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Thread: IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #26

  1. #726
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    Quote Originally Posted by imkeylime View Post
    I suppose the most logical motive would be to protect themselves or someone they're both close to. It might be to suggest that being "shoeless" and "intoxicated" rests on LS alone. I agree we can't determine the context, but we know that DR was with LS at the beginning of the night, and that she supposedly tried to contact him at the end of it (doubtful, I know). He's kind of like a set of bookends or parentheses, in that respect, which is what makes his words the most interesting to me.
    Well said and very effective metaphors, Keylime. I agree about the possibility that they're protecting someone/themselves.

    Reading your post made me remember questions people have had about why Lauren didn't go to her apartment when she and CR returned to Smallwood. You may have asked this. And it's been either rumored or questioned whether she might have tried to get into the apartment but was prevented from doing so.

    (I'm just sort of looking at this anew, and yes, I realize it's based on just a shred of new info.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jupiter812 View Post
    Well said and very effective metaphors, Keylime. I agree about the possibility that they're protecting someone/themselves.

    Reading your post made me remember questions people have had about why Lauren didn't go to her apartment when she and CR returned to Smallwood. You may have asked this. And it's been either rumored or questioned whether she might have tried to get into the apartment but was prevented from doing so.

    (I'm just sort of looking at this anew, and yes, I realize it's based on just a shred of new info.)
    I get the impression that HT wasn't crazy about CR, so I don't see her protecting him. IDK about DR/CR. I'd see them protecting themselves, JR, or even a group over CR ... though I could see MB and JR protecting CR. There could be more than one level of "protection" going on, i.e., JR protecting CR while DR and HT protect JR. IDK. I wonder if DR still has contact with the 5 North guys?

    I'm starting to forget what I've asked re: SW, sadly . At this point, I wonder why they went back to SW in the first place ... $$$, shoes, to meet somebody? The fact that CR wasn't welcome in more ways than one may have influenced her not entering the apartment ... though I also don't get why she followed him out (so wish she hadn't).

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    Longtime reader, first time poster...but with respect to this conversation on DR, do we know why he is not considered a top POI?

    While there are reasons to be suspicious of others' stories, if we believe them for a moment, doesn't DR deserve a look?

    If it's true he was one in the altercation with CR at Smallwood, it shows he has a predisposition to violence.
    If LS left with CR immediately after, it could be that she sided with CR after that altercation and felt the need to defend him.
    If LS did call DR at 415 as claimed, is it possible she was calling not for a ride, but to confront DR for assaulting CR?
    Lastly, if it's true LS walked east and turned the corner rather than going back down the alley, is it possible she was going to DR's (right direction) to confront him face to face? If she did, we already know DR has a bit of a violent tendency.

    Certainly other POI stories are quite shady, but not sure if this also doesn't warrant conversation.

    Thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by poppyseed View Post
    If it's true [DR] was one in the altercation with CR at Smallwood...[snipped]
    Hi Poppyseed, welcome!

    DR went out with Lauren that night, but was not involved in the altercation. The person who punched CR is (allegedly) ZO.

    My guess is that given the security at Smallwood, it's clear when DR came home that night, which is why he was never under very much suspicion.

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    Thanks, Abby. My mistake and confusing myself on initials at an early time. You're right, it was DR that was supposedly called, but ZO in the altercation and ZO's apartment that would have been on the way if she truly left the way JR says. So, change that earlier thought... What if LS was going to confront ZO for the altercation with CR? What if she tried calling DR for help to confront ZO, but when she couldn't reach him, decided to go alone to ZO? And, then of course as you corrected me (it's not DR, my apologies), it's ZO that may have a temper...

    So, correcting that scenario, thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by poppyseed View Post
    Longtime reader, first time poster...but with respect to this conversation on DR, do we know why he is not considered a top POI?

    While there are reasons to be suspicious of others' stories, if we believe them for a moment, doesn't DR deserve a look?

    If it's true he was one in the altercation with CR at Smallwood, it shows he has a predisposition to violence.
    If LS left with CR immediately after, it could be that she sided with CR after that altercation and felt the need to defend him.
    If LS did call DR at 415 as claimed, is it possible she was calling not for a ride, but to confront DR for assaulting CR?
    Lastly, if it's true LS walked east and turned the corner rather than going back down the alley, is it possible she was going to DR's (right direction) to confront him face to face? If she did, we already know DR has a bit of a violent tendency.

    Certainly other POI stories are quite shady, but not sure if this also doesn't warrant conversation.

