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Thread: PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #8

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    PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #8

    This is the thread on Ray Gricar, the former district attorney of Centre County, PA. Please continue the discussion here.

    Previous threads:

    Part 1 [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22202"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


    Part 2 [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26431"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


    Part 3 [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32620"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


    Part 4 [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39539"]PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


    Part 5 [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73076"]PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #5 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


    Part 6 [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134500"]PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #6 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


    Part 7 [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154352"]PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #7 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
    Last edited by J. J. in Phila; 12-07-2011 at 01:27 AM.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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    From the previous thread:

    Bellaneph

    can someone start new thread?
    Even though some on here have certain feelings about Patty, I got the feeling Ray really liked Patty. Putting a car in someone's name is nothing to sneeze at. Maybe it even showed some predetermination on his part about his leaving eventually or just worked out well in the end by chance, but either way, it was his choice to put the car in her name. I also got the feeling that he liked her as a person even though he might not have been as in love with her as she was with him. Either way, I'm not so sure (as Allison stated earlier) that his leaving had anything to do with Patty. He probably didn't say anything because that would defeat the point, wouldn't it?

    As for the laptop/hard drive. Maybe he thought he would get another drive and threw in the hard drive and then thought about it for a few minutes after and decided it wasn't such a good idea to call attention to the hard drive by buying a new one. That might make people think "what happened to the old one?" And if someone recognized him buying a new hard drive after he disappeared, that would be a problem. Ray didn't expect anyone to find the old hard drive after all.....So, I think it was just a change in plan thinking he'd cover his tracks better. He didn't need his laptop then anyway and it was just safer to buy a whole computer later.
    That could explain tossing the laptop. A murderer tossing it could be a similar explanation, simply to get rid of it.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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    Bellaneph


    Quote:
    can someone start new thread?
    Even though some on here have certain feelings about Patty, I got the feeling Ray really liked Patty. Putting a car in someone's name is nothing to sneeze at. Maybe it even showed some predetermination on his part about his leaving eventually or just worked out well in the end by chance, but either way, it was his choice to put the car in her name. I also got the feeling that he liked her as a person even though he might not have been as in love with her as she was with him. Either way, I'm not so sure (as Allison stated earlier) that his leaving had anything to do with Patty. He probably didn't say anything because that would defeat the point, wouldn't it?

    As for the laptop/hard drive. Maybe he thought he would get another drive and threw in the hard drive and then thought about it for a few minutes after and decided it wasn't such a good idea to call attention to the hard drive by buying a new one. That might make people think "what happened to the old one?" And if someone recognized him buying a new hard drive after he disappeared, that would be a problem. Ray didn't expect anyone to find the old hard drive after all.....So, I think it was just a change in plan thinking he'd cover his tracks better. He didn't need his laptop then anyway and it was just safer to buy a whole computer later.


    Thanks for your comments, Bellaneph. I had to digest a bit of your comment here, and I see some good rationalization. In my mind, I am trying to see behaviors of RFG that would point toward him leaving (like not coming back willingly). The intricacy of the relationship with PF is a difficult Red Flag to toss here from the sidelines.

    The only thing I may counter with you is about the laptop. It did not 'belong' to him. That was County property, and he had already demonstrated concern (with the erasure stuff and all). If he was planning on returning, the old toss over the bridge routine does not truly resolve anything for him, property-wise. With him just buying a new laptop/drive leaves an open loop for him, ethically.

    So, again, I look more toward finality. If he tosses it (hard-drive as well), his intent is that he is Walking. And as JJ just mentioned, the Murder scenario plays out just the same.

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    Yesterday, 09:03 PM
    AllisonS

    I think the last few weeks have been very much an emotional rollercoaster on this case. The Sandusky case was disheartening, then the blonde, big haired woman was a new hope in a positive direction. I think there are going to be more ups and downs before this is all over and I hope everyone hangs in here for the long haul...I think the discussion is very informative and helpful !


    Thank you. Could not have been expressed any better.

