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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnum P.E. View Post
    That is one of the many things I wondered about. Was Argentina in the habit of doing expensive dental work on political prisoners before they shot them? And allowing women care of their eyelashes was a very gallant deed by their captors. It is possible but I doubt it. The whole political prisoner thing is very interesting but I can't draw a dotted line from arrested to prisoner to shooting pool at a KOA in SC to shot and dead by the side of a dark road. Remember that if "Jock" and the decedent were the same person, he would have had to be in the US the year before the murders, gone BACK to South America to be arrested in March 1976, and returned to the US to be shot and dumped that fall. I think that "Jock" may be another person, or Cesar is not the decedent. Or both. They certainly do look like the couple Cesar and Maria, at least he does. You know, I think we use visual appearance wrongly on Websleuths, it should be used to rule out, not confirm.
    I also read that it is believed that his dental work was probably not done in the US, which would support the foreign origins. I had not heard about the manicure. Well, he had some money or came from a country with good medical/dental care. Cuba maybe? Costa Rica?
    I guess the only reasonable conclusion is that he had money to spend on such things. Poor people don't get manicures and have good dental work.
    I like isotope analysis when you have nothing else. Check its use in the case of Caledonia Jane Doe, they have not found an identity yet but it is believed that she grew up in the San Diego area. We could find out where the Sumter County Does were early in their lives and the hair would tell us their recent movements. A country of origin would be most helpful in this case, as no one in the US is missing them.

    How can we get the local coroner to do these tests?
    The Argentine military did have a recuperation program to clean up the appearance of captives before they were executed. They were informed by the disastrous global reaction to Pinochet's abuses of 1973 and sought to conceal the appearance of torture. That is one reason Pinochet is a household name here, but few people know Argentina was responsible for perhaps 7x as many disappearances (22,000 vs. 3,000).

    As far as the eyelashes---wouldn't she have naturally long eyelashes, with or without upkeep?

    The KOA story is interesting. It might or might not apply. Also, a T-shirt is just a T-shirt. He might or might not have been at that event. It was reported in federal testimony that Batalion 601 actually was operating out of a thrift store in Southern Florida. That would give them access to clothing, jewelry, guns, whatever.

    Argentine death squads have been known to dress their captives in different clothes before execution, sometimes placing the wrong IDs on them.

    At the same time, it is certainly possible the Lugones couple was in the United States in 1975 as well.

    Isotope analysis would be useful, but apparently we're still waiting on DNA results from 2007.

    I am surprised you don't think Jane Doe looks like María Marta. I have two pro forensic artists who call the likeness "stunning." Not to mention several Websleuths.

    I have seen similar likenesses here that turned out to be the wrong person. But a pair of them, together? Seems unlikely. And I haven't seen any information that proves this couldn't be the Argentines.

    I do believe the human-rights groups etc. are operating on the idea that María Marta gave birth at ESMA in December 1976. But consider the source: Adolfo Scilingo, a complete flake who later recanted his testimony and said he was never even at that prison.

    In short, the pair exactly matches the physical appearance of the Lugones couple, the m.o. exactly matches the work of the death squads, and the Operation Condor--Cuban exile--local mercenary methodology has already been proven in other cases in Europe and even the USA (Letelier).

  2. #47
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    I appreciate the spy-novel character of the Condor theory. According to John Dinges, DINA hitman Michael Townley was inspired by The Day of the Jackal, which was itself inspired by a real-life assassin.

    I think it helps to recall the atmosphere of the summer of 1976. Declassified cables reveal the CIA and State Department were scrambling to formulate a response for newly-discovered Operation Condor plans to assassinate dissidents abroad. It was also the time of the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), formed to study whether there was a "Murder Inc." operating the United States.

    In fact, the same day the SC does were discovered, mobster John Roselli was found floating in a barrel off the Miami coast. Who silenced him? He was getting ready to testify to HSCA about Operation 40, the plot to use Cuban exiles to assassinate Castro. The stuff of conspiracy theories, surely, but proven facts are there too.

  3. #48
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    I am surprised you don't think Jane Doe looks like María Marta. I have two pro forensic artists who call the likeness "stunning." Not to mention several Websleuths.

    Well, one technique is to look at the corners of the eye sockets and draw an imaginary line going through them for each eye. The two lines may cross above or below horizontal but if they cross in different places they are not the same person no matter how much they look alike. Maria's lines cross above. The line for her right eye rises towards the centerline of her face. The Jane Doe's are exactly horizontal. This does not change with age or weight fluctuation and can be used with open or closed eye photos.
    Some intelligence services use this. I hope it is useful.

  4. #49
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    That is an interesting technique; I wasn't able to replicate your results but maybe I'm doing it wrong.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swamp Fox Trot View Post
    That is an interesting technique; I wasn't able to replicate your results but maybe I'm doing it wrong.
    Actually maybe you are doing it right and I am the one doing it wrong! You don't have to do it mentally, you can even print pix out and use a pencil and ruler. I may print them out and try it.

    If only they would do the isotope analysis we'd know a lot more, wouldn't we? It may have been done and the results not released. I have found that they do use it as an investigative tool more than they let on.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnum P.E. View Post
    Once again, if teeth were preserved isotope analysis would tell where, geographically, they lived during the time their adult teeth were formed. It does not change. Canada, Cuba, Argentina,...we would have facts and knowledge to go on. Why is it always easier to spin tales than to run a test and have hard facts? In the UK they successfully do isotope analysis on ancient remains. Who has charge of the remains and can order an isotope test? If they are uncooperative, maybe we could publicly shame them into doing the test. If we are going to continue to speculate we may as well use a Quija board or read tea leaves. Someone answer me please.
    Quote Originally Posted by liz b. View Post
    Magnum, What do you make of the fact that the young guy had had recent extensive (and expensive ) dental work ?

