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  1. #151
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    I have a feeling this nurse practitioner isn't happy testifying for the defense. As with Dr. Metzger, she apparently liked MJ very much.

    I can't say I was ever a great fan (wrong generation), but I did admire his work. As for his private life, it's impossible to separate myth from reality, so I don't judge.

    As for insomnia, I know what that is! From childhood I was a natural-born night owl. My mind works best then. Unfortunately, my profession dictated that I be a morning glory. I seldom had more than 4 hours of sleep a night. Now that I'm retired, I fight a constant battle with trying to be a morning glory. My sleep patterns are a total mess.

    I have to wonder if MJ was a night owl and had a difficult time with daily practices. He needed to sleep when his mind was most active. Add in the pressure of having the concert series resting entirely on him and the adrenaline after a good day, I imagine nothing would bring him down enough to sleep.

    Over the years, I've been prescribed safe dosages of a variety of medications to help me get to sleep. Nothing worked. I also have to say that I had to retire early, at 51, due to the fact that I could no longer function at my job the way I wanted to. I just couldn't keep going with the lack of sleep. I also tried meditation, teas, etc. None of them helped me either.

    Based on the latest testimony, it seems to me that MJ was trying to avoid drugs which didn't help him in favor of natural medicine with the nurse practitioner. Proof of the pudding, IMHO, was the fact that he gave her a chance to get him to sleep and it failed him and the fact that he didn't give himself drugs without Dr. Murray to administer them to him.
    The greatest trespasser on justice still wishes it done to him.

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  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by peace9274 View Post
    Nurse Lee said, and it's been shown on the various news programs several times,
    that MJ asked her if she would get and administer propofol for him.

    She said she told MJ that she would NOT do that and told him that if he took it,
    he may NEVER wake up again.
    I remember seeing Nurse Lee on TV on a talk show and she was talking about the propofol. I remember when I watched her she was so nervous that I wondered why. After a few shows she wasn't nervous anymore. She also said that MJ really, really wanted her to give him propofol. I remember that she was asked if he had ever had propofol before and she answered that he knew about it from somewhere.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by azwriter View Post
    katydid, i really appreciate your thoughts in this post. I think it must have been difficult for you to express that you give a share of blame to Michael. But, I too have those same feelings.

    As I wrote in another post, if Michael was totally convinced this was the one and only drug that would allow him to sleep, why wasn't he checking into a hospital every night where he could be in the presence of a full medical staff and emergency equipment for his safety and have this drug administered.

    I think he didn't because he knew this would be forbidden by medical professionals and hospital officials.

    This practice sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

    I've never had sleep problems so I cannot understand how it feels not to sleep. But, I know there are treatment centers for sleep problems and doctors who specialize in that disorder. Why couldn't Michael had gone that route instead of being treated by a doctor, who didn't specialize in sleep disorders anyway, hidden away in his own bedroom. Am I the only one who questions this behavior and finds it odd on Michael's part? Once this was revealed didn't others say "What the heck?"

    I too am sad he is gone. This should not have happened. But, I don't see Michael Jackson as being a non participant. He wanted this treatment, which is a shame for all those he left behind.

    just my O
    BBM

    Michael couldn't go into a hospital and receive this drug every night but through decades of insomnia he did find out somehow this worked for him. I would imagine he found that out about propofol when he either had to have a procedural sedation or a surgery of some type. Michael didn't even have privacy when he went out and in the gates to his home much less go to a hospital every night. The paparazzi would have had a field day and no telling what myth they would come up with.

    As far has administering it in the home..neither MJ nor Murray broke any laws by doing it there. Propopol is not a controlled substance. No where does the FDA say it cannot be used in a home setting. Maybe that will be added now to the label.

    It is ironic in a way now since MJs death there has been a study done using volunteer patients who suffer from severe insomnia. They were treated by using propofol and with great results. All 64 patients in the study were helped when given propofol. I imagine these studies will continue.

    It really isn't the use of the propofol in the home setting that killed MJ on June 25th.