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    From JJ's comment previous thread:

    If IB is accurate, it might be positive in terms of a solution, but it might not in terms of what happened to RFG. This could very easily point to foul play.

    I have a hard time figuring out why a helper would get into the Mini. Presumably, a helper would have transportation and RFG would realize the car would be checked, forensically.
    __________________


    Yes, the car was clean forensically, but the ashes and slight smell of smoke...and his turned off cell phone...I'm tossing the Red Flag here. RFG's concern of forensics at this point go out the window. I still see someone sitting sideways on the passenger seat, door swung open and having themselves a wee bit of a Puff ! RFG's intent ? He's Walking. I see the Foul Play more likely AFTER, if that happened. First and foremost, look at the Walkaway behavior. I sense that more now...then the likelyhood of Foul Play may follow.

    PS: This in some way gets back to your Blog, Short Walk to Death....just that we now have an added twist with IB !!!

    Added: For need to know...IB is reference to Ivy Butterworth, our 'new witness'.
    Last edited by Lord_Chatterly; 12-07-2011 at 11:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Chatterly View Post

    The only thing I may counter with you is about the laptop. It did not 'belong' to him. That was County property, and he had already demonstrated concern (with the erasure stuff and all). If he was planning on returning, the old toss over the bridge routine does not truly resolve anything for him, property-wise. With him just buying a new laptop/drive leaves an open loop for him, ethically.

    So, again, I look more toward finality. If he tosses it (hard-drive as well), his intent is that he is Walking. And as JJ just mentioned, the Murder scenario plays out just the same.
    I disagree a bit. We know RFG didn't what was on the laptop to see the light of day, which is perfectly rational, if he had personal data on it. He also knew that the data was on the drive, and not the remaining components of the laptop (he did the searches).

    If this was just data destruction, why toss the laptop itself? Maybe RFG didn't want anyone to know he had removed the drive. Maybe RFG tossed the drive and someone else tossed the laptop.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    I disagree a bit. We know RFG didn't what was on the laptop to see the light of day, which is perfectly rational, if he had personal data on it. He also knew that the data was on the drive, and not the remaining components of the laptop (he did the searches).

    If this was just data destruction, why toss the laptop itself? Maybe RFG didn't want anyone to know he had removed the drive. Maybe RFG tossed the drive and someone else tossed the laptop.
    Hey, I'm ok with that ! It could work BOTH ways, really. Putting myself in RFG's shoes, and with walkaway my intent, with a new identity to step into, why even carry with you a laptop (even without the drive) on your 'New Person' ? If he is found out, the laptop identifies him. In short, he has to cut the cord with everything related to that Burdensome Laptop .

    Added: RFG is already demonstrating that he is 'traveling lightly'.
    Last edited by Lord_Chatterly; 12-07-2011 at 11:58 AM.

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    The Spotts Observation

    http://www.centredaily.com/2006/05/1...sed-leads.html

    This has always bothered me. An important scheduling for a death penalty case. Again, I am looking at WITNESSED behavior. Especially with RFG looking away, at the bookcases and says..."I will not be here" ...charge me with a time out, but I am Tossing the Red Flag from the sidelines.

    Methinks Ray is On His Way !

    Added: Timeline...March 9th, 2005...chambers of Judge Brown. Besides Spotts, did LE ever question
    Judge Brown of RFG's behavior at that time ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    I disagree a bit. We know RFG didn't what was on the laptop to see the light of day, which is perfectly rational, if he had personal data on it. He also knew that the data was on the drive, and not the remaining components of the laptop (he did the searches).

