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Thread: GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #12

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    More than one pair, and listed here as "undergarments"?
    The Telegraph article said "a pair of the victim’s underwear" so I'm assuming they mean one singular piece of underwear. Even though they said "undergarments", it's kind of like saying "panties" or a "pair of panties" even though there was only one item (panty). Weird.

    Of course, I have no idea, but I'm thinking its just poor wording on WMAZ's part.

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaconMom View Post
    I don't either. I just found his comment interesting because it confirms this story is true.

    Can't say that I'm not interested in getting a new bit of evidence to consider though.. And who knows, maybe this was deliberately leaked regardless of what Winters said.
    bbm: That's kind of what I'm thinking -- because, otherwise, why wouldn't he have stopped at "no comment"...? (Unless it's NOT true but he wants to give the impression it is...?? Nah...)

    I'd been getting rumors of something to this effect for several days (may have been out there earlier, but I hadn't heard it, if so) and so was thinking it was maybe a grand jury leak. Now... I don't know. Bet Telegraph was hearing rumors too and got someone they felt comfortable enough with as reliable to confirm...

    During this crucial time before the arraignment, wouldn't surprise me if they "leaked" some things to put pressure on for a confession or willingness to deal ...? Just as I'm sure the defense is playing its cards with great care, too. It's bound to be an interesting, tense interval, IMO.
    Last edited by Backwoods; 11-23-2011 at 04:22 PM. Reason: add comment

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    Leak theory is interesting, maybe Winters is setting the table for seeking the death penalty - Key concept here is that the murder was "outrageously or wantonly vile, horrible, or inhumane, and that [it] involved depravity of mind by the perpetrator." Her DNA was found on the "undergarments" , so I am assuming he did not just sneak them out of her dresser drawer during one of his break-ins to her apartment. Perhaps he took them off her dead body before or after engaging in a little necrophilia ?

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  7. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgentFrankLundy View Post
    Leak theory is interesting, maybe Winters is setting the table for seeking the death penalty - Key concept here is that the murder was "outrageously or wantonly vile, horrible, or inhumane, and that [it] involved depravity of mind by the perpetrator." Her DNA was found on the "undergarments" , so I am assuming he did not just sneak them out of her dresser drawer during one of his break-ins to her apartment. Perhaps he took them off her dead body before or after engaging in a little necrophilia ?
    BBM: He could have taken them out of the dirty clothes hamper though. :/

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    Quote Originally Posted by bessie View Post
    Sickening, but can't say I'm surprised. Poor Lauren. She mentioned Macon "hoodlums" in that e-mail to her bf, but I wonder if that wasn't a cover. I mean, was it actually McD she feared? Did she try to brush it off and tell herself she was imagining things? From all we've learned about Lauren, I think she was too astute not to pick up on the vibes that were probably coming through the walls! She must've known and was probably counting the hours until she would be out of there.
    bessie, I still go 'round and 'round about that email...

    Early on, everyone wondered if it was written by the perp.

    It could be, in its entirety, written by Lauren, and with no hidden meanings, no outside interference.

    Or your theory in your post above might fit.

    Or -- if the email was as detailed as the article we had from The Washington Post indicated it was...
    (and here's the link again, for anyone who missed that article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...IzI_story.html )
    ...then couldn't it be that Lauren took some time composing it and it was still on her computer, not sent, when she was attacked ... and the perp may have made some changes or additions? ETA: And maybe even have held off and then sent with timing that would throw off the real timeline?

    It's always seemed to me that it just "must" hold some kind of clue. But of course, it may not -- it may be important only (and so sadly) in that it was Lauren's last email ...
    Last edited by Backwoods; 11-23-2011 at 08:54 PM. Reason: add a thought I omitted