    Thoughts?
    Welcome Poppyseed. I see in later posts you have clarified some of the details above. But you raise an excellent point. I could agree with the poster who suggests that there are likely records from Smallwood that put DR in his room when he says he was there. But that does not mean that he didn't go out some other unconventional way at say 2:35 and come back in the same way at 4:10 or throw his car keys out the window. LE/PI should scrutinize his actions and his phone. I am not trying to make a case to accuse DR, just to say that his willingness to look for LS does not place him above the highest scrutiny.

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    Lauren Spierer: 'She's not a poster. She's a person.'
    11:08 PM - MAR. 1, 2012

    http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=85908

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    Quote Originally Posted by poppyseed View Post
    Thanks, Abby. My mistake and confusing myself on initials at an early time. You're right, it was DR that was supposedly called, but ZO in the altercation and ZO's apartment that would have been on the way if she truly left the way JR says. So, change that earlier thought... What if LS was going to confront ZO for the altercation with CR? What if she tried calling DR for help to confront ZO, but when she couldn't reach him, decided to go alone to ZO? And, then of course as you corrected me (it's not DR, my apologies), it's ZO that may have a temper...

    So, correcting that scenario, thoughts?
    I think someone recently posted that ZO's apartments has cameras, that presumably would have caught LS arriving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ros View Post
    I think someone recently posted that ZO's apartments have cameras, that presumably would have caught LS arriving.
    I couldn't find the "edit" button to correct my typo.

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    Thank you for the link, Btown.

    "She is out of the headlines, but not the hearts of those who love her."


    “She was a teeny little thing,” Charlene said. “But she was tough as nails.”


    http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=85908
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubtingthomas View Post
    Thanks Jupiter. I went back and listened to it also. This time I heard "shoeless and intoxicated".
    Which suggests DR was repeating what he heard and not what he witnessed firsthand because by all reports, Lauren didn't remove her shoes until she arrived at the bar. Of course, we don't know for certain because the reporter was more interested in capturing a tantalizing sound bite than reporting the facts.

    The question of when Lauren became so intoxicated, if we're to believe the rumors, is an excellent one, imo. Does anyone recall who it was that said the group at JR's wasn't drinking? I know this has been discussed before, but it still bugs me. With all the talk of Lauren being intoxicated, severely so according to some, when and how did she come to be in that condition? She showed no signs of being inebriated walking out of SW, and if she didn't drink at JR's, that leaves Sports. But how long was she there? All of forty-five minutes? Another rumor implies she was taking Xanax. Well, that is a quick acting medication, and alcohol can intensify the effects, but still I'm bothered by the allegation. Now you've reminded us about DR's on camera statement, and as Jupiter pointed out, it does pose interesting questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jupiter812 View Post
    I'm not doing a very good job of getting my point across. Not the first time, lol. It's not the content of what DR said, nor is it a question of whether it's original or hearsay, it's the fact that he said it publicly. Who else among Lauren's friends outed her publicly? HT. Anyone else? I am reminded of the rumor that DR and HT were together that night.

    Maybe they're just too young to know how to communicate sensitive info; maybe they have a shared motive for casting Lauren in a negative light. What might that motive be?
    Sorry, Jupiter. I overlooked the post where you questioned whether DR was attempting to absolve himself. It's possible that he was caught off guard by the questions and is young enough to be a little naive about the press. I doubt he considered his first audible words would be "shoeless and intoxicated". So, I lean toward giving him the benefit of the doubt.

    On the other hand, I think DR has won himself a pass. Generally speaking, it's been assumed that after he left JR's he was home all night. As others have posted, the cameras at SW would/should have recorded his comings and goings. CR and JR are known bad boys and were with LS in the hours before she disappeared. The altercation at SW, the mysterious walk through the alley, and the fact that Lauren was last known to be at JR's apartment, have fed suspicions about those two. Based on what little we know, they are the logical and most likely suspects. Beside a random abduction (which I still believe is a viable possibility), until now, I don't think I've ever seriously considered a scenario where JR and/or CR are not part of the equation.

    I like imkeylime's bookend analogy, too. The phone call is significant for a few reasons. If LS was calling DR to open the door because she'd lost her keys, that would at least tell us she intended to go home and pretty much clears DR. If not that, what was the purpose of the call? There has been speculation that DR and HT were protecting JR. But maybe it wasn't JR at all, and we haven't asked enough questions regarding what happened before Lauren left SW. What did Lauren and DR talk about that evening? Lauren and HT? Who else spent time with Lauren that day? We've never gotten a confirmed (by LE) accounting of Lauren's whereabouts and activities during the eight hours or so prior to leaving for JR's, have we? And IF DR and HT are protecting anyone, who would that be? Is there a third party we're unaware of? Or no third party, but just themselves? So many questions, and we can only hope that LE knows the answers.
    Last edited by bessie; 03-03-2012 at 10:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bessie View Post
    Which suggests DR was repeating what he heard and not what he witnessed firsthand because by all reports, Lauren didn't remove her shoes until she arrived at the bar. Of course, we don't know for certain because the reporter was more interested in capturing a tantalizing sound bite than reporting the facts.