    Why it happened and why Murray decided on that day to put his social life as first priority over continuously monitoring his patient will probably never be quite understood by most, imo.

    Murray had enough there to maintain MJs life if he had only been there watching when he stopped breathing. We have no idea if the oxygen tank had oxygen in it when he began and Murray could have used it up trying to get oxygen back into MJ but by that time MJ was long dead and the attempt would be futile.

    Every anesthesiologists expert that has testified said as long as oxygen was getting in to the lungs the patient will not go into respiratory failure. And he also had the ambu-bag right there at his disposal. Another way to flood his lungs with oxygen.

    But those things can only work if the doctor sees the patient stop breathing and rushes to push oxygen into the lungs. That is why MJ died because his doctor was no where around when he went into distress.

    IMO
    Last edited by oceanblueeyes; 10-25-2011 at 08:55 AM.
    "Pardon Our Noise, It's the Sound of Freedom" USMC New River Air Station, Jacksonville, North Carolina

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPfan View Post
    I remember seeing Nurse Lee on TV on a talk show and she was talking about the propofol. I remember when I watched her she was so nervous that I wondered why. After a few shows she wasn't nervous anymore. She also said that MJ really, really wanted her to give him propofol. I remember that she was asked if he had ever had propofol before and she answered that he knew about it from somewhere.
    I would think when someone first goes on national tv shows they are nervous. Its a totally different atmosphere from what NL has known I imagine although I never felt she looked nervous.

    I really like Nurse Lee. She is a medical professional that takes her patient's needs very seriously. I bet she has a lot of patients that just adore her. Her demeanor is very loving, caring and kind, imo.

    I don't remember her asking him about him taking propofol before but I do remember she said MJ told her he would be just fine because he would have a doctor monitoring him.

    I think she is going to be a great witness for the state once they are able to cross examine her.

    IMO
    "Pardon Our Noise, It's the Sound of Freedom" USMC New River Air Station, Jacksonville, North Carolina

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaMoon View Post
    I have a feeling this nurse practitioner isn't happy testifying for the defense. As with Dr. Metzger, she apparently liked MJ very much.

    I can't say I was ever a great fan (wrong generation), but I did admire his work. As for his private life, it's impossible to separate myth from reality, so I don't judge.

    As for insomnia, I know what that is! From childhood I was a natural-born night owl. My mind works best then. Unfortunately, my profession dictated that I be a morning glory. I seldom had more than 4 hours of sleep a night. Now that I'm retired, I fight a constant battle with trying to be a morning glory. My sleep patterns are a total mess.

    I have to wonder if MJ was a night owl and had a difficult time with daily practices. He needed to sleep when his mind was most active. Add in the pressure of having the concert series resting entirely on him and the adrenaline after a good day, I imagine nothing would bring him down enough to sleep.

    Over the years, I've been prescribed safe dosages of a variety of medications to help me get to sleep. Nothing worked. I also have to say that I had to retire early, at 51, due to the fact that I could no longer function at my job the way I wanted to. I just couldn't keep going with the lack of sleep. I also tried meditation, teas, etc. None of them helped me either.

    Based on the latest testimony, it seems to me that MJ was trying to avoid drugs which didn't help him in favor of natural medicine with the nurse practitioner. Proof of the pudding, IMHO, was the fact that he gave her a chance to get him to sleep and it failed him and the fact that he didn't give himself drugs without Dr. Murray to administer them to him.
    I think you are right. Nurse Lee said that Michael was the most humble man she has ever known and he and his children were so loving. The kids even bought her a birthday present. lol Once again it seems Michael and his children touched the hearts of many.

    She also said she never saw any signs of drug use and she came at different times from early morning to later at night.

    Strange NL said she never had one problem with MJs veins. She said he had tiny veins and she knew what to do for people who do (which I am one of those people) who sure could have used someone like NL at times when I have had to have an IV or blood tests.

    MJ did seem to be willing to try anything new to help his insomnia problem.

    I can see why he told her he simply didn't have the time to do the sleep study since the tour preparation was so time consuming. Not a good time when having so much to deal with.