    Also, he appeared to have had a manicure in the time before his murder ? Interested to hear your thoughts...TIA
    Magnum, Good points.
    Also, The murder weapon was found under a truck drivers car seat. I will never believe this guy didn't know WHO used his pistol to murder this young couple and why. Who would believe that after shooting the couple 2 times each, the killer replaces the pistol back in this guys truck....Who knew the pistol needed to be reloaded, once it was put back under the car seat?

    I think Joe, a young 16 yr. old man missing from Oregon in 1975 looks a lot like Jock/John Doe...



    Brian Joseph Page - Salem OR, 1975

    16-year-old Brian Page, who may use the nickname Joe, has been missing from Salem, Oregon since leaving a party with friends in 1975. His vehicle, a turquoise 1962 Volkswagen Bug, has also never been found. Anyone with information should call Portland Police at 503-823-0400.
    __________________
    Last edited by Mysterylover; 09-25-2012 at 12:29 PM.

    ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’..
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds...What I write here, are my theories, speculation, opinions & deductive reasoning...not to be taken as 'fact'..

  7. #52
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    Brian Page is not a good match to Jock Doe for height, age, and circumstances of disappearance.
    It might be helpful if Brian Page's siblings, if any are living, would submit dna to CODIS.

  8. #53
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    Not at KOA campground!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fukiyama View Post
    That's assuming too that Batson was even telling the truth when he came forward over a year later.
    Once again, i want to make clear that David Batson's testimony was that the couple he saw at the campground was staying at the campground in the summer of 1975. The murders took place in august of 1976. David Batson came forward with information in December of 1976. That means that he probably was WRONG!, unless the couple came back to the area a year later and was staying somewhere else, that is all they way from Canada according to Batson. It seems to be a very unlikely scenario. I think David Batson heard that the John Doe was wearing a 1975 IMSA shirt and reversed engineered a scenario that would fit the campers in his campground. Ironically, I believe David Batson's was correct in trying to make a connection a to the IMSA Sebring race in FL in 1975. I believe the that John Doe was most likely at that race. That is the only place that shirt was sold. There was a Talledega, AL race just prior the murders. I believe John Doe was sporting his IMSA shirt at this race and was in the sumter area for "drug business" a couple of days afterewards. I think the Canadian theory which originated from David Batson, should be put much further on the back burner rather than dominate the press and speculation which it has thus far.

  9. #54
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    Ok. I'm going to pull a complete Fox Mulder here for a moment.

    If we believe that they are Argentines murdered by operatives in this country, either foreign or domestic, I'd just like to point out that there is a man KNOWN to have ties to the State Department, was fluent in Spanish and had worked counterintelligence in the army who vanished less than 6 months before these murders. He is also thought to have had heavy CIA ties. The next sighting of him was 2 years later in Europe.

    Could they have been victims of Bradford Bishop?

    Yeah, I know, it's far fetched. Just thought I'd throw it out there.
    Unless I've provided a link, most of what I say is my own opinion. Sometimes, I'm thinking out loud and may explore avenues I don't necessarily think are true, but I'm always aware I could be wrong, so I check other stuff out.

  10. #55
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    If these two aren't them, I don't know WHO is. Taking the clue from the first poster on the thread:

    http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/z/zaffora/


  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owutatangledweb View Post
    If these two aren't them, I don't know WHO is. Taking the clue from the first poster on the thread:

    http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/z/zaffora/
    Wow! That is pretty amazing. I found some other photos of the male. DESAPARECIDOS EL26 DE SEPTIEMBRE DE 1976/77 (Disappeared)...

    17.jpg yves01.jpg

    http://colectivoepprosario.blogspot....ergue-fue.html

    This is a good link http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/muro2.html

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by LucyOso View Post
    Wow! That is pretty amazing. I found some other photos of the male. DESAPARECIDOS EL26 DE SEPTIEMBRE DE 1976/77 (Disappeared)...

    17.jpg yves01.jpg

    http://colectivoepprosario.blogspot....ergue-fue.html

    This is a good link http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/muro2.html
    The link says they disappeared on Sept. 26, 1977. They mystery couple were found in August of 1976. Would that rule them out?
    The above mentioned text and views are my opinion and mine alone.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venom View Post
    The link says they disappeared on Sept. 26, 1977. They mystery couple were found in August of 1976. Would that rule them out?
    I think the article says September of 1976 or 1977, if sept of 1976, that could just be approximations. They may not really know.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by LucyOso View Post
    Wow! That is pretty amazing. I found some other photos of the male. DESAPARECIDOS EL26 DE SEPTIEMBRE DE 1976/77 (Disappeared)...

    17.jpg yves01.jpg

    http://colectivoepprosario.blogspot....ergue-fue.html

    This is a good link http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/muro2.html
    Lucy, WOW!! That picture looks identical to our John Doe...age and looks fit...this can't be a coincidence....

    ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’..
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds...What I write here, are my theories, speculation, opinions & deductive reasoning...not to be taken as 'fact'..

  15. #60
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    I can't help but think that these two were a couple of drifters/ runaways who met up at some point and then embarked on a career of drug-running. They got involved over their heads and did something that upset those in charge. Maybe it involved a theft of some sort. It just all points to being drug related, IMO.

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