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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by goathairjones View Post
    Seaslug, I was insinuating that the killer lived in Oak Beach, took his own boat to Cherry Grove, picked up the Asian cross-dresser, killed him put him into his boat, took him back to Oak Beach, loaded him into his car and then dumped him off the Ocean Parkway east of Gilgo.

    Just speculation on my part. Just trying to think of ways for a body to get from Cherry Grove to Gilgo.

    It would be very easy to load a 100 pound body into a boat. Put it in one of those large fishing coolers and nobody would be the wiser. I have a 32' Albin and I am constantly loading and unloading my boat with that big fishing cooler. And nobody ever asks me whats in there.
    I like to look at it from the behavioral point of view. The GB4 were dumped in one very specific area in one very specific way. The Manorville victims were cut to pieces, which establishes also "one very specific way". This Asian crossdresser doesn't fit either. So either, he is entirely unconnected, or, what appears to me the more probable theory, he sold himself as woman and the killer found out about, when he was already heated up. Disgust and disappointment culminate in a quick kill (aka head bashed in). But then, the killer has there a body and regardless, which of them it was, the problem is the same. It's some kind of "not counting" kill. The LISK2 couldn't put the body just in his little collection on the beach. The Manorville killer couldn't just go on with the dismembering part of his ritual. The ritual was broken because the victim didn't fit. So, what was left to do? Just drop the body somewhere, where there is no connection to the other victims (which is, why I think, the Asian is maybe a mistake of the LISK2 rather than Manorville).
    Sometimes, being a squirrel can be a real nutjob!

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by turanna25 View Post
    WM,

    I'm an ER nurse and used to see a lot of meth addicts complaining of dental issues from their chronic use. Typically chronic use would cause dental "caries" that affect all the teeth. It causes the teeth to decay. It wouldn't just affect 3 teeth in the whole persons mouth. Its incredibly unsightly and looks painful.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12271905

    Meth mouth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    ... and it would make it more probably, that teeth, especially front teeth break during a beating. The ME should be able to figure out whether there was a removal of root remains or not. But unfortunately, such details will LE not tell us.
    Sometimes, being a squirrel can be a real nutjob!

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by kemo View Post
    Watchman, you have pretty well summed up my view of the situation. The only point I might disagree is that I don't believe the Asian Male had anything to do with the others. What really connects the GB4 to all of the others is that Ocean Parkway is a very good place to dispose of a body. I think the same can be said to Manorville.

    LI is very developed with a population of 7.5 million. There are bound to be murderers looking for dumpsites and limited places where a body can quickly and easily be concealed. It stands to reason that more than one murderer (not necessarily serial killers) would pick the same stretch of Highway.

    Anyone who has followed some of the better know serial killer cases would know that "dump sites" are often the area that one would first come to after driving out of a metro area, that offer a secluded spot to pull off the road, brush or other vegetation to conceal the body, and no obvious reason that anyone would spend any time in that area.

    I think Ocean Parkway was just a suitable spot that at least 4 murders discovered over a period of at least 10 years.
    kemo-

    Think about this- what if you replace "Asian male" with female prostitute in this discussion. A fifth female found directly in the cluster of the GB4. Would you then suspect the cases are related?

    If you do, then I don't think you should completely discount my theory. The killer of the GB4 is likely to have deep sexual identity and anger issues, and a cross dressing male may be someone he would encounter, intentially or otherwise, in his lifestyle.

    This is just the way I'm thinking, waiting for more information to come in.

    The Night Watchman

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Watchman View Post
    kemo-

    Think about this- what if you replace "Asian male" with female prostitute in this discussion. A fifth female found directly in the cluster of the GB4. Would you then suspect the cases are related?

    If you do, then I don't think you should completely discount my theory. The killer of the GB4 is likely to have deep sexual identity and anger issues, and a cross dressing male may be someone he would encounter, intentially or otherwise, in his lifestyle.

    This is just the way I'm thinking, waiting for more information to come in.

