is one of the many things I wondered about. Was Argentina in the habit of doing expensive dental work on political prisoners before they shot them? And allowing women care of their eyelashes was a very gallant deed by their captors. It is possible but I doubt it. The whole political prisoner thing is very interesting but I can't draw a dotted line from arrested to prisoner to shooting pool at a KOA in SC to shot and dead by the side of a dark road. Remember that if "Jock" and the decedent were the same person, he would have had to be in the US the year before the murders, gone BACK to South America to be arrested in March 1976, and returned to the US to be shot and dumped that fall. I think that "Jock" may be another person, or Cesar is not the decedent. Or both. They certainly do look like the couple Cesar and Maria, at least he does. You know, I think we use visual appearance wrongly on Websleuths, it should be used to rule out, not confirm.
    I also read that it is believed that his dental work was probably not done in the US, which would support the foreign origins. I had not heard about the manicure. Well, he had some money or came from a country with good medical/dental care. Cuba maybe? Costa Rica?
    I guess the only reasonable conclusion is that he had money to spend on such things. Poor people don't get manicures and have good dental work.
    I like isotope analysis when you have nothing else. Check its use in the case of Caledonia Jane Doe, they have not found an identity yet but it is believed that she grew up in the San Diego area. We could find out where the Sumter County Does were early in their lives and the hair would tell us their recent movements. A country of origin would be most helpful in this case, as no one in the US is missing them.

    How can we get the local coroner to do these tests?

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnum P.E. View Post
    I like facts and information, not speculation.
    Speculation can be a step in getting to facts.

  15. #45
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    I think it's probably an issue of money as far as why the isotope test has not been ordered. That, combined with the politics ensuing at the coroner's office in Sumter. Unfortunately time hasn't stopped since 1976 and I'm sure they've got their hands full of newer cases as well. This is just my speculation, of course, but I'd really hope that they realize there are people out there who want answers.
    nothing seems black when i see your red shoes

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