    If this was just data destruction, why toss the laptop itself? Maybe RFG didn't want anyone to know he had removed the drive. Maybe RFG tossed the drive and someone else tossed the laptop.
    Or, and I know this is probably WAY too much coincidence...RG tossed the hard drive with all intentions of returning home to his life and buying a replacement hard drive...and then something went wrong (along the murder scenario here) and the persons responsible tossed the rest of the computer because they didn't want to leave it behind as possible evidence or didn't know what it was doing there and just wanted it gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonS View Post
    Or, and I know this is probably WAY too much coincidence...RG tossed the hard drive with all intentions of returning home to his life and buying a replacement hard drive...and then something went wrong (along the murder scenario here) and the persons responsible tossed the rest of the computer because they didn't want to leave it behind as possible evidence or didn't know what it was doing there and just wanted it gone.
    Yes, what you say is possible...my only concern would be this: 1) RFG tosses Hard Drive himself (with either intent of Walkaway...then The Short Walk to Death I had mentioned earlier (JJ's Blog from some time ago).

    2) Somebody else tosses the laptop.

    Here's the 'stretch' : How in the world were these two items FOUND so close to each other ? The coincidence you speak of has odds like you or me hitting the Lottery for a Million Bucks !!!

    I think if Foul Play, the laptop would have been ditched in a more Unlikely place...just a thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Chatterly View Post
    Yes, what you say is possible...my only concern would be this: 1) RFG tosses Hard Drive himself (with either intent of Walkaway...then The Short Walk to Death I had mentioned earlier (JJ's Blog from some time ago).

    2) Somebody else tosses the laptop.

    Here's the 'stretch' : How in the world were these two items FOUND so close to each other ? The coincidence you speak of has odds like you or me hitting the Lottery for a Million Bucks !!!

    I think if Foul Play, the laptop would have been ditched in a more Unlikely place...just a thought.
    I know and agree, but is it possible (yeah, lottery odds again) that it was dumped somewhere else upriver and ended up in relatively the same spot as the hard drive? Maybe there is something in that area that "catches" stuff in the water as it flows by..sandbanks or weeds?

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    BB was inaccurately quoted on the blonde part of the Butterworth sighting.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonS View Post
    Or, and I know this is probably WAY too much coincidence...RG tossed the hard drive with all intentions of returning home to his life and buying a replacement hard drive...and then something went wrong (along the murder scenario here) and the persons responsible tossed the rest of the computer because they didn't want to leave it behind as possible evidence or didn't know what it was doing there and just wanted it gone.
    That is actually my thought in the murder scenario. It may not be that coincidental.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    BB was inaccurately quoted on the blonde part of the Butterworth sighting.
    Ut Oh !!! Pray tell ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Chatterly View Post
    Ut Oh !!! Pray tell ...
    Blog up on it.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Blog up on it.
    Wow ... I'm in deep Doo Doo now. Thanks...I knew you were 'Up to something' this AM. Many thanks, JJ.

    I think there is merit enough yet at this point to have stirred something up. Geesh, I better make a fresh pot of Java...

    ...I was wondering when ur Sporadic "Blonde" sighting was going to hit...see ya all in a bit, and thanks again.

    LC

    Added:http://www.centredaily.com/2011/12/0.../a-blonde.html

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    Hard Drive

    I find it very hard to create a scenario in my mind in which a murderer ditches the hard drive and laptop in that river. That doesn't make any sense. First, we KNOW Ray wanted to get rid of the hard drive. So the fact it was "gotten rid of" points to him anyway. Second, if it was the murderer who got rid of the laptop and hard drive, I would think he would want to look at it first to make sure it was the right one. How would the murderer know that that laptop was the one with the "secret" information on it? He wouldn't, unless he saw it. And no one has mentioned another person sitting alone in a car for a while looking at a laptop by street of shops that day. I can't imagine a murderer would kill ray, take the laptop and toss it right next to Ray's car without looking at it. That doesn't make sense. The only way I see a murderer tossing the laptop is if he takes it somewhere else and looks at it and disposes of it far from the scene. It just doesn't fit with the little information we do have. Also, how would the murderer know there weren't other copies of the data elsewhere. And I really doubt a murderer would take the time to remove the hard drive from the laptop when he needs to flee the scene quickly. It doesn't fit.

