The Search Dogs

Please discuss the search dogs here. They have been at the home site (twice?) I think. On the first day them a day(s) later and their handlers were wearing CSI suits to prevent cross scents from confusing the dogs. I don't remember exact details, so we need some links. Thanks for your help.

If baby Lisa died in the house, LE knows it.

I missed all of the search dog stuff. I would imagine they used a cadaver dog as well?

CarrieBean said:

If baby Lisa died in the house, LE knows it.

I missed all of the search dog stuff. I would imagine they used a cadaver dog as well?

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I would hope that LE used cadaver dogs at some point. I don't know.

Hopefully some knowledgeable peeps will weigh in. I know an SAR expert posted recently about how soon a dog can pick up on decomp. Would love to find that post.

Here is one account of search dogs being used:


Earlier Wednesday, FBI agents clad in white, plastic suits used search dogs as they went into the family's home, a light-green ranch-style home in a cozy neighborhood along a winding street. Young said the suits were to hide the agents' scent from the dogs so they could get original scents of the girl.

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Missing-Missouri-baby-s-parents-make-tearful-plea-2203381.php

I cant tell but this may be the same day:


Young said search dogs are going through the woods near Lisa Irwin’s home for a second and third time and officers are canvassing her Northland neighborhood and knocking on doors in hopes of finding the missing girl

http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/ne...e-ruling-nothing-out-in-search-for-lisa-irwin

Ok, I am really hoping that the whole suit thing was misquoted. Any properly trained scent specific dog should be able to eliminate all other scent and focus on who they are looking for. I'm really hoping this was just a case of bad reporting. If not, I need to find a brick wall to beat my head against... again.

Trying to dig up a great study that's in PDF format regarding accuracy and time, at the moment it seems to be lost in my files somewhere! I've posted it on here before and now can't find the stinkin' thing!

sarx said:

Ok, I am really hoping that the whole suit thing was misquoted. Any properly trained scent specific dog should be able to eliminate all other scent and focus on who they are looking for. I'm really hoping this was just a case of bad reporting. If not, I need to find a brick wall to beat my head against... again.

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The media may have made that assumption. I did see a video of the FBI agents in white suits but they were all conducting a search of the exterior of the house using a light and other equipment. I did not see one with a dog.

I agree, Sarx.. I found the "suits" donned on agents and dogs to prevent scent confusion to be a very confusing and unnecessary route taken for these particular dogs.. Just as you remarked properly trained dogs DO NOT NEED SUCH "PRECAUTIONS" TAKEN!! they are more than capable of not being affected by other scents/odors..(ATLEAST as far as I know from what I undrstand about search dogs.. And that's only thanks to you and Oriah :blowskisses: )

Apart from that issue from the few articles I've read thus far I have not seen ANYTHING Indicating that they have actually used cadaver dogs(tho that doesn't necessarily mean that they WERE NOT used).. I've just not found anything stating they had.. The reason this concerns me is that with seemingly so much focus being on the mom I think most realize that ATLEAST puts the scenario of Lisa deceased on the table, jmo! And that could be due to accident, overdose, or homicide)..atleast that's how I see it and with that being, if even a slight possibility I would think that cadaver dogs would served a very Important and IMO necessary purpose in searching the home/property/vehicles for any hits/alerts for human decomp.. IMO this is definitely important and could/would change the entire direction of the investigation.. Because "if" the dog(s) were to alert for human decomp in/around the home.. And.. Well.. We have a 10 month old child that has been missing since Oct 3/4.. That's some very real evidence indicative of Lisa being deceased.. Jmo!

So, I do very much wonder if they have only used the trail scenting dogs(that are given a scent article of Lisa and track her) or if they have infact brought in cadaver/HRD dogs(Human Remains Dog) and reporters just do not know or did not specify that both type SAR dogs have been used in this case?? .. As I said IMO it's a very good indicator one way or another and am curious to know if or when they were used and of course extremely curious to know that if they were used were there any positive hits/alerts for human decomp??

** not sure if this would help you, Sarx, as I know you're searching for the good info detailing about the SAR dogs but I know in Lauren Giddings threads you posted several very informative links with tons of info.. So you may check your posts there for the link you can't locate..
Hope that Helps

LOL, glad someone knows where I posted stuff, cuz clearly I don't!

It certainly is not too late to bring in HRD dogs.....