    The Night Watchman
    But as far as I read, the COD is different. Blunt force trauma, is that correct? Now, that doesn't mean 100% this case is connected or unconnected, but lets speculate a moment:
    What, if the killer has NO deep sitting sexual identity issues. In this case, finding out, the girl he expected is a male, would react with disgust and rage. It would be a fast uncontrolled kill, for example by blunt trauma to the head. By my experience, there is a subtle difference in the behavior shown by the killing method and thus, I plead to make a difference between the words "power" and "control". Beatings, including kill by beating on the head, is power assurance/power gain. Typically, we would find that method of killing in disorganized or temporary raging serial killers. Take Ted Bundy as an example (I love him as example because everybody knows something about that case): Some of his vicitms were strangled, others beaten to death. But if you hold the timeline of his normal life against the timeline of his murders, you can see, that he usually beat his victims to death in phases, in which his regular life was rather chaotic and, of course, in the times of his spiraling down (that includes specifically the Sigma Chi murders). Means, there are serial killers known changing especially between beating to death and strangling, and the reason why those appear sometimes less organized is rage, but it is normally temporary rage unless you deal with someone really on the absolute low end of the organization scale.
    Strangling on the other hand is more common. BTK, Bundy, the Hillside Stranglers ... all stranglers. Strangling is control assurance/control gain. It alows to control the death of the victim, it is a lot more upfront than beating. The difference between power and control is, power is the "cure" against feelings of helplessness or rage, control points rather to sadists or deeper sitting inferiority complexes. At least in serial killers. Spree killers with inferiority complexes, due to the shorter time/kill ratio go normally for firearms and force their victims in kneeling positions (the equivalent for SKs for such poses is staging as for example in at least one of Alcala's murders).
    So, pure from the behavioral point of view, I think, your theory is possible, but the rush kill of the male doesn't point to sexual identification problems but rather to disgust because this guy knows exactly what his sexual orientation is and felt disgusted.
    Sometimes, being a squirrel can be a real nutjob!

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Brendt View Post
    ....So, pure from the behavioral point of view, I think, your theory is possible, but the rush kill of the male doesn't point to sexual identification problems but rather to disgust because this guy knows exactly what his sexual orientation is and felt disgusted.
    SBM - Welcome to all of our new members, and I am so sorry I have been missing lately (lay off's at work - I am OK; just new job duties in ADDITION to my old ones - bleh!!!). I TOTALLY agree with Peter's analysis of the Asian male. That was my first thought when I heard about an Asian male body dressed in women's clothing! I think the SK picked this guy up, and I bet he went ape poop over finding out his "date" was a guy.

  6. #36
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    I just wanted to share this...Its a blog from the poster "Jim Jones" from the Long Island Serial Killer Website. I believe he is unrelated to the victims, but like us and so many others, he has become entwined in this case, and he has direct contact with SG's family. He describes a trip he, SG's mother and a couple others took to OB where they encountered CPH and his fam...pretty interesting stuff and it confirms a bunch of things we were previously not 100% about, i.e. the leg, his daughter's home and job, his phone conversations, etc. Worth the read.

    http://jjfieldnotes.blogspot.com/

  7. #37
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    Very interesting article, man on death row in CT home invasion rape and strangle case writes letters he has killed many more along the Northeast. Also, described taking victims shoes to fulfill a fetish/fantasy. Maybe not Gilgo, but looks like a possible connection to AC?

    http://www.northjersey.com/news/crim..._killings.html

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJGuy View Post
    Very interesting article, man on death row in CT home invasion rape and strangle case writes letters he has killed many more along the Northeast. Also, described taking victims shoes to fulfill a fetish/fantasy. Maybe not Gilgo, but looks like a possible connection to AC?

    http://www.northjersey.com/news/crim..._killings.html
    Good find, NJGuy!!! Hmmm! Sounds like someone is talking about the other's stuff to save his butt, doesn't it? The foot fetish thing may also apply to the LI feet that washed up with partially painted toenails too!

    This should be posted on the AC victims thread also. MOO.

    I try and post it there a bit later if noone else has the time to do so. REal life is interfering with my sleuth time.

    wm
    ...and be sure your sin will find you out.

    Numbers,32:23

  9. #39
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    Thanks for this NJGuy, thats is a scary connection to AC...I have followed this case a little. Totally frightening pair, Hayes was a crack addict and the two met in a halfway house and totally picked the victim and random and had originally planned to only rob them, but one guy decided to rape the 11 year old and so Hayes raped the mother, to make them even. Then they set the house on fire and would've killed the whole family if the father hadn't escaped. So sad...

    apparently during Hayes sentencing, his little brother testified that Hayes tortured him as a child, by burning him and stuff, so he has had psychotic tendencies for some time. this home invasion actually happened after AC though and according to all accounts, it doesnt appear Hayes was the one who went in there with the intention of sexual assault, but was only spurred on by the act of his co-conspirator...

