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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21merc7 View Post
    I know you did not intend for this to be funny, but I got a chuckle out of it. Especially minivan and lorax.

    You are correct, the defense is trying to confuse, to create that "reasonable doubt." It will be difficult regardless of how medically educated or not the jurors are because of the one big thing. Propofol.

    I think most all of us, besides the medical professionals here, had no idea about propofol before MJ's death. At least I didn't. I then understood it is an anesthetic, something to be used for surgery only ===== what even the medically uneducated juror's understand.

    So, defense would like it if they find Murray not guilty of manslaughter, but, it would be nice if they let him continue to practice medicine too. Confuse them with who gave it and why, maybe they will be so boggled that the manslaughter gets tossed out of their minds. Tell them MJ did it to himself, maybe they will just say "Aw heck with it, it is MJ's fault, let Murray continue to practice."

    BUT, how can the jurors overlook the obvious. MJ could not give himself the propofol. MJ hired Murray to give it to him and to watch him while under propofol as he knew it could have "some" consequences. (This is why they explain this stuff to you and you sign forms about it in the hospital.) How can the jurors overlook the lorazapam (spelling?), the lack of proper monitoring equipment, the texts and phone calls, the one handed chest compressions, Murray not calling 911 and talking to the chef instead, and the list goes on.

    I feel for the defense in that this is one heck of tough case to defend. I'm sure they have chosen jurors as wisely as possible, but if there is any little doubt, all the jurors have to do is request to review the evidence, the transcripts, the autopsy report(s) and then that fine line suddenly vanishes.
    It's used for procedures where you have to be put to sleep for a few minutes. I always had a breathing tube when they gave it, plus a ton of monitoring equipment attached.
    I think it is given in tiny increments, just enough to put you out and keep you out until the procedure is done. It is not given all at once.
    I agree with everything else you said.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    I noted one thing the defense tried to sway the jury with today. They acted all butt hurt that LE did not watch surveillance videos AFTER the death, because they implied that anyone could have come in and tampered with the doctor's medical bags. They tried to implicate the Jackson family in doing so, by pointing out that they found the pot in another suitcase in a closet. Thus by inference, they must have found this closet and looked inside of and messed with these medical bags too. I hope the jury does not accept that.
    Didn't the Jacksons find the pot in the master bathroom in one of MJs travel kits?

    IMO
    "Pardon Our Noise, It's the Sound of Freedom" USMC New River Air Station, Jacksonville, North Carolina

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by TxLady2 View Post
    It's used for procedures where you have to be put to sleep for a few minutes. I always had a breathing tube when they gave it, plus a ton of monitoring equipment attached.
    I think it is given in tiny increments, just enough to put you out and keep you out until the procedure is done. It is not given all at once.
    I agree with everything else you said.
    Exactly. That is what the head ER doctor at UCLA hospital testified to.

    She said you draw some up depending on the weight of the individual but you only release a little at a time and may not even need to use all the amount that was drawn up.

    Of course she said the way they know if the patient needs more is because an anesthesiologist is there watching the patient along with the staff at all times.

    IMO
    "Pardon Our Noise, It's the Sound of Freedom" USMC New River Air Station, Jacksonville, North Carolina

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by TxLady2 View Post
    OMG! Thank you for this laugh so early in the morning!!! Post of the day!

    That is a defense lawyer's mantra: If you can't persuade them with facts, then confuse them with bullsheet.
    Flanagan gets on my nerves. Not too crazy about the other defense guy but Flanagan has that scowl on his face all the time, and he confuses himself, I think.
    I don't believe for one second that MJ injected himself with propofol. I've had it several times, the second it hits the blood stream you're out. Gone. The syringe would still have been in his hand, and he would have been slumped, not laying out straight with his palms up. Nope, never happened.
    Propofol is not a sleeping medication. It is an anesthetic. It knocks you out, but that is not sleep, that's a semi-coma. I never feel rested once I wake up, I just feel dopey.
    Michael would have to be a Houdini to be able to do all this and then die laid out straight out on his back with both palms up.

    IMO
    "Pardon Our Noise, It's the Sound of Freedom" USMC New River Air Station, Jacksonville, North Carolina

  5. #185
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    Lightbulb

    I caught part of one of the infotainment shows, can't remember which one, I was only half paying attention. Beth the blond lady actually made sense, she said that it looks like the defense has abandoned the MJ gave himself propofol and are now working with the idea that MJ took 8 lorazepam pills himself when Murray left the room for those 2 minutes. That would explain why defense was doing all those hypotheticals with 8 pills taken by mouth.

    That thought went fleetingly through my mind when I was watching yesterday, but then I got bogged down in all the other "minivan" talk and forgot it. I will add my thanks for that gem too.

    So anyway after she said that it made sense. Defense does appear to have abandoned the MJ gave himself propofol defense in favor of MJ took 8 lorazepam tablets by mouth defense.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes View Post
    Didn't the Jacksons find the pot in the master bathroom in one of MJs travel kits?