    I know I must get at least 8 hours of sleep to even be able to function properly. My heart goes out to those that struggle with lack of sleep and I know many like MJ and they have done everything in the world trying it make it better including sleep study and nothing works. Some I know remain awake for 2-3 days at a time. I cannot begin to fathom how tired that would make them feel.

    So I have the utmost compassion with anyone who struggles with insomnia.

    IMO
    "Pardon Our Noise, It's the Sound of Freedom" USMC New River Air Station, Jacksonville, North Carolina

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by borndem View Post
    But apparently the good doctor hasn't gotten paid for all his longs nights just yet. A pity, that. Now to whom will CM send the bill? Ain't nobody happy here, I guess.
    The fact Conrad Murray wasn’t paid for nearly 3 months is an important issue in this case imo. Alot of disgruntled employees kill their employers.

    Conrad Murray wasn’t expecting to increase his financial woes when he was hired personally by “The King of Pop” in April 2009 and not receiving a regular paycheck could have caused CM to become hostile towards MJ.

    When a person can't resolve problems appropriately and they're feeling frustrated, they often have violent outbursts and attack others.

    Dr. Murray had a lot of people depending on him for money and it's possible people began calling him when his income was withheld from him.

    CM may have decided to rectify his problem by withholding proper medical care to MJ until he received a paycheck.

    MJ was a difficult patient to take care of everyday because he worried constantly and his unrealistic demands put others at risk.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by peace9274 View Post
    Klonopin (clonazepam) is one of the benzodiazepines, like ativan, valium, xanax, etc.
    We used it a lot on the psych units for calming, sedating effects. I don't think I ever
    gave it to a patient with a seizure disorder, however I am aware that it is used for that.

    I'd imagine that it was used to help MJ relax... especially before going to sleep.
    Klonopin (clonazepam) affects chemicals in the brain that may become unbalanced and cause anxiety.

    Klonopin is used to treat seizure disorders or panic disorder.

    Various drugs can cause seizures if too much is taken. Most commonly, seizure disorders begin in early childhood or in late adulthood.

    Conditions that irritate the brain—such as injuries, certain drugs, sleep deprivation, infections, fever—or that deprive the brain of oxygen or fuel—such as abnormal heart rhythms, a low level of oxygen in the blood, or a very low level of sugar in the blood—can trigger a single seizure whether a person has a seizure disorder or not.

    Seizures may result when the brain's electrical activity is disrupted.

    Doctors suspect the diagnosis based on symptoms, but imaging of the brain, blood tests, and electroencephalography (to record the brain's electrical activity) are usually needed to identify the cause.

    http://www.drugs.com/klonopin.html

    http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/bra...disorders.html

  8. #158
    Regarding the use of propofol to sleep: I recall seeing a piece on 20/20 or one of those shows, where an anesthesiologist who now lives in Vermont or somewhere back there was interviewed. He claims to have given it to MJ while MJ was on tour in Europe. So, he may have been the one who introduced MJ to the drug. IIRC the guy had his own license yanked for other reasons (surprise!).

    As far as I am concerned, while MJ's participation in all of this may make him a less sympathetic victim, he is still a victim and Murray is responsible for his death. MJ could have just gotten his hands on the propofol and the IV drip equipment and self administered this stuff, but he didn't. He hired Murray to administer it and monitor him. Of course, a jury may not see it this way, but that's the way I view the evidence.

    BTW, I heard one of the TV talking heads yesterday (on the satellite radio, so I don't know who it was) refer to Chernoff as "Turn Off Chernoff". LOL.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes View Post
    BBM

    Michael couldn't go into a hospital and receive this drug every night but through decades of insomnia he did find out somehow this worked for him. I would imagine he found that out about propofol when he either had to have a procedural sedation or a surgery of some type. Michael didn't even have privacy when he went out and in the gates to his home much less go to a hospital every night. The paparazzi would have had a field day and no telling what myth they would come up with.

