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Thread: Conrad Murray trial -Day nine.

  1. #226
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    By the way, I recently purchase "This is it" dvd from Amazon and it is a mind blowing experience. It is bits of his rehearsals for his tour, shows how he interfaces with his people,etc. Truly an amazing dvd that honed right in on MJ's perfectionism and energy. I wanted to cry watching this dvd, he really was an extraordinary entertainer. I never got the chance to see him in person, but am grateful to have grown up with him...and will miss him terribly.

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  3. #227
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    In my early days of nursing, a board was kept near the bed incase the patient arrested (pulse, breathing stopped)
    and needed CPR. The board was placed under the patient's back.

    Using the board for CPR has since been stopped, as it was proved to be ineffective.

    When taking my yearly CPR certification class, there has been the occassional question:
    "What if I can't get the victim on the floor or ground?"

    Answer: "Unless he's pinned in an automobile or otherwise trapped somewhere, you just do it!
    You lift, push or pull the victim/patient to a hard, flat surface. You must do it for CPR to be effective!"

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  5. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melanie View Post
    Well he got the milk right. Didn't MJ refer to propofol as his "milk".

    Do you want some cookies with that milk?



    Mel

    Got milk?

    It's also called "milk of amnesia" since it does make the patient feel that no time has passed during the surgery & wakes up pretty alert. Er, ah, at least that's how it is in a surgical suite and later in a place that's full of monitors & nurses and called a Recovery Room.

    Poor MJ. What a waste of a human being.


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  7. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by peace9274 View Post
    In my early days of nursing, a board was kept near the bed incase the patient arrested (pulse, breathing stopped)
    and needed CPR. The board was placed under the patient's back.

    Using the board for CPR has since been stopped, as it was proved to be ineffective.

    When taking my yearly CPR certification class, there has been the occassional question:
    "What if I can't get the victim on the floor or ground?"

    Answer: "Unless he's pinned in an automobile or otherwise trapped somewhere, you just do it!
    You lift, push or pull the victim/patient to a hard, flat surface. You must do it for CPR to be effective!"
    Personally, I think MJ was dead for almost an hour before Dr. Murray checked on him. He died during Dr. Murry's many cell phone calls. The EMTs testified his eyes were dry indicating he had been dead quite awhile. Of course this is just my opinion.
    You can't revive a person who has been dead for almost an hour and Dr. Murray knew there was no hope, but didn't want to believe it. He was desperate.

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  9. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by borndem View Post
    Nurse Isabelle, I've heard of the paradox effect mainly having to do with benzodiazepines -- is this medical phenomenon (my words, because that's how it seems to me!) more common with benzodiazepines, or is it because they are so widely prescribed?
    It happens with a lot of medications that have a sedative effect and is very common in the elderly.

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  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lqqkout View Post
    Personally, I think MJ was dead for almost an hour before Dr. Murray checked on him. He died during Dr. Murry's many cell phone calls. The EMTs testified his eyes were dry indicating he had been dead quite awhile. Of course this is just my opinion.
    You can't revive a person who has been dead for almost an hour and Dr. Murray knew there was no hope, but didn't want to believe it. He was desperate.

    I totally agree. And I'm sure that Murray knew MJ had been dead for sometime &
    would not be able to be revived. Thus the reason he didn't perform CPR correctly, if at all!

    But, despite that MJ was NOT placed on the floor, he HAD to say he made an attempt at CPR.
    He had to make it look like MJ had only been not breathing with no pulse for 2 minutes.

    But so many dumb excuses through out the interview, about why MJ was not placed on the floor,
    why he didn't call 911, why he didn't tell someone else to call 911... and why he even chose to use propofol.

    As a cardiologist, heart surgeon, I'm sure he's seen patients arrest during and immediately following surgery... he knows the routine!

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  13. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabelle View Post
    It happens with a lot of medications that have a sedative effect and is very common in the elderly.
    And it's different than a patient's tolerance for a medication... which is a patient needing a
    higher dose to obtain the same effect as the lower dose he/she originally needed.
    Paradox is having the complete opposite effect desired. Make sense?

    I had a paradox effect with Benadryl years ago. I had been working the night shift and couldn't
    sleep after working all night, so I took Benadryl. In the beginning, it made me very sleepy and I slept.
    But it eventually made me feel like I had taken speed; was wide awake & wired!

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  15. #233
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    If Murray and the DT will claim that MJ gave himself the lethal dose of propofol,
    I just hope that the jurors will see that it's impossible & doesn't make sense.

    I compare it to a victim being shot to death with 5 bullet wounds. And then the witness
    (a spouse?) says that the victim committed suicide or accidently shot himself 5 times!!!