    The question of when Lauren became so intoxicated, if we're to believe the rumors, is an excellent one, imo. Does anyone recall who it was that said the group at JR's wasn't drinking? I know this has been discussed before, but it still bugs me. With all the talk of Lauren being intoxicated, severely so according to some, when and how did she come to be in that condition? She showed no signs of being inebriated walking out of SW, and if she didn't drink at JR's, that leaves Sports. But how long was she there? All of forty-five minutes? Another rumor implies she was taking Xanax. Well, that is a quick acting medication, and alcohol can intensify the effects, but still I'm bothered by the allegation. Now you've reminded us about DR's on camera statement, and as Jupiter pointed out, it does pose interesting questions.


    Sorry, Jupiter. I overlooked the post where you questioned whether DR was attempting to absolve himself. It's possible that he was caught off guard by the questions and is young enough to be a little naive about the press. I doubt he considered his first audible words would be "shoeless and intoxicated". So, I lean toward giving him the benefit of the doubt.

    On the other hand, I think DR has won himself a pass. Generally speaking, it's been assumed that after he left JR's he was home all night. As others have posted, the cameras at SW would/should have recorded his comings and goings. CR and JR are known bad boys and were with LS in the hours before she disappeared. The altercation at SW, the mysterious walk through the alley, and the fact that Lauren was last known to be at JR's apartment, have fed suspicions about those two. Based on what little we know, they are the logical and most likely suspects. Beside a random abduction (which I still believe is a viable possibility), until now, I don't think I've ever seriously considered a scenario where JR and/or CR are not part of the equation.

    I like imkeylime's bookend analogy, too. The phone call is significant for a few reasons. If LS was calling DR to open the door because she'd lost her keys, that would at least tell us she intended to go home and pretty much clears DR. If not that, what was the purpose of the call? There has been speculation that DR and HT were protecting JR. But maybe it wasn't JR at all, and we haven't asked enough questions regarding what happened before Lauren left SW. What did Lauren and DR talk about that evening? Lauren and HT? Who else spent time with Lauren that day? We've never gotten a confirmed (by LE) accounting of Lauren's whereabouts and activities during the eight hours or so prior to leaving for JR's, have we? And IF DR and HT are protecting anyone, who would that be? Is there a third party we're unaware of? Or no third party, but just themselves? So many questions, and we can only hope that LE knows the answers.
    What I recall hearing about the group gathering at JR's is there was no alcohol. I translate this to mean at certain point in the evening they ran out. This could be a reason to go Sports.

    The third party could be JW. They would protect him. Edited to add: JW is not really a third party so I would say: drug dealer. They would protect a DD.

    It's possible there are several guilty parties in the group--guilty of different offenses (some moral, others criminal) and of varying degrees (providing alcohol, providing drugs, disappearing body).

    I'll never forget viewing Lauren's Story--the video that was shown at the Shine concert. I gasped when the photo of DR appeared, not only because it caught me off guard, but it was a poignant reminder that he played a significant role that night.

    Wierd maybe, but the more time that passes:

    * The more I believe something happened at the gravel lot, but not necessarily that she disappeared from there; and,

    * The less likely I believe it was abduction. Too much drama went down that night to have her snatched up off the street.
    Last edited by Jupiter812; 03-03-2012 at 04:39 PM.

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    I just thought of something: Lauren was on probation and had not been out to the bars in a long time. I don't know if she was on a sobriety program, but drinking at JR's could have been a big slip. It could have emboldened her to risk going to Sports. She may very well have been intoxicated enough at JR's earlier to put herself at risk with probation orders.

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    Another letter from Charlene S. to the unknown perp

    Charlene Spierer wrote another letter to the unknown person who knows what happened to Lauren. See link below.

    http://newsonlaurens.blogspot.com/20...-charlene.html

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    The problem I have with the letter is if it's a random abduction then it probably accomplishes nothing anyway but if it's some horrible accident that has spiraled out of control then the letter isn't offering a lifeline. It's basically saying they want to drop the hammer on the person(s).