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  11. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaconMom View Post
    BBM: He could have taken them out of the dirty clothes hamper though. :/
    That's very true. Also -- I really don't know -- would just a regular washing remove all the owner's DNA, to the point that none could be detected, or degrade it so that it couldn't be identified? (My point being that, possibly, they also could have come straight from her lingerie drawer...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Backwoods View Post
    That's very true. Also -- I really don't know -- would just a regular washing remove all the owner's DNA, to the point that none could be detected, or degrade it so that it couldn't be identified? (My point being that, possibly, they also could have come straight from her lingerie drawer...)
    BBM: I did a little Googling, and I think the answer is "it depends". Check out this page which is the clearest answer I was able to find:

    http://www.leelofland.com/wordpress/?p=489

    The man who writes this blog is a police investigator. He states "Dry cleaning won’t destroy DNA. However, it may remove it from the clothing. The same is true for a washing machine, it doesn’t destroy DNA, but it may rinse it away. The DNA will be squeaky clean, too.". Based on this and other pages I looked at, whether or not washing the garment would remove DNA can depend on factors like how hot the water was and if bleach was used. Not to be gross but underwear could probably have quite a bit of DNA on it, so it might stay in the fibers better when washed more so than something like a shirt or pants. Sounds like it could be from either clean or dirty undergarments, but my guess is the latter just because SMD is such a creeper.

    Again, I am not a DNA expert at all so I have no clue. Just relating what I found on Google.

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    DNA can be extracted from traces on blood on laundered clothing, so I think the same would be true of other bodily secretions that contain protein. Coincidentally, I was just reading this last night in relation to another case, and still had it opened in a tab on my browser. It's from a 2002 State of Texas Attorney General's Office News Release. Totally unrelated to this case, but just noting for reference.

    Blood traces from Mays' laundered clothing revealed DNA that linked to the victims' DNA.
    https://www.oag.state.tx.us/newspubs...9factsmays.htm

    Laundered or not, it appears that the panties found in McD's apartment did contain Lauren's DNA. Whether or not the DNA could have been taken from laundered panties is relevant because if so, and the panties were in fact clean, it suggests that McD's obsession had reached a dangerous level before Lauren was murdered (unless you choose to believe he stole the panties from her drawer after he killed her). Laundered or not, I'm willing to bet he stole them at a time prior to the murder.
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  17. #84
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    It's possible that SMD took the panties from the laundry room while Lauren's clothes were being washed. I'm assuming she didn't have a washer and dryer in her apartment. We know he could have accessed her apartment at any time, but that doesn't mean the panties were taken from her apartment.

    I can picture the defense saying the panties must have gotten mixed in with his laundry, or something along those lines. I guess it would matter if they were clean or not in that case. I'm also curious to know where in his apartment they were found - as in, did he have them hidden away somewhere? Obviously he never expected his apartment to be searched.

    I think I read in the Lisa Irwin forum about bodies giving off decomposition chemicals immediately following death. I'm probably using the wrong terminology but.. is there a way that it could be determined that Lauren was wearing the underwear at the time of death? If human remains dogs can smell decomposition in carpet, could they also smell it in clothing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaconMom View Post
    It's possible that SMD took the panties from the laundry room while Lauren's clothes were being washed. I'm assuming she didn't have a washer and dryer in her apartment. We know he could have accessed her apartment at any time, but that doesn't mean the panties were taken from her apartment.

    I can picture the defense saying the panties must have gotten mixed in with his laundry, or something along those lines. I guess it would matter if they were clean or not in that case. I'm also curious to know where in his apartment they were found - as in, did he have them hidden away somewhere? Obviously he never expected his apartment to be searched.

    I think I read in the Lisa Irwin forum about bodies giving off decomposition chemicals immediately following death. I'm probably using the wrong terminology but.. is there a way that it could be determined that Lauren was wearing the underwear at the time of death? If human remains dogs can smell decomposition in carpet, could they also smell it in clothing?
    He probably kept them in the same place he kept the stolen condoms. But I agree, MaconMom, Buford will say they were left behind in the dryer and got mixed up with McD's clothes or some such nonsense. The same way the 30 CP images crept onto his flash drive without his knowledge. Better yet, the "real killer" planted the underwear in his apartment right after he cut the grass at midnight, which McD didn't hear because he can sleep through "anything" except a guy standing outside his neighbor's door. You know, the same guy who picked up McD's hacksaw from the trash in the spring and used it to dismember Lauren's body two months later. I'll bet that guy was following McD online and carried out the murder and dismemberment in such a way as to directly resemble the directions in McD's posts. Or maybe it really was a zombie invastion after all. I dunno...
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  21. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backwoods View Post
    bessie, I still go 'round and 'round about that email...

    Early on, everyone wondered if it was written by the perp.

