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View Poll Results: Which charges do you think the state proved BARD?

Voters
84. You may not vote on this poll
  • Do you think the state proved BARD counts 1 thru 7?

    52 61.90%
  • Do you think the state proved BARD counts 2 thru 7?

    18 21.43%
  • Do you think the state proved BARD counts 3 thru 7?

    3 3.57%
  • Do you think the state proved BARD counts 4 thru 7?

    11 13.10%

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  1. #1
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    Rehashing, debating and discussing the evidence

    The seven counts against KC were as follows

    Count One, First Degree Murder:
    Lesser Included of Count One, Second Degree Murder: (depraved mind murder, not premeditated)
    Count Two, Aggravated Child Abuse:
    Count Three, Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child:
    Counts Four Through Seven, Giving False Information to a Law Enforcement Officer in Reference to a Missing Person:

    1. Do you think the state proved BARD counts 1 thru 7.
    2. Do you think the state proved BARD only counts 2 thru 7.
    3. Do you think the state proved BARD only counts 3 thru 7.
    4. Do you think the state proved BARD only counts 4 thru 7.

    Why do you think the state proved BARD? (BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT)

    It has been 3 months since the verdict. Some posters seem to have an interest in debating and or discussing the evidence, while other posters are no longer interested in rehashing, or debating the evidence. I thought a thread dedicated to rehashing the evidence might give those of us a place to debate, without disrupting other threads.

    I think a new poll that tells how we feel 3 months after the verdict would be interesting. Please vote, and if you would like discuss what evidence brought you to what you believe the state proved or did not prove, feel free
    Last edited by thedeviledadvocate; 10-06-2011 at 12:07 AM. Reason: clarification
    The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.-- Gandhi

  2. #2
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    New topical threads are kinda rare around here but I'm approving and opening this one up.

    Counting on you guys to practice tolerance and post respectfully.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for starting this thread! I'm gonna vote then head back to the Sidebar thread where I'm more comfy and leave it to the debaters!

    Oh I voted BARD 1-7.
    My Twitter handle is @Lovemypupper . I had to change it due to rabid Kate Gosselin fans. Seriously. I'm not kidding.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedeviledadvocate View Post
    The seven counts against KC were as follows

    Count One, First Degree Murder:
    Lesser Included of Count One, Second Degree Murder: (depraved mind murder, not premeditated)
    Count Two, Aggravated Child Abuse:
    Count Three, Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child:
    Counts Four Through Seven, Giving False Information to a Law Enforcement Officer in Reference to a Missing Person:

    1. Do you think the state proved BARD counts 1 thru 7.
    2. Do you think the state proved BARD only counts 2 thru 7.
    3. Do you think the state proved BARD only counts 3 thru 7.
    4. Do you think the state proved BARD only counts 4 thru 7.

    Why do you think the state proved BARD?
    Snipped.

    Since we have this venue, I guess I will go ahead and say what I think.

    I vote 1st degree (felony murder).

    I believe FCA committed aggravated child abuse (chloroform overdose) and it resulted in Caylee's death.

    I believe she then taped her up and hid her to make it look like the kidnapping story that she so vehemently stuck to.

    JMO.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberry View Post
    Thanks for starting this thread! I'm gonna vote then head back to the Sidebar thread where I'm more comfy and leave it to the debaters!

    Oh I voted BARD 1-7.
    I did also and I'm right behind you to the Sidebar.
    When there is Justice - there is Peace.

  6. #6
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    I voted for murder in the first degree because I know she did it. Proof of the duct tape found on Caylee's skull and the remains of the stickiness in the shape of the little heart sticker that was found on the duct tape sealed everything for me.

  7. #7
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    I think the state failed to prove premeditated murder BARD, because the chloroform evidence, at best, was weak. The state did prove it was possible that KC did a search for how to make chloroform. They also did prove there was a high level of chloroform inside the trunk of the Pontiac. They failed to tie KC to the chloroform in any way, aside from the how to make chloroform search. They failed to find any purchases for ingredients to make chloroform. They failed to find any signs that chloroform was made in the trunk, or at the A's home, or anywhere else that KC frequented. The state failed to give a reasonable explanation as to how or even why there was a high level of chloroform in the trunk. Without chloroform, the premeditation was not proven BARD.

    The duct tape. JA stated on the Dr. D show after the trial

    My feeling was always, if you look at that photograph of how the body was found, where the tape was, the skull… And if it didn’t tell the jury the same story it told me, then so be it.

    This statement by JA sounds as if he accepted the fact that the photograph of how the body was found, where the duct tape was, the skull... did not tell the jury the same story it had told him.

    When in court he presented the dramatic, one, two, then three pieces of tape over Caylee's face, as she looked into the eyes of her murderer, he was speculating, or infering. The photos of the tape/skull we were allowed to see although blurred, gave us a reasonable idea of what the jurors were seeing. The jurors obviously unanimously decided that the duct tape was not proven BARD to have been placed on Caylee's face by KC, if placed on Caylee's face at all.

    Without the duct tape and the chloroform, not only is premeditated murder off the table, but so is the lesser charge of second degree murder.

    As always, my entire post is my opinion only.
    The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.-- Gandhi

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedeviledadvocate View Post
    I think the state failed to prove premeditated murder BARD, because the chloroform evidence, at best, was weak. The state did prove it was possible that KC did a search for how to make chloroform. They also did prove there was a high level of chloroform inside the trunk of the Pontiac. They failed to tie KC to the chloroform in any way, aside from the how to make chloroform search. They failed to find any purchases for ingredients to make chloroform. They failed to find any signs that chloroform was made in the trunk, or at the A's home, or anywhere else that KC frequented. The state failed to give a reasonable explanation as to how or even why there was a high level of chloroform in the trunk. Without chloroform, the premeditation was not proven BARD.