    IMO
    Yes they did, along with several empty cigarette boxes. I agree with Katy the defense would love the jury to take the leap and believe that some one else planted all that medical equipment in the other closet because of no security in place at the house. The only problem with that is Murray admitted on his LE interview tape that those bags were his along with the paltry amount of medical equipment found inside them. Hopefully the jury will see right through that tactic.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    I noted one thing the defense tried to sway the jury with today. They acted all butt hurt that LE did not watch surveillance videos AFTER the death, because they implied that anyone could have come in and tampered with the doctor's medical bags. They tried to implicate the Jackson family in doing so, by pointing out that they found the pot in another suitcase in a closet. Thus by inference, they must have found this closet and looked inside of and messed with these medical bags too. I hope the jury does not accept that.
    IIRC, this suitcase with the pot, along with a couple of empty cigarette packs were found in Bedroom #1 -- MJ's actual b/r and his sanctum sanctorum -- the room where no one goes except MJ. B/R #2, the one where he died, was used as the "treatment room" (my words) and it was where CM usually slept, according to CM. (I certainly could be mistaken on all of this...)

    But either way, you're right -- the DT was at least trying to sow another seed of doubt. (Necessary, IMO, since their gun has so far been shooting a buncha blanks...)

    I'm with you, Katydid, I hope the jury is too sharp to fall for that -- seems to me that they would be by now, since those same ol' tactics surely have become all-too-familiar to them. Let's hope!!


    All posts, unless attributed, are "just my humble opinion," and they are to remain here in Websleuths and are not to be used elsewhere. Thank you.
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  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by borndem View Post
    The only gastric stats were lidocaine at 1.6mg & propofol at 0.13mg. Nothing else was measured.
    I do believe that was explained clearly, that those levels are consistent with "Post Mortem Re-Distribution"..and NOT as something ingested..DT is blowing alot of smoke.."But I Can See Clearly Now" humm isnt that a song title?

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by TxLady2 View Post
    It's used for procedures where you have to be put to sleep for a few minutes. I always had a breathing tube when they gave it, plus a ton of monitoring equipment attached.
    I think it is given in tiny increments, just enough to put you out and keep you out until the procedure is done. It is not given all at once.
    I agree with everything else you said.
    Yes, exactly. Here in NC, propofol is the anesthesia of choice to give to patients undergoing colonoscopies. I recently had one, and the nurse-anesthetist was there when she conked me out & there when she brought be back.

    Very, very quick conk-out, no pain "felt" or remembered, quick back in, and it seems like you're been unconscious only for literally the blink of an eye. The procedure was done in essentially an OR -- crash cart, oxygen, doctor, nurse, and gas-passer within an arm's length of me. No grogginess or "hangover" or headache -- at least I had none. Wonderful stuff, and apparently very safe if done by someone who KNOWS WHAT HE OR SHE IS DOING.


    All posts, unless attributed, are "just my humble opinion," and they are to remain here in Websleuths and are not to be used elsewhere. Thank you.
    _________________


    This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.
    William Shakespeare, King Richard II



    The Angel of the Waters, Bethesda Terrace, Central Park, New York City

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by borndem View Post
    Yes, exactly. Here in NC, propofol is the anesthesia of choice to give to patients undergoing colonoscopies. I recently had one, and the nurse-anesthetist was there when she conked me out & there when she brought be back.

    Very, very quick conk-out, no pain "felt" or remembered, quick back in, and it seems like you're been unconscious only for literally the blink of an eye. The procedure was done in essentially an OR -- crash cart, oxygen, doctor, nurse, and gas-passer within an arm's length of me. No grogginess or "hangover" or headache -- at least I had none. Wonderful stuff, and apparently very safe if done by someone who KNOWS WHAT HE OR SHE IS DOING.
    Right you are borndem. With so many procedures and surgeries being done on an "out patient" basis, propoful is the ideal sleep. The patient awakes and is "up and out" of the place in no time.

    My daughter had it when she had her gall bladder removed. She was in and out all in one day. As things go now, I'm surprised they didn't perform her surgery out in the parking lot in the back of her van. I guess that's next when it comes to these "out patient" surgeries.
    jmo
    The Hokey Pokey Clinic - A good place to turn yourself around:


  11. #191
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    In US criminal cases, the defendant can request a Bench Trial

    Quote Originally Posted by borndem View Post
    That's what this defense team is trying to do: They are trying to O.D. the jury on all this confusing, complicated, hard-to-understand, too-much-math, too many milligrams (what's a dayam milligram, anyway?) and micrograms and nanograms, diazepam, lorazepam, medazipam, and I-don't-give-a-dayam, and diprivan, ativan and minivan (or whatever it is), and propofol, folderol, and flomax, and lorax, remax, and versed, and spikes, and oximeters, speedometers, and thermometers, and I'm so confused, I'm just gonna ignore this part.

    ======> That's what they're after -- just hoping the jury will just feel so unqualified and uneducated about all this pharmacology and toxicology and blabology that they will just skip that part in their deliberations. MJ's doctor sounded so nice, he must be okay. Not guilty.
    A bench trial is a trial held before a judge sitting without a jury.

    Some defendants waive their right to a jury trial and choose a bench trial if they think the jury members lack the necessary knowledge and skills to render them a fair verdict.

    In U.S. law, most civil trials are bench trials unless a party requests a jury. A criminal bench trial will only occur if the right to a jury trial is waived. In the case of a criminal trial, in most states the criminal defendant alone has the ability to waive the right to a jury.

    In United States Federal criminal trials, jury trials are usually a matter of course and cannot be waived without certain requirements. Under the rules of Federal Criminal Procedure: If a defendant is entitled to a jury trial, the trial must be by jury unless: (1) the defendant waives a jury trial in writing; (2) the government consents; and (3) the court approves.

    See Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure 23(a).

    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bench_trial"]Bench trial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
    Last edited by Crosby87; 10-12-2011 at 03:14 PM. Reason: add information

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