    It could be, in its entirety, written by Lauren, and with no hidden meanings, no outside interference.

    Or your theory in your post above might fit.

    Or -- if the email was as detailed as the article we had from The Washington Post indicated it was...
    (and here's the link again, for anyone who missed that article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...IzI_story.html )
    ...then couldn't it be that Lauren took some time composing it and it was still on her computer, not sent, when she was attacked ... and the perp may have made some changes or additions? ETA: And maybe even have held off and then sent with timing that would throw off the real timeline?

    It's always seemed to me that it just "must" hold some kind of clue. But of course, it may not -- it may be important only (and so sadly) in that it was Lauren's last email ...
    I suppose that's possible, Backwoods. Without seeing it and not knowing Lauren's writing style, it's hard to say. The Washington Post article makes it sound like she was writing from an emotional level, or in a stream of consciousness. If true, it would be difficult for another person to step in and emulate her voice. I also get the impression from this article, and it could be completely off base, that the comment about the "hoodlums" came in the middle of the letter. If the perp interjected that part into what she had already written, then I'd think there would be a noticeable break. On the other hand, the article does say it was "in passing", like an "oh, by the way" comment. As for timing, computer forensics will show how much time lapsed from when she started writing and when the e-mail was finally transmitted. So there might be a clue there. I'd think some of that information will eventually be made public during the trial, if there is one.
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  23. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaconMom View Post
    I think I read in the Lisa Irwin forum about bodies giving off decomposition chemicals immediately following death. I'm probably using the wrong terminology but.. is there a way that it could be determined that Lauren was wearing the underwear at the time of death? If human remains dogs can smell decomposition in carpet, could they also smell it in clothing?
    Sorry, I forgot to answer this earlier. Yes, the scent of decomp that occurs almost immediately after death is discernable to HRD dogs on a victim's clothing. So if LG was wearing the panties when she died, and the panties were in McD's apartment, the dogs could've hit on them during the search.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaconMom View Post
    is there a way that it could be determined that Lauren was wearing the underwear at the time of death? If human remains dogs can smell decomposition in carpet, could they also smell it in clothing?


    BBM and respectfully snipped for space:
    Yes.

    Also, something I thought of- not sure if it is true for forensic analysis of DNA in a lab environment, but we can only extract DNA for scent training (in dogs) from white blood cells.

    I wonder if this is how it works in the lab?
    Last edited by bessie; 11-24-2011 at 12:07 PM. Reason: fixed broken quote

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  27. #89
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    For MaconMom and anyone else who might've missed it, Oriah and Sarx answered quite a few questions for us about SAR and HRD dogs in the first several pages of the previous thread starting at the beginning of the second page (09/01/11, 4:39 am):

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...148296&page=12

    The other day I copied some of them to the "K-9 SAR Question and Answer" thread in our Websleuths Resources forum.

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125709"]K9 SAR Questions & Answers - Ask the Pros! - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


    Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!
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  29. #90
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    from Macon television station FOX24's web site:

    QUOTE:

    Bibb D.A. & Defense Attorney Buford React on Giddings Evidence Leak

    ...
    Bibb County District Attorney Greg Winters says he wishes it had not been released, but says it will not have any effect on the evidence available for trial. The reports remain unconfirmed including the fact that the supposed under garment found in McDaniel's apartment has Giddings' DNA. ...

    read more at: http://www.newscentralga.com/news/lo...134424378.html

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  31. #91
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    wow, I think we missed THIS one from FOX24:

    QUOTE:

    FOX FOCUS: DA Greg Winters On Giddings Homicide Case

    NewsCentral's Linnie Supall sits down with District Attorney Greg Winters to discuss the indictment of Stephen McDaniel for the murder of Mercer Law School graduate, Lauren Giddings.

    http://www.newscentralga.com/news/fo...133930603.html

    ETA: Of course, since this is from Nov. 15, we now know that the bond hearing discussed in the interview was cancelled.

    Also, want to add this link, which is to the station's newscast coverage (also on the 15th) of the indictment. Thought we looked at this, but maybe it was updated...? (Or maybe I missed the video portion first time around.) Anyhow, it now includes portions, but not all, of the above interview, plus. (Apologies if this is a repeat.)