    As far has administering it in the home..neither MJ nor Murray broke any laws by doing it there. Propopol is not a controlled substance. No where does the FDA say it cannot be used in a home setting. Maybe that will be added now to the label.

    It is ironic in a way now since MJs death there has been a study done using volunteer patients who suffer from severe insomnia. They were treated by using propofol and with great results. All 64 patients in the study were helped when given propofol. I imagine these studies will continue.

    It really isn't the use of the propofol in the home setting that killed MJ on June 25th.

    Why it happened and why Murray decided on that day to put his social life as first priority over continuously monitoring his patient will probably never be quite understood by most, imo.

    Murray had enough there to maintain MJs life if he had only been there watching when he stopped breathing. We have no idea if the oxygen tank had oxygen in it when he began and Murray could have used it up trying to get oxygen back into MJ but by that time MJ was long dead and the attempt would be futile.

    Every anesthesiologists expert that has testified said as long as oxygen was getting in to the lungs the patient will not go into respiratory failure. And he also had the ambu-bag right there at his disposal. Another way to flood his lungs with oxygen.

    But those things can only work if the doctor sees the patient stop breathing and rushes to push oxygen into the lungs. That is why MJ died because his doctor was no where around when he went into distress.

    IMO
    I agree with you. It's not the use of propofol, it's the manner in which it was given without the necessary emergency equipment, and not monitoring him properly. And the fact that Conrad Murray was not trained to administer anesthesia.

    I believe that it was never designed to be used as a treatment for insomnia, it was intended for use in a hospital setting ONLY... thus not being labeled a controlled drug. It is anesthesia, which is different than an ordinary sedative.

    I hope the FDA is paying attention and will work to change the laws before some other celebrity falls victim to it. Celebrities seem to think the rules and laws don't apply to them.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky#1 View Post
    The fact Conrad Murray wasn’t paid for nearly 3 months is an important issue in this case imo. Alot of disgruntled employees kill their employers.

    Conrad Murray wasn’t expecting to increase his financial woes when he was hired personally by “The King of Pop” in April 2009 and not receiving a regular paycheck could have caused CM to become hostile towards MJ.

    When a person can't resolve problems appropriately and they're feeling frustrated, they often have violent outbursts and attack others.

    Dr. Murray had a lot of people depending on him for money and it's possible people began calling him when his income was withheld from him.

    CM may have decided to rectify his problem by withholding proper medical care to MJ until he received a paycheck.

    MJ was a difficult patient to take care of everyday because he worried constantly and his unrealistic demands put others at risk.
    Are you saying CM killed MJ on purpose?

    CM was negotiating with AEG......not MJ. That is when he told them he wanted 5 million dollars for his services.

    It dragged on........he was wanting all of this medical equipment but would not tell AEG why he wanted them.

    He made several amendments to the contract. 1. He did not want the checks made payable to him personally. He wanted them to be put into a 'business' account instead.

    Once they refused to pay him the amount he wanted then they told him he would have to get with MJ on the amount and that is when the 5 million changed to 1 million more or less over the life of the contract.

    He was still sending emails to AEG on the morning MJ died and MJ had never signed his name agreeing to pay him this amount. So now since he has killed MJ, AEG is refusing to pay him. Imo, that would be like rewarding bad behavior.

    What I find ironic is the AEG staff contacted Murray about their suspicious about MJ that he may be taking something. Little did they know they were talking directly to the wolf guarding the hen house the entire time.

    IMO
    "Pardon Our Noise, It's the Sound of Freedom" USMC New River Air Station, Jacksonville, North Carolina


  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes View Post
    I would think when someone first goes on national tv shows they are nervous. Its a totally different atmosphere from what NL has known I imagine although I never felt she looked nervous.

    I really like Nurse Lee. She is a medical professional that takes her patient's needs very seriously. I bet she has a lot of patients that just adore her. Her demeanor is very loving, caring and kind, imo.

    I don't remember her asking him about him taking propofol before but I do remember she said MJ told her he would be just fine because he would have a doctor monitoring him.