    The duct tape. JA stated on the Dr. D show after the trial

    My feeling was always, if you look at that photograph of how the body was found, where the tape was, the skull… And if it didn’t tell the jury the same story it told me, then so be it.

    This statement by JA sounds as if he accepted the fact that the photograph of how the body was found, where the duct tape was, the skull... did not tell the jury the same story it had told him.

    When in court he presented the dramatic, one, two, then three pieces of tape over Caylee's face, as she looked into the eyes of her murderer, he was speculating, or infering. The photos of the tape/skull we were allowed to see although blurred, gave us a reasonable idea of what the jurors were seeing. The jurors obviously unanimously decided that the duct tape was not proven BARD to have been placed on Caylee's face by KC, if placed on Caylee's face at all.

    Without the duct tape and the chloroform, not only is premeditated murder off the table, but so is the lesser charge of second degree murder.

    As always, my entire post is my opinion only.
    Just making sure that you are aware that the State does not have to prove premediation in order for a defendant to be found guilty of 1st degree felony murder.

    If you already know that, I apologize. In reading your post, it doesn't seem like you know that.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bayouland View Post
    Snipped.

    Since we have this venue, I guess I will go ahead and say what I think.

    I vote 1st degree (felony murder).

    I believe FCA committed aggravated child abuse (chloroform overdose) and it resulted in Caylee's death.

    I believe she then taped her up and hid her to make it look like the kidnapping story that she so vehemently stuck to.

    JMO.
    What evidence was presented that leads you to believe that KC overdosed Caylee with chloroform? Where did she get the chloroform? When did she give Caylee and overdose of chloroform?
    The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.-- Gandhi

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bayouland View Post
    Just making sure that you are aware that the State does not have to prove premediation in order for a defendant to be found guilty of 1st degree murder.

    If you already know that, I apologize. In reading your post, it doesn't seem like you know that.
    I am aware, and no apology is necessary
    The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.-- Gandhi


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedeviledadvocate View Post
    What evidence was presented that leads you to believe that KC overdosed Caylee with chloroform? Where did she get the chloroform? When did she give Caylee and overdose of chloroform?
    Well, I could do a flip and ask what of the evidence didn't you believe but that would be kind of snarky and wouldn't be very productive.

    But, to answer your questions.
    1. I believe the evidence that was presented by Dr. Vass.
    2. I do not know where FCA obtained chloroform.
    3. I believe FCA gave Caylee chloroform prior to Caylee's death and that wasn't the first time she gave it to her.

  12. #12
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    What a great idea for a new thread. This will prevent the others from being diluted and sidetracked. Nicely done.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedeviledadvocate View Post
    I think the state failed to prove premeditated murder BARD, because the chloroform evidence, at best, was weak. The state did prove it was possible that KC did a search for how to make chloroform. They also did prove there was a high level of chloroform inside the trunk of the Pontiac. They failed to tie KC to the chloroform in any way, aside from the how to make chloroform search. They failed to find any purchases for ingredients to make chloroform. They failed to find any signs that chloroform was made in the trunk, or at the A's home, or anywhere else that KC frequented. The state failed to give a reasonable explanation as to how or even why there was a high level of chloroform in the trunk. Without chloroform, the premeditation was not proven BARD.

    The duct tape. JA stated on the Dr. D show after the trial

    My feeling was always, if you look at that photograph of how the body was found, where the tape was, the skull… And if it didn’t tell the jury the same story it told me, then so be it.

    This statement by JA sounds as if he accepted the fact that the photograph of how the body was found, where the duct tape was, the skull... did not tell the jury the same story it had told him.

    When in court he presented the dramatic, one, two, then three pieces of tape over Caylee's face, as she looked into the eyes of her murderer, he was speculating, or infering. The photos of the tape/skull we were allowed to see although blurred, gave us a reasonable idea of what the jurors were seeing. The jurors obviously unanimously decided that the duct tape was not proven BARD to have been placed on Caylee's face by KC, if placed on Caylee's face at all.

    Without the duct tape and the chloroform, not only is premeditated murder off the table, but so is the lesser charge of second degree murder.

    As always, my entire post is my opinion only.
    I watched the trial but not the Dr D show so I'm not sure what the quote means. The photos that I have seen have left me with a desire to see more, in order to help me understand the jury's decision. What I do know about the tape evidence leads me to believe in a premeditated murder.IMO.

  14. #14
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    I think we need to be careful about making assumptions about what the jury did or not think, with the exception of the jurors we have heard from, because we have no facts to support these assumptions...which makes them opinions only.
    When there is Justice - there is Peace.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
    I watched the trial but not the Dr D show so I'm not sure what the quote means. The photos that I have seen have left me with a desire to see more, in order to help me understand the jury's decision. What I do know about the tape evidence leads me to believe in a premeditated murder.IMO.
    The only thing standing between me thinking felony 1st degree murder and premeditated murder is the Zanny the Nanny story. For some reason, it makes sense to me that a young woman her age (who watches lots of movies) would resort to taping her child up to make it look like a kidnapping and then she followed through with the story for so long. That's why I think chloroform and then the tape and disposal.

    If I am wrong then she is even more evil that I already think she is.

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