    QUOTE:
    McDaniel Indicted for Murder of Mercer Law Grad

    read and view at: http://www.newscentralga.com/news/lo...133930543.html
    Last edited by Backwoods; 11-24-2011 at 09:35 PM. Reason: add comment; add other link

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  33. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by bessie View Post
    He probably kept them in the same place he kept the stolen condoms. But I agree, MaconMom, Buford will say they were left behind in the dryer and got mixed up with McD's clothes or some such nonsense. The same way the 30 CP images crept onto his flash drive without his knowledge. Better yet, the "real killer" planted the underwear in his apartment right after he cut the grass at midnight, which McD didn't hear because he can sleep through "anything" except a guy standing outside his neighbor's door. You know, the same guy who picked up McD's hacksaw from the trash in the spring and used it to dismember Lauren's body two months later. I'll bet that guy was following McD online and carried out the murder and dismemberment in such a way as to directly resemble the directions in McD's posts. Or maybe it really was a zombie invastion after all. I dunno...
    What is sad is someone out there will be spreading this as gospel. However, you did make me spew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AgentFrankLundy View Post
    Yes, there sure were a lot of "We don't know" and "I don't know" responses. Like , why even bother posting the question . I hope they will work on finding out the answers , some of them were pretty good questions:
    Don't know what, if anything, was found inside McD's car.
    Don't know if DA will seek death penalty
    Don't know if anythings been received from the FBI
    Don't know if they found chain mail in McD's apartment
    Don't know if he has seen a psychiatrist
    Don't know the difference between malice murder and felony murder or why GJ indictment differed from original warrant
    Don't know if McD can watch TV
    Don't know what Buford's Private Eye is up to or who he even is
    Don't know if LE has ruled out all other persons of interest.

    But , as said earlier, there will be a story on the relationship between the two , and , if I am reading between the lines correctly it sounds like old Glenda isn't quite so happy to hear her phone ring when its Amy Leigh or Joe on the other end.
    Same sheit, just a different day............Nothing new

    As for Mama G, I wouldn't either.......Of course she doesnt' want to think her son is guilty and even if she is inclined to, she wouldn't want to talk to media, we wouldn't either probably. I dont' think she made her son a murderer, she just didnt' hone in on the key points to divert his thinking and even if he was prone to anything untowards, had she done something differently as a parent, he may have just turned out to be a pervert and not a murderer too. We as parents can't FIX everything, everyone OR our kids. We can only try. She tried in the only way SHE KNEW HOW. Some have vision, some dont'. I'm sorry, jmho

    It is frustrating that she doesnt' want to admit it, but it aint my business and she's not on trial. Soon enough her son will be in jail permanent or get the death penalty. Then she'll either face it or still be in denial. What a life in store for her. Too sad.

    For anyone.........about the panties........ Who leaked the panty story?? and why else would her undies be in his apt if not guilty becuase I think everyone is quite certain she wasn't having an affair with McD, and if she was, why would McD say she just vanished or whatever and then get rid of the evidence. What a dummy

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    Quote Originally Posted by bessie View Post
    Sorry, I forgot to answer this earlier. Yes, the scent of decomp that occurs almost immediately after death is discernable to HRD dogs on a victim's clothing. So if LG was wearing the panties when she died, and the panties were in McD's apartment, the dogs could've hit on them during the search.
    My confusion was that "decomposition" was related to decay in regards to the odor or break down of the out cells leaving traces for the scent dogs

    BUT UPON further reading, (I'll post site as soon as it all loads, trouble loading for some reason) "Decomposition" , the term used (as oposed to any decomp "odor" which was in my mind, the later stages of decomp) begins 4 minutes after death occurs and is called autolysis – or self-digestion. From what I can see is that ammonia builds up in the lungs and is emitted from the nose and mouth.

    You do not get the odor of decay for a while longer.

    So it seems that if the LE are calling it decomposition, (in regards to scent dogs hit in McD apt) then the dogs can also dectect early decomposition or "autolyses" as opposed to decay causing odor and break down of the out cells of the body which occurs later.

    I'm thinking there was no "odor" in McD apt but the dogs did hit on decomp scent. So since the torso in the trash was grossly decomposed (as it was reported there was a an odor emitting from the garbage) then I wonder which scent the dogs hit on and if her body was decaying in HIS apt, fridge or another? Could that hit be from the early stages of her death. Maybe she entered his apt as he lured her there.