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley123 View Post
    Thanks for this NJGuy, thats is a scary connection to AC...I have followed this case a little. Totally frightening pair, Hayes was a crack addict and the two met in a halfway house and totally picked the victim and random and had originally planned to only rob them, but one guy decided to rape the 11 year old and so Hayes raped the mother, to make them even. Then they set the house on fire and would've killed the whole family if the father hadn't escaped. So sad...

    apparently during Hayes sentencing, his little brother testified that Hayes tortured him as a child, by burning him and stuff, so he has had psychotic tendencies for some time. this home invasion actually happened after AC though and according to all accounts, it doesnt appear Hayes was the one who went in there with the intention of sexual assault, but was only spurred on by the act of his co-conspirator...
    Thanks for your knowledge on the case Ashley123!

    wm
    ...and be sure your sin will find you out.

    Numbers,32:23


  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltzingmatilda View Post
    Good find, NJGuy!!! Hmmm! Sounds like someone is talking about the other's stuff to save his butt, doesn't it? The foot fetish thing may also apply to the LI feet that washed up with partially painted toenails too!

    This should be posted on the AC victims thread also. MOO.

    I try and post it there a bit later if noone else has the time to do so. REal life is interfering with my sleuth time.

    wm
    I followed the case and especially the trial. Hayes is a real psychopath with a whole bunch of sexual violence fantasies and that would also include shoe fetishism and similar behavior. However, Hayes wouldn't be someone staging bodies the way it happened in AC. He has just not enough remorse and not enough of a symbolic relationship to his victims beyond death. So, I believe any time, this guy killed more than the Petits, but AC feels wrong for him.
    Sometimes, being a squirrel can be a real nutjob!

  12. #42
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    I guess this should be in the AC victims thread, but ... reading the above Jones field notes made me re-think the no shoes/facing east aspect:

    This might have no other significance other than it was a practical thing to do ... shoes removed so they couldn't run easily, then after they were strangled, asphyxiated, etc, their bodies were placed face down in that watery ditch to ensure they did not revive, thus the placement for that specific purpose would naturally result in them facing east.

  13. #43

    Oak Beach / Manorville Connection...

    OK, so I've been looking at the map of the GB4 dump site. Something sticks out. Based on my gut feeling, the SK would need to know this particular stretch of the parkway REALLY well. Better, I'd say, than even an Oak Beach, Gilgo or Tobay resident. It's at a point in the road where there's a wide median with overgrowth, which would prevent someone traveling in the opposite direction (east) from seeing the SK's car as he pulled over and disposed of the bodies.

    What I noticed is that looking at Bing maps where the GB4 were found, you can see tire treads where cars have made illegal U-turns across the grassy median.

    This got me thinking.

    These tire treads can be seen both on the east and the west, meaning that there are reasons why someone would illegally turn around and go west, and reasons why someone would illegally turn around and go east. That is, assuming that these tire marks are not the tracks of LE vehicles as part of the GB4 recovery efforts, which is definitely a possibility.

    My point is, I believe that the SK may have made frequent similar illegal u-turns in the past in this exact area, or for some other reason knew this stretch of the parkway extremely well prior to selecting this particular area as the dump site.

    What are the reasons why someone traveling east would make an illegal u-turn over a grassy median? I can't figure out any great reasons, since there's an area to make a legal u-turn just west of these grassy areas. Perhaps if someone missed the legal u-turn, and didn't want to go all the way down past Cedar Beach to make the next legal u-turn, they might make that u-turn illegally over the grassy median. But that event might happen once or twice, and doesn't get to my point that the SK knew this particular stretch of road intimately.

    Why would someone traveling from the west to the east make an illegal u-turn over the grassy medians in the immediate GB4 vicinity? Again, I can't think of a reason, since there's a paved area where you can make a u-turn just a few moments past the grassy median (albeit this u-turn would be illegal since the u-turn is meant for eastbound traffic). I'd rather do that than go over grass.

    So, here's my insight. Every Sunday, at 7AM till about 10 or 11AM, there's an informal car show in the Oak Beach parking lot. Corvettes, Porches, Maseratis, Lamborghinis, etc. I also believe that bikers (Harleys, crotch rockets, etc.) and other cars (older muscle cars, etc.) also frequent this event. This is every Sunday when the weather gets to be about 50 degrees or more.

    According to some posters on car bulletin boards, the cops (troopers) show up and hang out at the entrance and hand out tickets for cars with no front license plates. They make sure that cars don't peel out when leaving the Oak Beach parking lot, because it pisses off the neighbors.

    So here's my theory. During the car show, people hop in their cars and take a quick ride down Ocean Parkway, heading west. They nicely pull out in front of the police, and as soon as they get to that specific area of the parkway, between Cedar and Gilgo where the median gets wide and where the GB4 were found, they absolutely FLOOR IT. They probably slow down before the road thins out again, and my guess is that they make an illegal u-turn, over pavement, where that westerly-most u-turn is that's supposed to be used for eastbound traffic.