    Victim in either case... giving self a lethal dose of propofol or shooting self 5 times...
    he'd be dead before either could be accomplished!

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  17. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plumeria5 View Post
    Very true. And...CM said if he would have called 911 he would have been "neglecting" MJ. I believe at that point he already had for probably 45 minutes.
    Yep, Plumeria -- I think MJ was dead by 11:30 that morning. Even the EMT's thought he had been dead for about an hour when they arrived at 12:26, and they see this kind of thing often.

    The arrogance of that man. He bit off wa-a-a-a-ay more than he could chew. And he needs to pay for it.


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  19. #235
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    I keep wondering how and why a cardiologist could be so neglectful, so irresponsible to take on the case of being PMD to MJ
    ... and how he could administer all the meds he did and then leave the room for such a long period of time. And his bizarre
    behavior after finding MJ dead. And his outlandish lies & odd demeanor the days following. Plus his questionable private life.

    The only sensible & logical answer I can come up with is that he (Murray) was/is taking drugs.
    Last edited by peace9274; 10-08-2011 at 01:19 AM.

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  21. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by peace9274 View Post
    And it's different than a patient's tolerance for a medication... which is a patient needing a
    higher dose to obtain the same effect as the lower dose he/she originally needed.
    Paradox is having the complete opposite effect desired. Make sense?

    I had a paradox effect with Benadryl years ago. I had been working the night shift and couldn't
    sleep after working all night, so I took Benadryl. In the beginning, it made me very sleepy and I slept.
    But it eventually made me feel like I had taken speed; was wide awake & wired!
    Me, too! I had surgery and was prescribed promethazine for vomiting. I had nightmares, insomnia, the shakes, and I couldn't think straight. Went to the ER and the doctor said that is notorious for having those side effects. It took several days for the symptoms to dissipate.

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  23. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by peace9274 View Post
    And it's different than a patient's tolerance for a medication... which is a patient needing a
    higher dose to obtain the same effect as the lower dose he/she originally needed.
    Paradox is having the complete opposite effect desired. Make sense?

    I had a paradox effect with Benadryl years ago. I had been working the night shift and couldn't
    sleep after working all night, so I took Benadryl. In the beginning, it made me very sleepy and I slept.
    But it eventually made me feel like I had taken speed; was wide awake & wired!
    Well that explains my own situation. When I have a cold I cannot take anything that says it can cause drowsiness. That eliminates most choices. I now rely on a hot toddy for relief.

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  25. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lqqkout View Post
    By the way, I recently purchase "This is it" dvd from Amazon and it is a mind blowing experience. It is bits of his rehearsals for his tour, shows how he interfaces with his people,etc. Truly an amazing dvd that honed right in on MJ's perfectionism and energy. I wanted to cry watching this dvd, he really was an extraordinary entertainer. I never got the chance to see him in person, but am grateful to have grown up with him...and will miss him terribly.
    I remember when it was released in 2010, and me and my son decided to have parent time! This was only 6 months after MJ passed, so it was still quite raw. What an incredible portrait of the magic that was MJ. I remember watching my son wipe a tear when the final music video was played.

    What an incredible gift he gave us!

    MOO

    Mel

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  27. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by azwriter View Post
    I'm a fan of MJ's genius, but when it comes to common sense, who does this? Who spends their night hooked up to an IV receiving medication to help you sleep when it really is a drug used to put you under for surgery. Isn't this bizarre to anyone else?
    Well, bizarre pretty much summed up MJ in a nutshell well before CM entered the scene. I can kind of see how using Propofal to induce "sleep" would have seemed logical to MJ. He was so insulated from the rest of the world and had so much money (actually, he was considerably in debt at the time, but it didn't seem to cramp his style much), and star power that he probably created his own reality. Just look at his years at Neverland. Like many stars, he considered himself to be outside the rules of average people, and most of the time he was never called to task over any of it; if he was, he simply cut that person(s) out of his life with the flick of a finger.

    For whatever reason, he desperately needed sleep. Propofal acts quickly and leaves the system quickly. While it wouldn't be normal sleep, it would allow his body to relax significantly for X number of hours and he would awaken as soon as it it stopped entering his system. On the surface of it, if you had the means to do it and the IMMENSE pressure of having to perform almost every day, it seems almost logical. Almost. One less thing to have to deal with. You don't even need to REALLY sleep; you can just pay someone to do it FOR you. For someone in show business, it could be rationalized by lumping it into the category of "maintaining my instrument", like getting a manicure, facial and massage.