    Whether or not it was Ray's laptop or he was borrowing it from work doesn't make me think any differently. You say that like it might have been a deterrent because it wasn't his. Being in his situation, and especially with what might have been on the laptop (which might have even been criminal for all we know) I really don't think he was thinking about littering, polluting the environment or the fact that the laptop wasn't actually his. I think getting rid of the whole thing in the end made whatever he had to do better.

    Think about it. You need to disappear for whatever reason. You have information on your laptop (which doesn't quite belong to you) which may point to where you are or what you did or something you don't want anyone knowing about. You gonna worry about littering or the fish or damaging work property and risk everything? I don't think so. You take the safest and best route to achieve your goal. Unless you're really stupid and idt Ray is. Small moral breaches pale in comparison to pretending you're dead and disappearing leaving everyone and everything you ever knew behind.

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    Sandusky has been re arrested. I have my eye on him still...he has the coldest eyes I have ever seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Chatterly View Post
    Wow ... I'm in deep Doo Doo now. Thanks...I knew you were 'Up to something' this AM. Many thanks, JJ.

    I think there is merit enough yet at this point to have stirred something up. Geesh, I better make a fresh pot of Java...

    ...I was wondering when ur Sporadic "Blonde" sighting was going to hit...see ya all in a bit, and thanks again.

    LC

    Added:http://www.centredaily.com/2011/12/0.../a-blonde.html
    Unless you wrote the story in the DI, you are not in any kind of doo doo. It is a potential sighting, just not as strong as we thought it was yesterday. And I just heard from BB about a half hour before it was posted.

    Contrary to the article, I didn't want people think it had been confirmed. I also didn't want a repeat of the man in Utah.
    Last edited by J. J. in Phila; 12-07-2011 at 04:48 PM.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellaneph View Post
    I find it very hard to create a scenario in my mind in which a murderer ditches the hard drive and laptop in that river. That doesn't make any sense. First, we KNOW Ray wanted to get rid of the hard drive. So the fact it was "gotten rid of" points to him anyway. Second, if it was the murderer who got rid of the laptop and hard drive, I would think he would want to look at it first to make sure it was the right one. How would the murderer know that that laptop was the one with the "secret" information on it? He wouldn't, unless he saw it. And no one has mentioned another person sitting alone in a car for a while looking at a laptop by street of shops that day. I can't imagine a murderer would kill ray, take the laptop and toss it right next to Ray's car without looking at it. That doesn't make sense. The only way I see a murderer tossing the laptop is if he takes it somewhere else and looks at it and disposes of it far from the scene. It just doesn't fit with the little information we do have. Also, how would the murderer know there weren't other copies of the data elsewhere. And I really doubt a murderer would take the time to remove the hard drive from the laptop when he needs to flee the scene quickly. It doesn't fit.

    Whether or not it was Ray's laptop or he was borrowing it from work doesn't make me think any differently. You say that like it might have been a deterrent because it wasn't his. Being in his situation, and especially with what might have been on the laptop (which might have even been criminal for all we know) I really don't think he was thinking about littering, polluting the environment or the fact that the laptop wasn't actually his. I think getting rid of the whole thing in the end made whatever he had to do better.

    Think about it. You need to disappear for whatever reason. You have information on your laptop (which doesn't quite belong to you) which may point to where you are or what you did or something you don't want anyone knowing about. You gonna worry about littering or the fish or damaging work property and risk everything? I don't think so. You take the safest and best route to achieve your goal. Unless you're really stupid and idt Ray is. Small moral breaches pale in comparison to pretending you're dead and disappearing leaving everyone and everything you ever knew behind.

    These are valid points. One point is that RFG wanted to remove the data for about a year prior to his disappearance. The only question that I have is if this was related to his disappearance.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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    Bellaneph: Whether or not it was Ray's laptop or he was borrowing it from work doesn't make me think any differently. You say that like it might have been a deterrent because it wasn't his. Being in his situation, and especially with what might have been on the laptop (which might have even been criminal for all we know) I really don't think he was thinking about littering, polluting the environment or the fact that the laptop wasn't actually his. I think getting rid of the whole thing in the end made whatever he had to do better.