    Was there anything in her apt? I dont' recall that there was. ONly McD.

    Just ramblings and observations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomkat View Post
    My confusion was that "decomposition" was related to decay in regards to the odor or break down of the out cells leaving traces for the scent dogs

    BUT UPON further reading, (I'll post site as soon as it all loads, trouble loading for some reason) "Decomposition" , the term used (as oposed to any decomp "odor" which was in my mind, the later stages of decomp) begins 4 minutes after death occurs and is called autolysis – or self-digestion. From what I can see is that ammonia builds up in the lungs and is emitted from the nose and mouth.

    You do not get the odor of decay for a while longer.

    So it seems that if the LE are calling it decomposition, (in regards to scent dogs hit in McD apt) then the dogs can also dectect early decomposition or "autolyses" as opposed to decay causing odor and break down of the out cells of the body which occurs later.

    I'm thinking there was no "odor" in McD apt but the dogs did hit on decomp scent. So since the torso in the trash was grossly decomposed (as it was reported there was a an odor emitting from the garbage) then I wonder which scent the dogs hit on and if her body was decaying in HIS apt, fridge or another? Could that hit be from the early stages of her death. Maybe she entered his apt as he lured her there.

    Was there anything in her apt? I dont' recall that there was. ONly McD.

    Just ramblings and observations.
    Also, if the autolysis is emitted from nose and mouth, does it stay in the air or can it permeate through items around it?

    Also, the dogs hit on the undies but were these dogs looking for the scent of Lauren or Decomposition when those were discovered in his apt?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomkat View Post
    Also, if the autolysis is emitted from nose and mouth, does it stay in the air or can it permeate through items around it?

    Also, the dogs hit on the undies but were these dogs looking for the scent of Lauren or Decomposition when those were discovered in his apt?
    I'm kinda confused about the question(S)- but if you can clarify, I can probably try and explain...?

    TIA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomkat View Post
    Also, if the autolysis is emitted from nose and mouth, does it stay in the air or can it permeate through items around it?

    Also, the dogs hit on the undies but were these dogs looking for the scent of Lauren or Decomposition when those were discovered in his apt?
    bbm: It hasn't been reported that a garment was found by one of the dogs hitting on it. (We were just speculating about whether one might have.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Backwoods View Post
    bbm: It hasn't been reported that a garment was found by one of the dogs hitting on it. (We were just speculating about whether one might have.)
    I was just speculating if it did too. I am putting my thoughts on websleuth about decomposition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomkat View Post
    I was just speculating if it did too. I am putting my thoughts on websleuth about decomposition.
    Sorry, tomkat, guess I misunderstood.

    Also, on your question a few posts back about whether the dogs hit in Lauren's apartment: At the commitment hearing on the murder charge, Detective Patterson testified that the HRD dog hit in Lauren's apartment, yes. (But I don't think he gave any info as to where in her apartment or on what.)

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    This is going off the topic of the underwear, but I've been meaning to mention this for awhile, so ...

    As I've read more and more on WebSleuths, it has struck me how important cell phone pings (and other cell phone info) have become in so many cases -- almost ubiquitous, it seems.

    And I've thought, we've heard surprisingly little about that in this case.

    Of course, if Lauren was killed in the apartment complex ... and since it was learned so quickly that she was deceased ... it makes sense that we did not hear as much of that info about her phone as we often do about a victim's phone when the "missing" status continues longer.

    But just pondering on the topic has surely gotten me curious about any phone clues about Stephen! I'm thinking, if he is the killer and he drove somewhere to dispose of remains, they could be pretty important. Of course, he certainly could be plenty savvy about pings and such and leave his phone behind ... but, if he is guilty, he certainly made other "mistakes" ... so I can't help but wonder.

    Sometimes I have wondered if he even had a cell? It's hard to comprehend that a young law school student would not, I know -- but sometimes he strikes me as someone who might want to "stay off the grid" to the extent that he could. Guess he probably did have a cell, but ...

    Just some thoughts.

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  5. GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #3
    By bessie in forum Recently Sentenced and Beyond
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    Last Post: 07-27-2011, 12:43 AM

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