    That would normally be the point where the rest of us, rationalizing the logic of using Propofal as a sleep aid, would shake our heads to rid ourselves of the silly notion that it could possibly be that simple. Most people would consider the downsides to weigh more heavily than the upsides, i.e., lots of needles, collapsed veins, chafing nasal canulas, condom catheters, the fact that enough anesthesia to perform major abdominal surgery might be a tad bit overkill (so to speak), the occasional need for CPR (and the resulting cracked ribs), and the higher-than-usual possibility of DEATH, not to mention that sharp stinging sensation.

    All things considered, while the sleep-eating thing is really annoying, I'll take Ambien over Proprofal any day.

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  29. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    It sounds like someone is having a party in the hallway during this part of the tape.
    I was beginning to wonder if they were out by the pool!

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  31. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Murray said he could not move MJ off the bed by himself. What is he over six foot tall and probably weighs twice as much as MJ but can't move him off the bed by himself.
    Seriously! I was thinking the same thing; there comes a point where dragging/dumping him onto the floor, if necessary, would work.

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  33. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe jones View Post
    missed a bit due to bathroom break (but unlike CM I don't have a sedated patient under my care)

    compressed MJ, house is closed at night, just his kids and me in house, I ventilated him orally, his chest rising, phone never worked in house, if I called 911 I would be neglecting him, I continued CPR with my left hand and called his assistant MichaelAmir, ( his explanation for not calling 911 or asking Amir to do so is bull s'it which I can smell from here)
    As far as the phone thing, it was a pretty lame excuse, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the lawyers will hammer home that HIS cell phones were in the 702 (Las Vegas) area code, so the call would have gone to the Nevada Highway Patrol for processing, not the California Highway Patrol. Did he think the NHP (or whatever they call it there) would say "Sorry, not my table" and hang up on him? No, they would figure out how to route the call to the CHP through their own dispatch center, and it would STILL be faster than waiting for MJ's private Security to call 911.

    As for the excuse of having to stop to explain the problem so that Security could sufficiently describe it to 911, the words "not breathing/CPR" would have been sufficient enough explanation to 911 in the short term. He did not know the address, but he would have known the street name and could have given a description. He could have put it on speakerphone and let them know when the sirens were closing in. Hell, all he had to do was tell them to just keep driving down the street until they saw balloons, presents and a small crowd of obsessed people dressed like MJ milling around outside a closed gate. Yup, that's the place, all right.

    Even toddlers know how to call 911. Dr. Feelgood knew he was in deep doo-doo-feces and THAT is why he did not call 911 right away.

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  35. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by octobermoon View Post
    He did give Flumazonel.
    And now he's dishing out Bulcrapadol.

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  37. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe jones View Post
    I love MJ he was my friend, I wanted to help him, he was a single parent,
    So were most of CM's baby mamas, I'm guessing (7 kids with 5 women); his wife excepted, of course.

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  39. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes View Post
    The pressure he was under was of his own design. He wanted to be the big cheese. Not only known as MJs personal doctor but meeting and hobnobbing with the celebrities......especially the ladies. As JVM says; 'Murray is a player."
    Suddenly Shaggy singing "It Wasn't Me" is running through my mind. Followed by Weird Al Yankovich singing "She's Gotta Pee" to the same tune.

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  41. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Sedonia Sunset View Post
    As far as the phone thing, it was a pretty lame excuse, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the lawyers will hammer home that HIS cell phones were in the 702 (Las Vegas) area code, so the call would have gone to the Nevada Highway Patrol for processing, not the California Highway Patrol. Did he think the NHP (or whatever they call it there) would say "Sorry, not my table" and hang up on him? No, they would figure out how to route the call to the CHP through their own dispatch center, and it would STILL be faster than waiting for MJ's private Security to call 911.

    .
    i don't think even this defense will try to use that excuse. A 911 call is routed by the cell towers near you, not the area code of your cell number.

  42. #247
    Did anyone see Dr. Drew last night...he and some other docs were going through the autopsy. MJ's lungs were in really bad shape, and the problems were chronic. The anesthesiologist said this was likely from being put under for long periods of time without the breathing assistance they use in hospital settings. I have no doubt that MJ was using this crazy scheme for years. But that does not justify the defendant doing it, nor using that powerful drug in a totally irresponsible manner, not to mention leaving the patient unattended. I think the claim that MJ wanted to shoot himself up with this is really damning, because it makes leaving the room even more negligent. Like leaving a suicidal person with a loaded gun.

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  44. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lqqkout View Post
    Propofol was the ONLY drug that would ensure MJ could sleep. If you consider that being an addict, so be it, I don't. the doctor you are referring to was shooting him up with Demerol, which tell me MJ could not sleep no matter what. One does get desperate when one cannot sleep and will take anything and everything. I have had a shot of Demerol and it knocked me right out. I think MJ could not sleep no matter what he took. I do not consider him am addict.
    I have felt from the very beginning that the Demerol is the biggest red herring in the case to date.