Sarx I have a question.

I know an S and R dog tracks according to scents/cells given off by a person as they move through an area.

My question would be if a dead body is moved, would a cadavar dog be able to track that?

mysteriew said:

Sarx I have a question.

I know an S and R dog tracks according to scents/cells given off by a person as they move through an area.

My question would be if a dead body is moved, would a cadavar dog be able to track that?

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That depends on a lot of things and would really depend on the circumstances in which the body is moved, but yes, sometimes it is possible.

sarx said:

That depends on a lot of things and would really depend on the circumstances in which the body is moved, but yes, sometimes it is possible.

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In a situation like moving a body through a house and out the front door?

Would blankets be enough to shield the trail or would plastic work?

Oooh, I hate answering these kinds of questions for several reasons. So much depends on circumstance and on training.

Could a dog hit on multiple spots in essence creating a trail? Yes.

Are there things you can do to help mask it making it difficult for dogs? Sure.

Do dogs have a REALLY good sense of smell? Yep.

I hate to be vague, but all sorts of people read here...

I havent heard if the dogs tracked a scent out of the house or anything ? I think we should start emailing us some reporters to get them to ask these important questions.

I'm off to look for any articles....

ETA: If the dogs did not track her outside or outside of the property boundaries then I would assume she was put in a auto and driven away, or worse wrapped in something ...

Something else that is VERY important here and in all baby cases is that babies smell DIFFERENT. They smell different to us. We have 5 million olfactory receptors, dogs have over 220 million. Babies probably don't even smell human to them... lol.
Why is this important? Because if handlers do not train using babies (and it can be difficult to find a baby for this purpose), then it is entirely plausible that a SAR dog would be confused when asked to search for a baby. I think their scent reacts, disperses and even possibly disappears differently than those that are older.

SNIPPED--------------------------------------------------------------------


Posted on Wed, Oct. 05, 2011 11:28 PM


More than 300 law enforcement officers have been involved in the search. Authorities have conducted three shoulder-to-shoulder searches in woods near the home and have deployed police dogs several times.

“Unfortunately, none of those have really led us anywhere,” Young said.

On Wednesday, FBI personnel in protective clothing gathered original scents from the house so they would have something for specially trained dogs to track. Those dogs started working late Wednesday morning, Young said.

Lisa’s parents continue to cooperate with investigators, Young said.

“That being said, everything is still on the table; we are not ruling out anything,” he said. “If we had more to go on, we could start eliminating some things. But we frankly don’t have anything that justifies elimination

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/05/3190150/as-search-continues-parents-plead.html#ixzz1aVmOM5P8

Published October 06, 2011
| FoxNews.com


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FBI agents clad in white plastic suits used search dogs earlier Wednesday as they went into the family's light-green ranch-style home in a cozy neighborhood along a winding street. An FBI spokeswoman declined to discuss details of the investigation.

Young said the suits were to hide the FBI agents' scent from the dogs so they could get original scents of the girl. He also said investigators interviewed the girl's parents until about 10:30 p.m. Tuesday, but did not take them into custody.

"Everything we've thought of doing we've probably done two or three times," he said. "Over 300 law enforcement officers have been involved. They've walked a wooded area three times in shoulder-to-shoulder searches, taken dogs in three times -- different dogs each time -- and none of those led us anywhere

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/05/kansas-city-police-say-parents-missing-baby-cooperative/

And there is my favorite line.... "Police dogs".
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Police K9, in fact that's where my career started. They are invaluable. They are a good resource to take out if they are available immediately, but they are NOT SAR dogs. While they are out doing an initial search SAR dogs should be being called in. If the police K9 find the MP, awesome, everyone gets to go home. If they do not however, I would NEVER consider an area or trail cleared based on those searches.

sarx said:

And there is my favorite line.... "Police dogs".
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Police K9, in fact that's where my career started. They are invaluable. They are a good resource to take out if they are available immediately, but they are NOT SAR dogs. While they are out doing an initial search SAR dogs should be being called in. If the police K9 find the MP, awesome, everyone gets to go home. If they do not however, I would NEVER consider an area or trail cleared based on those searches.

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Do you think that "police dogs" is sometimes used as a catch-all phrase, as in "dogs which are somehow associated with police or something police are doing"? Sorry if that question is too general...I just wondered if articles sometimes use the term in that way.