    I think she is going to be a great witness for the state once they are able to cross examine her.

    IMO
    Personally, I have no idea why Chernoff called Dr. Metzger or Nurse Lee. Neither of them gave MJ propofol and kept records. Whatever his reason was seems to have only put Dr. Murray in a worse light. Sheesh, even Nurse Lee just giving MJ nutrional IV therapy she said she sat there and watched him every second although in her case it was not even necessary; it was not drugs.


    Defense of Dr. Conrad Murray stumbles at the start

    Lawyers defending Michael Jackson’s personal physician sought Monday to poke holes in the prosecution’s case in the month-long manslaughter trial of Dr. Conrad Murray.

    But the effort seemed to falter badly when a former physician for Mr. Jackson – called as a defense witness – testified that he would never, for any price, administer an intravenous sedative like propofol at a patient’s home as sleep medicine.

    “Did you ever give Michael Jackson propofol,” Deputy District Attorney David Walgren asked Dr. Allan Metzger.

    “Never,” Dr. Metger answered.

    Was there any amount of money that would convince Dr. Metzger to administer propofol to Jackson in his house, Mr. Walgren asked.

    "No,” the doctor said emphatically.

    Rather than helping the defense, Metzger’s testimony appeared to significantly bolster the involuntary manslaughter case against Murray.

    Read more: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice...s-at-the-start

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    I agree. And that does NOT mean that Murray shouldn't be found guilty and lose his medical license and do some time. he is responsible for his major part in this. But he did not trick Michael into using this deadly drug. He may have tricked Michael into believing he had his back and was going to monitor him. I am sure michael did not think that his good buddy Dr Murray was going to be talking to his girlfriends instead of listening to see if Michael was still breathing properly.

    If Murray was not so greedy he would have had the proper equipment available to him in case of a medical emergency.
    I'm on the same page, yes Murray should be found guilty. I only wish he would be serving more than four years. If he gets that at all.

    just my O
    The Hokey Pokey Clinic - A good place to turn yourself around:

  13. #163
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    What an interesting read from all you people. I enjoyed reading the different opinions, very much enjoyed indeed. Thank you!

    As I read through I kept saying to myself, I see that, I think that too, and every once in a while I read one that had not even occurred to me.

    In my opinion every witness that defense has called so far has just helped prosecution point out what shoddy records Murray kept. I can't believe this is by design, why would defense want to keep pointing this out over and over? I just keep shaking my head in disbelief. I just can't see where defense is going that would be worth pointing out over and over the deficiencies of Murray's standard of care. I could see giving some up to get more, but they are giving up a lot and getting nothing back from these witnesses that might help their client. I find this strange.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes View Post
    BBMBut those things can only work if the doctor sees the patient stop breathing and rushes to push oxygen into the lungs. That is why MJ died because his doctor was no where around when he went into distress.

    IMO
    Because Anding said she heard a cough during her phone call with CM and assuming it was MJ,
    Anding testified that CM immediately put his cell phone in a pocket to free his hands which proves CM was close enough to hear Michael's call for help.

    What did CM do after he heard Michael cough at 11:58 am on June 25 2009?
    Last edited by Crosby87; 10-26-2011 at 10:07 AM.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky#1 View Post
    Because Anding said she heard a cough during her phone call with CM and assuming it was MJ,
    Anding testified that CM immediately put his cell phone in a pocket to free his hands which proves CM was close enough to hear Michael's call for help.

    What did CM do after he heard Michael cough at 11:58 am on June 25 2009?
    Actually she hung up then, right, but she had stayed on the phone for 4-5 minutes thinking he would come back to the phone. So it was earlier than 11:58 am iirc.

    She retracted that statement when questioned by EC. She admitted she really didnt know what the sounds were.

    I imagine it was Murray talking to MJ or he was mumbling to himself but MJ was long dead and never said a thing once CM finally noticed he wasnt breathing, imo.
    "Pardon Our Noise, It's the Sound of Freedom" USMC New River Air Station, Jacksonville, North Carolina

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