    Judge Pastor is a very fair Judge and if Klein had truly been giving him Demerol he would have thought it was necessary that he testify. It was like when JP was considering whether edited out footage of This Is It would come in. Once he viewed the entire 14-16 hours of tape there wasnt a thing on there that would have helped the DT.

    And I believe once he let the DT look at Klein's recent records there was no evidence of Demerol being given shortly before his death. IM was noted only and Botox is an intramuscular injection. Now of course he could have given him a sedative of some kind to calm his anxiety but imo it sure wasnt Demerol.

    The DT is blowing smoke.

    I do not see MJ as an addict. No addict leaves loads of pills laying around without taking them. They will take anything and every pill they can find even those that do not even get them high. I think they are also addicted to the pill taking as much as they are the affects of the drugs.

    And by Murrays own words MJ did not want these other medications.

    While propofol is not a sleep aide I do believe if the person taking it feels rested then it works for them and so many with serious insomnia issues are desperate to do anything in order to get some semblance of sleep.
    "Pardon Our Noise, It's the Sound of Freedom" USMC New River Air Station, Jacksonville, North Carolina

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  46. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by peace9274 View Post
    I keep wondering how and why a cardiologist could be so neglectful, so irresponsible to take on the case of being PMD to MJ
    ... and how he could administer all the meds he did and then leave the room for such a long period of time. And his bizarre
    behavior after finding MJ dead. And his outlandish lies & odd demeanor the days following. Plus his questionable private life.

    The only sensible & logical answer I can come up with is that he (Murray) was/is taking drugs.
    The drugs prescribed to Paul Farance and Omar could have be Conrad's aliases. It is a simple and convenient way for Conrad to get Rx meds -no questions asked and no trail. It would be interesting to know who paid for the drugs supplied to these two fictitious individuals, where the drugs were purchased, and how they were delivered. Alot of professional people take Rx meds and hide their drug addiction and CM had the means and power to do this. Focusing attention on MJ's drug addiction allows CM to hide his.

    The bedroom Michael was found dead in was not the room he normally slept in so why were all those Rx bottles and medical supplies in the master bedroom for one night only? I am not convinced Propofol accidently killed Michael but I believe he was given an overdose of drugs so he could "sleep in heavenly peace".

    Alot of people preplan their funeral and express their wishes orally and in writing. Michael was 50 y.o. and so this is something he would do and it makes sense Michael would want to die at home and choose the master bedroom rather than die in his own bedroom. Conrad said loud music was playing so maybe these are the conditions Michael wanted when he exited the earth plane. So many people including superstars commit suicide when their bodies begin to decline so they decide to recycle it and begin anew.

    Because Conrad gave Michael meds and left the room perhaps he was fufilling Michael's wishes which is a crazy decision to make because of the price he will have to pay; 4 years in prison, unable to practice medicine in the future, loss of income etc.

    Did Michael have accidental life insurance coverage in effect prior to his death?

    I am glad we can watch the trial; I find it to be an interesting and empowering experience.

    JMO

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  48. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by outofstatelawyer View Post
    Did anyone see Dr. Drew last night...he and some other docs were going through the autopsy. MJ's lungs were in really bad shape, and the problems were chronic. The anesthesiologist said this was likely from being put under for long periods of time without the breathing assistance they use in hospital settings. I have no doubt that MJ was using this crazy scheme for years. But that does not justify the defendant doing it, nor using that powerful drug in a totally irresponsible manner, not to mention leaving the patient unattended. I think the claim that MJ wanted to shoot himself up with this is really damning, because it makes leaving the room even more negligent. Like leaving a suicidal person with a loaded gun.
    I cant and dont watch Dr. Drew and personally I think he is absolutely clueless and shouldnt even discuss criminal cases.

    I don't think there is any proof that MJ was doing it continuously. It seems he does this when he is about to embark on a tour where he knows his rest is most important and vital to keep his stamina up.

    But it sure could have affected his lungs with all that Murray had been giving him for 6 weeks. I don't think his lungs were in bad shape though. It did not state that in the AR and many have chronic inflammation in their lungs but live to be a ripe old age.

    He certainly wasnt before he met Murray because once he knew he was going to make his comeback tour is when he started trying to find someone to administer it.

    Dr. Adams did say that Murray has been trying to get someone to use Propofol on MJ since 2007 but he couldn't find anyone to do it.

    IMO
    "Pardon Our Noise, It's the Sound of Freedom" USMC New River Air Station, Jacksonville, North Carolina

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