    If someone knows or suspects a friend's involvement this type of letter is more likely IMHO to keep them silent, not tug on their heartstrings enough to get them to speak up. If someone is directly involved and this is weighing on them then without some lifeline being offered I don't see how this will bring anyone forward either. If anything it would strengthen their resolve to just get on with their life or else face the full force of the legal system with a high profile case and parents wanting revenge.

    I think the letter would stand more of a chance of reaching someone and getting them to act if it said "We just want our daughter back. If this was some type of horrible accident that spiraled out of control, then talk to us....". Then offer a lifeline of some sort rather than a hammer.

    If they could make the goal seem more one of closure than seemingly wanting to find someone to blame and punish then maybe someone would speak up. If they could do this in concert with LE then so much the better. Of course this type of leniency would be for an accident type scenario that went places it never should've went not for any type of murder/coverup scenario. But then if that is what happened no matter what tact the letter takes it isn't likely to bring anyone forward.

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    Didn't Lauren's mom try the nicer route months ago in another posting? i.e just tell us where she is...I think she is probably trying everything she can think of, JMO...and the guilty party(ies) are probably reading every word, unless this really was the truly random and extremely rare stranger.
    Just my opinion, of course.

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  31. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by akh View Post
    The problem I have with the letter is if it's a random abduction then it probably accomplishes nothing anyway but if it's some horrible accident that has spiraled out of control then the letter isn't offering a lifeline. It's basically saying they want to drop the hammer on the person(s).

    If someone knows or suspects a friend's involvement this type of letter is more likely IMHO to keep them silent, not tug on their heartstrings enough to get them to speak up. If someone is directly involved and this is weighing on them then without some lifeline being offered I don't see how this will bring anyone forward either. If anything it would strengthen their resolve to just get on with their life or else face the full force of the legal system with a high profile case and parents wanting revenge.

    I think the letter would stand more of a chance of reaching someone and getting them to act if it said "We just want our daughter back. If this was some type of horrible accident that spiraled out of control, then talk to us....". Then offer a lifeline of some sort rather than a hammer.

    If they could make the goal seem more one of closure than seemingly wanting to find someone to blame and punish then maybe someone would speak up. If they could do this in concert with LE then so much the better. Of course this type of leniency would be for an accident type scenario that went places it never should've went not for any type of murder/coverup scenario. But then if that is what happened no matter what tact the letter takes it isn't likely to bring anyone forward.
    bbm

    Charlene Spierer did offer a lifeline early on in the form of an anonymous post office box, to no avail. In her numerous pleas, Charlene Spierer has always spoken very directly to the individual who holds the answers. She hasn't soft soaped the situation, but neither has she spoken of punishment or retribution. Her goal has always been crystal clear: to bring Lauren home.

    Through this entire ordeal, the Spierers have shown incredible patience, imo. Now Lauren's been missing nine months, and her disappearance is on the verge of becoming a cold case. I think her parents have reached the point in the road where they are forced to accept that the responsible party is not going to come forward no matter what they say.

    October 20, 2011
    You have the ability to end this nightmare. With every beat of my heart and every fiber of my body, I wish for Lauren’s return. You alone, have the knowledge which can return Lauren to us. While it took cowardice to take Lauren off the streets of Bloomington, I offer a coward’s alternative to providing the truth. An anonymous post office box. The price of a stamp stands between you and me. I am waiting to hear from you. Maybe today will be the day your letter makes its way to the post office box. We will never stop looking for Lauren. We will never give up. We are as determined today as we were on June 3rd."

    Charlene Spierer
    http://www.fox59.com/news/wxin-mothe...6298135.column
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  33. #743
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    I'm sorry for asking but can someone please post pics of the persons of interested, especially DR - I haven't seen pictures yet. My pc is very limited as to what sites I can connect to and mostly it shows violation and I cannot access pictures. Only have a pc at work....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jupiter812 View Post
    I'm not questioning whether it's possible or not. I know it is possible according to a local expert who was interviewed by the local paper about CR's alleged injury. I was pointing out that CR's amnesia claim begins 15 min before the punch, not after.
    I'm a little late, but I can confirm that in amnesia, often memories that haven't been "consolidated" at the time of the head injury are lost, too, so often memories before the injury are lost in addition to those afterward. How far back they are lost seems to be related to the extent of the injury.