    After their little drag race, they head back to the Oak Beach parking lot, wave to the police and head back to their parking spot.

    What I found that was VERY interesting is that after the bikers go to the Oak Beach parking lot, it seems that they head over to The Maples in Manorville. The Maples is a bar located right around the corner from Halsey Manor Road, where Jessica Taylor was found. Interestingly, The Maples used to be a brothel.

    This connection between the GB4 dump site and Manorville seems meaningful to me, even though the COD is radically different.

    Here's some links to my research:

    http://www.hdforums.com/forum/genera...oceanside.html

    http://themanorvillemural.com/The%20Maples.htm

    http://www.lidragracing.com/showthre...to-a-BAD-Light

    Link to the GB4 map:
    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...83c01d&t=h&z=9

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Brendt View Post
    I followed the case and especially the trial. Hayes is a real psychopath with a whole bunch of sexual violence fantasies and that would also include shoe fetishism and similar behavior. However, Hayes wouldn't be someone staging bodies the way it happened in AC. He has just not enough remorse and not enough of a symbolic relationship to his victims beyond death. So, I believe any time, this guy killed more than the Petits, but AC feels wrong for him.
    HI PB! At one time you referred to this killer as a sadist, IIRC. Do you think he is a sadist or a sexual sadist? Or is there a difference? I ask because I've had the same feeling that this unusual person who is killing our girls is a sadist who may film his terrorist acts and dirty deeds against these women.

    Yesterday a fellow sleuth started a thread in the crimes forum about this sick you know what whose case has been re-opened in NM. He is dead now so this is in no way connected to our LI case but the case has been reopened as he is now suspected for up to 40 murders in NM.

    I found some parallels to dicussions and possibilities we have had on this forum, ie., possibly more than one person, possibly connected to LE or state parks, (or pretending to be a lawman by flashing a badge), possible connection to medical field or access to medical supplies/drugs, possible same dump site for all victims, at least one of his victims was a prostitute, another was picked up from a bar.

    I would appreciate yours or anyone elses thoughts regarding the Li sk being a sadist like this dude or perhaps a copycat. Are there any other commonalities that I missed. Please fee;l free to point out. Thanks all!

    Here's a link....

    GRAPHIC DETAILS!

    http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/s...y/1_index.html

    BTW,
    At least his middle name is not Wayne!

    wm

    BTW Welcome back reannan!
    Last edited by waltzingmatilda; 10-11-2011 at 05:37 PM. Reason: correction
    ...and be sure your sin will find you out.

    Numbers,32:23

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by inspctrgadget View Post

    So, here's my insight. Every Sunday, at 7AM till about 10 or 11AM, there's an informal car show in the Oak Beach parking lot. Corvettes, Porches, Maseratis, Lamborghinis, etc. I also believe that bikers (Harleys, crotch rockets, etc.) and other cars (older muscle cars, etc.) also frequent this event. This is every Sunday when the weather gets to be about 50 degrees or more.

    According to some posters on car bulletin boards, the cops (troopers) show up and hang out at the entrance and hand out tickets for cars with no front license plates. They make sure that cars don't peel out when leaving the Oak Beach parking lot, because it pisses off the neighbors.

    So here's my theory. During the car show, people hop in their cars and take a quick ride down Ocean Parkway, heading west. They nicely pull out in front of the police, and as soon as they get to that specific area of the parkway, between Cedar and Gilgo where the median gets wide and where the GB4 were found, they absolutely FLOOR IT. They probably slow down before the road thins out again, and my guess is that they make an illegal u-turn, over pavement, where that westerly-most u-turn is that's supposed to be used for eastbound traffic.

    After their little drag race, they head back to the Oak Beach parking lot, wave to the police and head back to their parking spot.
    Inspector,

    Sorry but I just don't see this happening. I attend those Sunday morning car shows on a regular basis. And none of those car enthusiasts are taking their prized possessions over the center median where the GB4 were found!

    They all use the paved u-turns. There's enough tickets being handed out down there just for missing front plates and show-boating. None of these guys would risk a ticket and risk getting stuck in the center median just to turn around.

    Just so you know, the Town of Babylon hosts concerts in the summer at Cedar and Overlook beach. And the crowds can get pretty big if they get the right band to play (Big Shot Billy Joel Tribute Band, etc.) and cars park all over the center median for those events. So I wouldn't read too much into the car tracks on the center median. Probably has nothing to do with the case.

    You can be sure that the SK is following all the traffic rules when he makes his dumps. He learned a lesson from Joel Rifkin. Follow the traffic rules and check your vehicle for minor infractions before you go on the road. I am sure that he does both.

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