    Thanks for your response, and well thought out. You mention 'deterrent'...very interesting. That would come into play if he was planning on returning. On the way out (or if Foul Play), the HD AND the laptop are disposed. This is what I was trying to illustrate. Also, your comment (not highlighted here) concerning the matter of time (getting it all over with quickly) is a valuable insight. Many thanks for your contributions.

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    Will the Real Lewisburg Mystery Woman Plz Stand Up

    Quote Originally Posted by minazoe View Post
    Sandusky has been re arrested. I have my eye on him still...he has the coldest eyes I have ever seen.
    I agree with you. Watching HLN just now as I Post to you...what a mess, and about time they got him with these additional charges. I'm sure the PSU thread is hopping on this right now. Good to hear from you.
    Last edited by Lord_Chatterly; 12-07-2011 at 05:35 PM.

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    Will the Real Lewisburg Mystery Woman Plz Stand Up

    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Unless you wrote the story in the DI, you are not in any kind of doo doo. It is a potential sighting, just not as strong as we thought it was yesterday. And I just heard from BB about a half hour before it was posted.

    Contrary to the article, I didn't want people think it had been confirmed. I also didn't want a repeat of the man in Utah.
    Glad you heard back from BB. I'm impressed. BB had been friends with RFG, so that says something. Good thinking on the John Doe from Utah...guess I'll scratch my plans for using his photo as an Avatar
    Last edited by Lord_Chatterly; 12-07-2011 at 05:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Chatterly View Post
    Glad you heard back from BB. I'm impressed. BB had been friends with RFG, so that says something. Good thinking on the John Doe from Utah...guess I'll scratch my plans for using his photo as an Avatar
    The friend part isn't that important. He was briefed by DZ in May of 2005, along with the other area DA's, so he knew what they said about the LMW.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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    Occam's Razor

    Regarding the computer components and their disposal-
    Sometimes, a murderer will need to dispose of a victim's personal effects such as a woman's handbag or items of clothing..
    But they don't toss them off bridges, at least not in any case I am aware of, ever. I am sure there are rare exceptions to almost everything, LOL.
    (BTW, that's why the song " Ode To Billy Joe" was a hit.. People listening to the song kept wondering what BJ and the unnamed Mississippi girl threw off the bridge!! And they still do on websites devoted to the site. Mostly, the posters seemed normal too, LOL.)

    Why go drive up on a bridge, stop or slow down and toss out a victim's identifiable computer? No one erased/ defaced the computer body's serial number. ( The HD cannot positively be ID'd as belonging to the computer 100%, but the likelihood is great that the HD in evidence came from Ray's Microsystems laptop).

    Murder is usually difficult to hide, Remains are found, both human and material. Or someone sees suspicious activity and reports it, and their tips lead to apprehension of the perp. Or the perp. talked and someone snitched. Good people will report a crime, of course.

    If Ray was killed, and the murderer or murderers managed to kill him and dispose of his body, however minimal or crude the disposal method might have been, why stick around to goof with his computer on a bridge? Either grab it and take it with you far away from the crime scene area if there was compelling reason to want to know what it contained or to make it disappear, or leave it alone if it was " just a PC" owned by Ray to the perp. His cell phone was left. His car was conspicuously left.
    .
    For a short time I thought maybe the computer was related to the Sandusky crimes. in which case the computer might BE the motive for murder if victim photos were sent to Ray as DA or he otherwise discovered digital evidence. Now, after thinking about it, Sandusky seems to have been focused upon the minor children only. Not adults in any way nor was he very concerned about detection.
    JMO.

    I spent a great deal of time looking at documentation again. Old threads here, Karen Arnold's website, news links which still work..
    I wish Karen Arnold was still asking her questions. Once we discussed the " Paramour" word and I realized that I was not the only one to be put off by it, I could read the rest of her words objectively.
    Her talking points are compelling.
    Just needed to say that.
    UNLESS A LINK IS POSTED, MY POSTS REFLECT MY OPINION ONLY.

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