    That said, it would have to be *quite* a punch to cause amnesia, and/or a lot of drugs/alcohol, which otherwise usually cause some haziness and loss of detail, but not a total blackout for all events.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northsider View Post
    Except they wouldn't have taken the route at 4:30 AM. We're talking about the trip that LS and CR took from 5N to Sports, which happened around 1:00 AM. And it's not a "dead zone" at all --- Jake's nightclub is between 10th and 9th, as are a few other non-drinking establishments.
    I don't know the area at all, but I don't always take the same route, especially if going "to" the place I have company and if leaving "from" the place I'm alone. If I'm alone, I'm much less likely to walk down an alley and much more likely to take whatever I perceive as the better-lit and safer option. If I'm with a guy, I'm likely to take whatever route he prefers, especially if it's shorter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebirdii View Post
    I'm sorry for asking but can someone please post pics of the persons of interested, especially DR - I haven't seen pictures yet. My pc is very limited as to what sites I can connect to and mostly it shows violation and I cannot access pictures. Only have a pc at work....
    Here ya go, Bluebirdi
    Attached Files Attached Files
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  38. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by bessie View Post
    bbm

    Charlene Spierer did offer a lifeline early on in the form of an anonymous post office box, to no avail.
    With all due respect does anyone really believe that anonymous PO box would really be anonymous? That letter would immediately become evidence and would be subjected to fingerprinting, DNA analysis, handwriting analysis, tracing on the paper and envelope to suppliers, etc...

    The family very well could be totally exasperated but they can't vacillate between maybe offering leniency and sounding like they want to drop the hammer. One negates the other. Unless the family and LE want to come together and offer some type of limited immunity or limited prosecution for certain scenarios, and consistently offer that, I don't see them making much headway at this point with getting someone to come forward. I don't think the letter has helped anything at all except to understand the family's emotional state still.

    It seems to me the best way for the 'flies with honey' approach to work would be over the long haul anyway. Let the situation weigh on people and if it truly was an accident of some sort and if they understand exactly what they can expect to happen to them if they come forward, maybe they do finally come forward.

    They are asking someone to walk into a buzzsaw right now (or for someone's friend to push them into one). We might all agree that could be what they deserve for what they've put the family thru, but if you step back and think about the family getting some closure then IMHO this is a better tactic to at least try and stick with. At least for a scenario that at it's root would be the result of an accident and panic. If it's some other type of scenario such as random abduction or she was somehow targeted intentionally then the letter probably doesn't matter much what it says anyway.

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    So randomly late last night I'm flipping through channels and I come across a documentary reality show about sex slavery. The first episode I caught the tail end. The following episode was about modern day sex slavery in Detroit.

    The interesting thing about this show was the facts presented that Detroit is a very popular city for this type of activity. Some resort to this because of high unemployment rates, etc. One thing they mentioned is the city is a transitional place for traffickers because it is the end of I-75 and a lot of truckers end up there. Also, it isn't far from the border of Canada....

    While watching the show, it became apparent that anyone can fall into this activity, by force or by choice. Not saying this is where LS is, but obviously 1 if not 2 POIs, JR and DB have ties to Detroit. While we have no definitive facts about DB being named by LE, it did make me think of one thing, that no one mentioned.

    What if DB really already left and never was at the Runcible Spoon at 10am. Is it possible for me, you, or even JR given log-in info for DB's twitter account, to place that tweet from any phone to create a suitable alibi?

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  42. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by akh View Post
    The family very well could be totally exasperated but they can't vacillate between maybe offering leniency and sounding like they want to drop the hammer. One negates the other. Unless the family and LE want to come together and offer some type of limited immunity or limited prosecution for certain scenarios, and consistently offer that, I don't see them making much headway at this point with getting someone to come forward. I don't think the letter has helped anything at all except to understand the family's emotional state still. <snipped>
    I don't think they have offered leniency, only anonymity. I'm not sure how they could offer leniency, even if they wanted to...

    IMO, even if it was an accident/ panic situation, we are long past that now. I doubt any letter or appeal to morality is going to convince the person(s) responsible to come forward at this point. The letters might, however, serve as a reminder to the person - and to the public - that the search for Lauren is ongoing. Or, possibly convince a third party with information to come forward or submit an anonymous tip. I think that if there are people who initially did not come forward with information because they were protecting friends, nine months is also enough time for loyalties to shift, for reality to sink in, and for people to grow up a little...

    Re: submitting anonymous tips -- Early on, some posters in this forum detailed uber-cautious ways tips could be sent anonymously by mail (sending an envelope addressed in another envelope addressed to a post office, etc.) Or simply go to a public library and submit an anonymous email. Or call Crimestoppers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmorejames View Post
    What if DB really already left and never was at the Runcible Spoon at 10am. Is it possible for me, you, or even JR given log-in info for DB's twitter account, to place that tweet from any phone to create a suitable alibi?
    I don't think a tweet in itself would be a suitable alibi, but sure - anyone could log in with another username. Wouldn't the cell phone records give it away though?

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